The Rumour Thread

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

Since GHB changes seem to be quite negatively received, maybe we should make a point to not buy it?

Orrrrr ... Make a point to play with the whole system, including the new points, for several games before passing judgment, maybe?

We have had a drip of info given to us for just a few days. The studio has been working on this for at least a year, one presumes, and the external play testers (some pretty smart and Matched Play experienced cookies in that lot, it should be said) have had this for quite a while as well.

But yeah, we who have just now seen just a part of the whole and have played exactly zero games with the full system ... we can decide that it's not worth using the full package? 

 

Come on.

[Mutton]

51 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:

Man GW need to get with the times. They need to do points organically and digitally for free. Publishing everything into a money making book is hurting them and their balance. I get that it helps with their growth that their shareholders desperately lust after, but they should be allowing for a more consistent and healthy system for points.

Because this book seems very odd and out of time/the loop with current balance.

I’m all for blanket point raises, I enjoy smaller games. But there’s some seemingly random changes here. Seriously Sentinals, wtf? These duders going up so little baffles me even with the current points.

I’m sure in a few months some of this will be rectified in another publication but man, just update this stuff for free. A better game for a little less cash, you’re making enough as it is lol.

I agree the points should just be put up digitally. But I also don't know who's buying the GHB for points?

I buy the GHB for the battle plans and access to a convenient rules reference. If you're buying the GHB for points values then you might as well throw your money into the nearest dumpster. There's way better content in the GHB than unit points.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mutton

[Clan's Cynic]

3 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I agree the points should just be put up digitally. But I also don't know who's buying the GHB for points?

I buy the GHB for the battle plans and access to a convenient rules reference. If you're buying the GHB for points values then you might as well throw your money into the nearest dumpster. 

I think it's more the idea that the money you pay for the GHB includes the cost of having the studio 'improve' the balance for six months to a year and that without the GHB/Chapter Approved, you'd never actually see updates outside of Battletomes, most of which only come around every three years.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[AngryPanda]

Ok guys, we seriously need to talk about the massive, pink elephant in the room that is Slaanesh. 

It is not ok what they did, and GW needs to know about this. 

The larger figures in the community (Goonhammer, Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, etc.) have directly stated their opinions, and its generally be unanimous that when the Slaanesh battletome's points were overpriced. In response, on the other side of TGA via the Hedonites of Slaanesh forums, the community had banned together to create a respectable and well thought out survey that took many months of collaboration to complete. People from different parts of the internet took part, and it received a decent number of responses, totaling above 300; the vast majority agreed that the points were absurdly high. We had sent it over in late April, where it was confirmed that the rules team at GW had seen the responses from the survey, and the responses from the more prevalent community figures such as the one's mentioned above. 

Below is a link to the survey results: 

Survey Results

The Hedonites of Slaanesh TGA Discussion:

Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion (around pg 153-170 we talked about submitting the survey responses to GW)

Within the hidden content is the copy/paste email that was sent: 

 

Spoiler

 

Dear GW,

I have been an active member of both the 40k and Warhammer Fantasy community for over 14 years. I love the hobby, as the universes of 40k and AoS are my favorite science fiction and fantasy settings respectfully. 

Since 2016, Age of Sigmar has been a significant passion of mine to which I've dedicated many hours. As a Khorne Bloodbound and Slaanesh player, I have undergone narrative campaigns, casual nights, and have also participated in a few local tournaments; many great memories have come from these events.

I have had my fair share of experiences, and am enjoying the direction that the game is heading. The new Hedonites release from February had me very excited, for the mortal sculpts are some of the best I've seen come from the design studio. Yet, having played against them a few times and observing several other games, I and some prominent figures in the community (Goonhammer, The Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, Age of Sigmar List Lab , etc.) have noticed that the point values for the mortal and many Daemon units are excessively high. 

To express my opinion, I have recently taken a survey which has been passed throughout the AoS community online and has received over 300 responses. Linked is the survey and the results: 

Survey 

Survey Results 

In the coming months, I and others in the community feel that a point decrease to the mortal units mentioned, potentially to some Daemons, and a change to the Slaangor warscroll would bring the army more into alignment/balance with other armies. 

I hope you consider the feedback that I have suggested for future updates or changes to the army, as well as the data within the recent survey, and I look forward to the coming years of content!

Best regards and thank you,

- Angry Panda

 

The original email had the working links, in addition to the survey results being able to be visibly shown.

