AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Fyrenn]

3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I pinned mine.  it sucked.  But it's what you gotta do.  Grind it out, maybe put on some tunes or a bat rep or two,.. or 8   But yeah pinning 09 ish arms wasn't fun.

Used to be 2 weeks, now I think it's 1 month?  Regarding Slaangors it is unlikely the warscroll will change.  This is how it is for now.   To me the bigger issue is the Depraved Drove wasn't updated, nor did the Warscroll have the Brayherds keyword.  Granted the Tzaangor warscroll didn't have Brayherd until BoC was released.  

Ahh... I expected this might be the case.  I didn't know if there was any precedent for actual warscroll changes in a FAQ before, and the lack of ever actually discussing the unit after the initial image reveals (when so many others did get reviews) made me wonder if they knew something was wrong and put it in the 'it's too late to deal with this now, so let's handle it later' pile.  All conjecture, I guess. 

I think if they intend the depraved dove to be updated, it would probably be done around the same time - but :shrug:.  I assumed with the warscroll, something like brayherd or warherd would be easily added to give it some degree of functionality if they're not able to make major changes.

I have heard often that the review process on the books isn't always robust, so it was more a ... hmm, is this really what was intended, or did something legitimately get left out?  I don't think they'd change it in a month unless it was a just correcting some sort of error or misprint, etc etc. 

 

 

 

 

[AngryPanda]

51 minutes ago, Fyrenn said:

I have heard often that the review process on the books isn't always robust, so it was more a ... hmm, is this really what was intended, or did something legitimately get left out?  I don't think they'd change it in a month unless it was a just correcting some sort of error or misprint, etc etc. 

I think it’s a mix of different factors that caused our book to be of a poorer quality then other releases. Compared to DoK, it was a simple points update with added endless spells and minor rule changes. HoS needed to be redesigned in order to fix the “hero hammer” play style that pigeon holed a lot of lists, while also ensuring that summoning wasn’t op like it was when our first book dropped. This, in addition to the new mortals in the book, made it a far more daunting challenge. 
 

I have a feeling that the design team was worried about releasing something that was too powerful, for in the past they’ve made similar mistakes with other books and didn’t want it to happen again with HoS. However, I also believe that due to the covid being around for a year now, that to some capacity it had impacted play testing and balancing; the book could have been rushed or developed in an environment that wasn’t optimal. GW also has released a statement stating that due to the lack of tournament data, they were not confident in making any changes to point values during the winter faq, which made a lot of Sylvaneth and BoC players pretty upset. 
 

Is this a legitimate excuse? To some degree it probably is not, but also is.  I’m honestly unsure, but my instincts are telling me there’s a number of factors that led to where we are now that were both out of GW’s hands, but also in their control. 

On a personal note, when I play AoS I like to have an army that can pose a challenge to my opponent, but isn’t so strong that it will curb stomp the local meta without effort. Back in 2015-2016 when AoS was in its infant stages, I played BoK against a Seraphon player in my local meta who did everything in his power to win, spamming flying units to place on cliffs to block my ability to attack them, MW spammed, and fielded blocks of Saurus warriors with Skink Priests that gave rerolls to saves. He loved to win and made some pretty powerful lists back then, but it wasn’t fun to play against because of how strong it was.
 

Same can be said of OBR’s when they first dropped: Petrifix Elite dominated the tournaments and completely overshadowed the other subfactions. Now, at least according to the most recent data, KO and Seraphon are winning and placing high in a significant number of tournaments. This was also the case when DoT and HoS first dropped as well, as they were powerful for their own reasons. Hopefully when the new GHB releases, GW address some of the issues with shooting, as well as some specific concerns with individual armies.
 

The good news is that GW does sometimes adjust the rules/point costs when necessary, and if they begin making changes despite the lack of tournament data, we will probably get some decreases in point costs; this is especially true if players continue to email them suggestions on how to improve our release.
 

But, when will this happen? 
 

I’m hoping it’s in the near future (before the GHB), and that we get enough discounts to make list building a lot more flexible and rewarding, but not to an extent where we are able to spam Painbringers or archers to ruin someone’s day. 

[Overread]

MY SEEKERS ARE HERE MY SEEKERS ARE HERE MY SEEKERS ARE HERE

and breath

Yes my order finally came through and that means I've got my new exalted seekers and battletome and dice. I have to say these exatled seekers are fantastic! loads of detail, lots of strange mutated designs, FAR FAR FAR easier to clean up than the regular seekers (at least the ones with hair) and just awesome. I'm honestly of the opinion that this is the size original seekers were "supposed" to be at least when you look at the artwork of them in books. They look sleeker; deadlier; are festooned with excessive ornaments and just look awesome! I've not even put a rider on any yet but gosh I do like them.