For them to not only take the community feedback into consideration, but to actually increase the points higher then all the other army so far (more then 655 point increase across the entire army!) is beyond ridiculous, and tells me that either that they don't give a ****** about the community's opinion, that there is someone on the rules team that has it in for HoS, or a mix of both. 

This is the kind of ****** that needs to be address. If we simply stand by and not say anything, then it just shows that GW can have their way with us in any means that they see fit without any repercussions. We need to do something about this. 

[frostyeel]

4 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

Ok guys, we seriously need to talk about the massive, pink elephant in the room that is Slaanesh. 

It is not ok what they did, and GW needs to know about this. 

The larger figures in the community (Goonhammer, Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, etc.) have directly stated their opinions, and its generally be unanimous that when the Slaanesh battletome's points were overpriced. In response, on the other side of TGA via the Hedonites of Slaanesh forums, the community had banned together to create a respectable and well thought out survey that took many months of collaboration to complete. People from different parts of the internet took part, and it received a decent number of responses, totaling above 300; the vast majority agreed that the points were absurdly high. We had sent it over in late April, where it was confirmed that the rules team at GW had seen the responses from the survey, and the responses from the more prevalent community figures such as the one's mentioned above. 

Below is a link to the survey results: 

Survey Results

The Hedonites of Slaanesh TGA Discussion:

Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion (around pg 153-170 we talked about submitting the survey responses to GW)

Within the hidden content is the copy/paste email that was sent: 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dear GW,

I have been an active member of both the 40k and Warhammer Fantasy community for over 14 years. I love the hobby, as the universes of 40k and AoS are my favorite science fiction and fantasy settings respectfully. 

Since 2016, Age of Sigmar has been a significant passion of mine to which I've dedicated many hours. As a Khorne Bloodbound and Slaanesh player, I have undergone narrative campaigns, casual nights, and have also participated in a few local tournaments; many great memories have come from these events.

I have had my fair share of experiences, and am enjoying the direction that the game is heading. The new Hedonites release from February had me very excited, for the mortal sculpts are some of the best I've seen come from the design studio. Yet, having played against them a few times and observing several other games, I and some prominent figures in the community (Goonhammer, The Honest Wargamer, Miniwargaming, Age of Sigmar List Lab , etc.) have noticed that the point values for the mortal and many Daemon units are excessively high. 

To express my opinion, I have recently taken a survey which has been passed throughout the AoS community online and has received over 300 responses. Linked is the survey and the results: 

Survey 

Survey Results 

In the coming months, I and others in the community feel that a point decrease to the mortal units mentioned, potentially to some Daemons, and a change to the Slaangor warscroll would bring the army more into alignment/balance with other armies. 

I hope you consider the feedback that I have suggested for future updates or changes to the army, as well as the data within the recent survey, and I look forward to the coming years of content!

Best regards and thank you,

- Angry Panda

 

The original email had the working links, in addition to the survey results being able to be visibly shown.

For them to not only take the community feedback into consideration, but to actually increase the points higher then all the other army so far (more then 655 point increase across the entire army!) is beyond ridiculous, and tells me that either that they don't give a ****** about the community's opinion, that there is someone on the rules team that has it in for HoS, or a mix of both. 

This is the kind of ****** that needs to be address. If we simply stand by and not say anything, then it just shows that GW can have their way with us in any means that they see fit without any repercussions. We need to do something about this. 

 

I'm sure they had already finalized this GHB and sent it out to print by April. That's the problem of focusing on print books, everything needs to be decided far in advance that adjustments will always lag far behind reality.

[Mutton]

1 minute ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I think it's more that the money you pay for the GHB includes the cost of having the studio 'improve' the balance for six months to a year and that without the GHB/Chapter Approved, you'd never actually see updates outside of Battletomes.

How do you know that? They give us a Winter FAQ with points adjustments for free (excluding this year due to a number of things). You can't possibly know that we wouldn't get balance updates without a GHB. The fact of the matter is the GHB is an excellent profit revenue as a yearly content boost to those already invested; but POINTS have nothing to do with what you're paying for.

Look, if  you're not going to use the extra battleplans or matchmaking rules, rewritten warscrolls, or any of that, then sure, it makes sense you wouldn't buy it. But saying that the GHB is garbage because the points aren't to your liking is totally ridiculous. They're two completely separate things that just happen to be bundled together. The points end up online anyway with warscroll builder and online reference forums.

I say again, people need to get it out of their heads that the GHB is about points--never has been. Points updates just coincide with it because it's a good marketing strategy.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think, after cooling down a bit, I'm going to give 3rd a miss for a while at least. I was really excited for it, but seeing some of these points changes and the new shackles, my hype has pretty much gone for the edition

It just feels the rules writers don't have a clue what they're doing. Or if they do, they don't want to tell us why they do what they do. 

Some of the best units have got away relatively untouched, the worst unit has been nerfed. It all feels so distant and messy, and I don't trust them to have made the right decisions despite the community. I would really appreciate some sort of designer's explanation, but I'm not expecting one. We'll just have to sit and wait until they eventually get around to the current mess and hope they don't make a new one in the process. 

I hope others will enjoy AoS 3, but I don't have any faith in the rules writers at the moment. 

Same. Probably going to focus on 40k more over the next year until GW fixes points across the board. I think now people are starting to see what ive been saying about points increases being bad.

[Chikout]

@AngryPanda I think you are misdirecting your anger here. Books are worked on about a year ahead of time and something like points is done about 6 months ahead of time. The ghb was probably already printed before they received your info. 

It's not that they aren't listening necessarily, it's that the draconian product method makes it almost impossible to listen. 

We saw the same thing with 40k recently. Lacklustre book, great faq. 

[AngryPanda]

8 minutes ago, frostyeel said:

 

I'm sure they had already finalized this GHB and sent it out to print by April. That's the problem of focusing on print books, everything needs to be decided far in advance that adjustments will always lag far behind reality.

 

1 minute ago, Chikout said:

@AngryPanda I think you are misdirecting your anger here. Books are worked on about a year ahead of time and something like points is done about 6 months ahead of time. The ghb was probably already printed before they received your info. 

It's not that they aren't listening necessarily, it's that the draconian product method makes it almost impossible to listen. 

We saw the same thing with 40k recently. Lacklustre book, great faq.

Yea you guys are right, but seeing the point increases still really stings. A lot of us on the HoS side were really hoping for some reductions, and when we heard that there were going to be point increases across all armies in the game we were hopeful that we would either be untouched or slightly increased. The fact that GW increased it so exponentially considering how bad the points were, even if the books were printed a year in advance, shows some disconnect.

In that case, if they don't address the issue (like they did with the FAQ in march), then I say that there needs to be some sort of effort on our part as a community to address such obvious lack of disconnect. 

[Mutton]

Look, I do my share of whinging when points are revealed, but people need to calm the heck down and stop being such turbo nerds about this. Threatening to boycott the new points or edition changes? It's childish buffoonery. That's the kind of attitude I'd expect on some popular video game forum or something. The AoS community is better than that. Deal with the hand you're given and just enjoy the hobby. Almost no one has played the game more than once with the new edition, let alone the points updates--no one here has ANY idea what the game will be like at this point; and the hobby is about more than just little numbers of little plastic men going up or down.

Vent your frustration. Get away from social media. Chill out.

[CommissarRotke]

28 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Orrrrr ... Make a point to play with the whole system, including the new points, for several games before passing judgment, maybe?

And if they make a ton of money off the GHB21, if it still doesn't do well because of overcosting... what incentive do they have to change if they already got a ton of money from people??

[frostyeel]

With 40K 9th edition it seemed like some of the initial points changes were to what GW wanted the units to be worth, but those changes didn't really match reality until a new codex updated the unit's stats and abilities to match those desired point values. Which sucks for factions that are late to get an updated codex or battletome. Don't know if that's in play in any way here.

 

[Chikout]

6 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

And if they make a ton of money off the GHB21, if it still doesn't do well because of overcosting... what incentive do they have to change if they already got a ton of money from people??

You don't need to buy the ghb yet. Watch the facehammer video or the honest wargamer video, try out the points and battleplans they talk about. 

If it turns out to be good, then buy the ghb. 

The thing to think about is that any issues raised by the community in the last 6 months.  won't be in the core book or the ghb. 

The faq is the key. This is the chance for gw to listen to what players have been worrying about for the last few weeks regrading the new edition and for the last few months regarding shooting. If the faq also turns out to be poor, then I will be at the front of the queue in sharing my displeasure, but there is still time for it to be great and fix a bunch of problems. 

[AngryPanda]

8 minutes ago, Chikout said:

You don't need to buy the ghb yet. Watch the facehammer video or the honest wargamer video, try out the points and battleplans they talk about. 

If it turns out to be good, then buy the ghb. 

The thing to think about is that any issues raised by the community in the last 6 months.  won't be in the core book or the ghb. 

The faq is the key. This is the chance for gw to listen to what players have been worrying about for the last few weeks regrading the new edition and for the last few months regarding shooting. If the faq also turns out to be poor, then I will be at the front of the queue in sharing my displeasure, but there is still time for it to be great and fix a bunch of problems. 

I agree, however if you look at the FAQ back in March in response to the criticism regarding HoS, there were no changes that address the major problems of the release; particularly the Fiendbloods becoming a meme within the community regarding how bad they were.

It just feels awful when the majority figures in the hobby are laughing at or heavily criticizing the book, and there’s no reaction from GW; especially if said criticism is unanimous. Us Slaanesh players have been very patient, and month after month of disappointments has left us feeling burnt. I’ll wait till the FAQ, but if there’s no response from GW, I legitimately believe we as a community need to stand up against this blunt disregard for what the community has to say. 

[Chikout]

2 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I agree, however if you look at the FAQ back in March in response to the criticism regarding HoS, there were no changes that address the major problems of the release; particularly the Fiendbloods becoming a meme within the community regarding how bad they were.

It just feels awful when the majority figures in the hobby are laughing at or heavily criticizing the book, and there’s no reaction from GW; especially if said criticism is unanimous. Us Slaanesh players have been very patient, and month after month of disappointments has left us feeling burnt. I’ll wait till the FAQ, but if there’s no response from GW, I legitimately believe we as a community need to stand up against this blunt disregard for what the community has to say. 

I agree. There's been lots of complaining about various points changes most of which I don't think is justified (complaints that Teclis isn't useable now or that skinks aren't worth it any more, or that eels got needed) but Slaanesh stands out as a straight out bad change. There are two things the community can agree on right now. Sentinels are still too good (a problem points won't fix) and Slaanesh have been hit with nerf after nerf to the point where they are probably the worst faction in the game. 

[Gailon]

48 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Look, I do my share of whinging when points are revealed, but people need to calm the heck down and stop being such turbo nerds about this. Threatening to boycott the new points or edition changes? It's childish buffoonery. That's the kind of attitude I'd expect on some popular video game forum or something. The AoS community is better than that. Deal with the hand you're given and just enjoy the hobby. Almost no one has played the game more than once with the new edition, let alone the points updates--no one here has ANY idea what the game will be like at this point; and the hobby is about more than just little numbers of little plastic men going up or down.

Vent your frustration. Get away from social media. Chill out.

This, a million times this. What the heck is wrong with people? 

90% of this hobby is painting and crafting and lore and hanging out with cool people who share an interest. Are people getting some kind of amazing prizes for winning tournaments or something? Everyone seems to be responding to changes with "this rule sucks because it makes my particular list worse." or something. 

If you have an army that is generally weak, and a list that is generally weak, then get better friends. Because if you don't know someone is willing to bust out their sylvaneth, or beasts of chaos, or some jank build like StD without marauders or Fyreslayers with only magmadroths and vulkites, then. I don't know, find a nicer gaming group? 

This is all wild theory crafting to begin with, and we've seen the meta shift up and down. It is a bummer to have a book of rules that lacks synergy, lacks dynamic play, but it seems like everyone is just complaining about power level, when that's all just relevant anyway. 

Maybe I just don't get it. Personally I choose to enjoy a hobby that takes so much money and time. 

[KriticalKhan]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

Look, I do my share of whinging when points are revealed, but people need to calm the heck down and stop being such turbo nerds about this. Threatening to boycott the new points or edition changes? It's childish buffoonery. That's the kind of attitude I'd expect on some popular video game forum or something. The AoS community is better than that. Deal with the hand you're given and just enjoy the hobby. Almost no one has played the game more than once with the new edition, let alone the points updates--no one here has ANY idea what the game will be like at this point; and the hobby is about more than just little numbers of little plastic men going up or down.

Vent your frustration. Get away from social media. Chill out.

So if someone doesn't like something they're a childish buffoon for not buying it, as opposed to the mature and well-thought out response of mindlessly consuming whatever is put out in front of them? 

Yes, yes, that is very reasonable.

[Malakithe]

20 minutes ago, Gailon said:

If you have an army that is generally weak, and a list that is generally weak, then get better friends. Because if you don't know someone is willing to bust out their sylvaneth, or beasts of chaos, or some jank build like StD without marauders or Fyreslayers with only magmadroths and vulkites, then. I don't know, find a nicer gaming group? 

Oh sure. I bet lot of people are willing to relocate to other cities in the hopes of finding new friends and gaming groups. Thats not a realistic answer just like people that say 'lol play narrative'

[Gailon]

Just now, Malakithe said:

Oh sure. I bet lot of people are willing to relocate to other cities in the hopes of finding new friends and gaming groups. Thats not a realistic answer just like people that say 'lol play narrative'

According to the internet right now there are a ton of people whose army is rendered complete garbage. You can't find any of them to play against and have a fun game? the two people I play the most against have a BoC army and a Nighthaunt army among their collection, and I have a Sylvaneth. All bottom tier armies that can play just fine against each other and have made for some perfectly enjoyable games. 

You're saying no one in your gaming circle has a Nighthaunt, slaanesh, BoC, [insert virtually every army here according to this thread] army to play against? 

[PJetski]

Ive played zero games with the new edition, but I can definitively state that the sky is falling

 

 

[Icarion]

9 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Oh sure. I bet lot of people are willing to relocate to other cities in the hopes of finding new friends and gaming groups. Thats not a realistic answer just like people that say 'lol play narrative'

And I'd say expecting games workshops attempt to balance their game to be flawless for every army (when they have never managed it before) is equally unrealistic.

Having lived through many edition changes, this one looks very polished by comparison in terms of eyeballing balance, but all their armies have never been on an even footing at the launch of a new edition. Some people screeching like they have been purposely slighted by gamesworkshop for their choice of army is a tantrum. 

 I'd argue that trying to organize a boycotting effort over something that just 5 years ago warhammer fans would have killed for (yearly points updates) because you're unsatisfied with them is the height of entitlement. 

Could things be better? OF COURSE. Could they be worse. YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

On the whole, and playing several of the armies the "community" has declared have been nerfed into oblivion, This edition change seems to have a wider swath of armies within swinging distance of their peers, with some high and low outliers, but compared to earlier edition changes this looks to be in a better state.

 

People online need to have more realistic expectations.

[Fred1245]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

Same. Probably going to focus on 40k more over the next year until GW fixes points across the board. I think now people are starting to see what ive been saying about points increases being bad.

There are a lot of people who are defending the state of the edition currently that seem to have forgotten that AoS 2 was completely broken until the first major FAQ came out.

GW thought unlimited Command Abilities and Kroak were fine. The very first tournament of the edition immediately saw 64 damage per attack grots and Kroak average 100 mortal wounds PER TURN.

Because the problems in this release are mostly systemic rather than 'well duh, of course you can't just let people use shoot again in the hero phase 12 times in the first turn' it's going to take a lot longer to fix it.

[novakai]

Honestly in the end i think it just been lack of communication by GW which kind of turns into Dishonesty when they decided to hype stuff up but feel like they hide stuff. they don't really say hey points are going across the board to take in account of there being no battalions and smaller boards in the game, hey some abilities may not work in this edition but this FAQ we will address as many as possible, there not really an open forum that GW has that players can give their opinions and feedback to them (yes forum can be toxic and not everyone has the greatest perspective on balance, but if game company can use Reddit of all places to get constructive feedback from it, GW could at least give the impression of them listening)

being left in the darkis going to lead to skeptism of anything GW does and with good reason. people are not going to believe that the FAQ is going to solve anything because GW doesn't show the competence to do a good job, especially if you compare to the last few FAQs. They also get anxious too when there no roadmap of Battletomes and how long they have to wait to feel like their army is up to date. people feel the same thing in 40K already when your army is basically outdated and not playing the new edition until your codex comes out.

Edited June 18, 2021 by novakai

[Fred1245]

15 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

And I'd say expecting games workshops attempt to balance their game to be flawless for every army (when they have never managed it before) is equally unrealistic.

Having lived through many edition changes, this one looks very polished by comparison in terms of eyeballing balance, but all their armies have never been on an even footing at the launch of a new edition. Some people screeching like they have been purposely slighted by gamesworkshop for their choice of army is a tantrum. 

 I'd argue that trying to organize a boycotting effort over something that just 5 years ago warhammer fans would have killed for (yearly points updates) because you're unsatisfied with them is the height of entitlement. 

Could things be better? OF COURSE. Could they be worse. YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

On the whole, and playing several of the armies the "community" has declared have been nerfed into oblivion, This edition change seems to have a wider swath of armies within swinging distance of their peers, with some high and low outliers, but compared to earlier edition changes this looks to be in a better state.

 

People online need to have more realistic expectations.

So your argument is that we should be greatful because at least it wasn't worse. 

Galaxy brain take, that. 

[Icarion]

3 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

So your argument is that we should be greatful because at least it wasn't worse. 

Galaxy brain take, that. 

Thank you for your support!