[Fyrenn]

2 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

 

I have a feeling that the design team was worried about releasing something that was too powerful, for in the past they’ve made similar mistakes with other books and didn’t want it to happen again with HoS. However, I also believe that due to the covid being around for a year now, that to some capacity it had impacted play testing and balancing; the book could have been rushed or developed in an environment that wasn’t optimal. GW also has released a statement stating that due to the lack of tournament data, they were not confident in making any changes to point values during the winter faq, which made a lot of Sylvaneth and BoC players pretty upset. 
 

 

I appreciate that really well thought out assessment.  

Just as a bit of .. err, a confession; I'm actually here for Beasts of Chaos as opposed to the rest of the Hedonites. The Slaangors were my next great hope of something new.  So, I spent two months daydreaming about what new options this might mean for Beasts and how they might fit in. Would they replace Bullgors? I like them, but honestly i'm not a huge fan of those models. Would they be something entirely new? Would it be brayherd or warherd?  (Honestly, it never even occured to me it might be neither!)  So on and so forth... 

So yeah, no update on the winter faq, but then there was this hope of this new monster that would tear through the battlefield and give some non-tzaangor options for something new and cool.  Every day waiting to see what notes they might release, then a cool article on the history of beastmen... then some rules previews of.. seemingly most other guys, but they were absent.

Then the release hits, and it seemed as if the first BoC model in ages is immediately derided as.. i dunno. The worst part of a somewhat controversial book release? I was just hoping for something to use with beasts and it's sometimes hard not to feel hard done by it - at least a little bit.

So I did the OBVIOUS thing... decided to pin hopes on the FAQ/Errata. 

No worries tho, if there isn't anything there, there's always GHB2021... eventually 😐

 

[swarmofseals]

On 3/2/2021 at 11:37 AM, Popisdead said:

What are your thoughts on Raider spam?  Like 90... 

 

Not a big fan. They just don't do enough damage to be a main battle unit. They can generate a lot of depravity, but I think one unit is probably good enough for that.  I suppose I could see a case for 80 raiders and 30 Bestigors over 40 raiders and 60 Bestigors but I suspect the latter will be better most of the time.

 

[LeonBox]

Is it 100% confirmed that the Everchosen subfactions are still allowed? They've completely disappeared off the Azyr app and my old lists that contain them are now invalid. 

[CeleFAZE]

3 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Is it 100% confirmed that the Everchosen subfactions are still allowed? They've completely disappeared off the Azyr app and my old lists that contain them are now invalid. 

We won't really have 100% confirmation until we receive the next FAQ of legal supplements. However I imagine WotEC will continue to be legal until at least the Belakor book, for the sake of his subfaction, as well as the Knights of the Empty Throne faction.

[Enoby]

10 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

I think it’s a mix of different factors that caused our book to be of a poorer quality then other releases. Compared to DoK, it was a simple points update with added endless spells and minor rule changes. HoS needed to be redesigned in order to fix the “hero hammer” play style that pigeon holed a lot of lists, while also ensuring that summoning wasn’t op like it was when our first book dropped. This, in addition to the new mortals in the book, made it a far more daunting challenge. 
 

I have a feeling that the design team was worried about releasing something that was too powerful, for in the past they’ve made similar mistakes with other books and didn’t want it to happen again with HoS. However, I also believe that due to the covid being around for a year now, that to some capacity it had impacted play testing and balancing; the book could have been rushed or developed in an environment that wasn’t optimal. GW also has released a statement stating that due to the lack of tournament data, they were not confident in making any changes to point values during the winter faq, which made a lot of Sylvaneth and BoC players pretty upset. 
 

Is this a legitimate excuse? To some degree it probably is not, but also is.  I’m honestly unsure, but my instincts are telling me there’s a number of factors that led to where we are now that were both out of GW’s hands, but also in their control. 

On a personal note, when I play AoS I like to have an army that can pose a challenge to my opponent, but isn’t so strong that it will curb stomp the local meta without effort. Back in 2015-2016 when AoS was in its infant stages, I played BoK against a Seraphon player in my local meta who did everything in his power to win, spamming flying units to place on cliffs to block my ability to attack them, MW spammed, and fielded blocks of Saurus warriors with Skink Priests that gave rerolls to saves. He loved to win and made some pretty powerful lists back then, but it wasn’t fun to play against because of how strong it was.
 

Same can be said of OBR’s when they first dropped: Petrifix Elite dominated the tournaments and completely overshadowed the other subfactions. Now, at least according to the most recent data, KO and Seraphon are winning and placing high in a significant number of tournaments. This was also the case when DoT and HoS first dropped as well, as they were powerful for their own reasons. Hopefully when the new GHB releases, GW address some of the issues with shooting, as well as some specific concerns with individual armies.
 

The good news is that GW does sometimes adjust the rules/point costs when necessary, and if they begin making changes despite the lack of tournament data, we will probably get some decreases in point costs; this is especially true if players continue to email them suggestions on how to improve our release.
 

But, when will this happen? 
 

I’m hoping it’s in the near future (before the GHB), and that we get enough discounts to make list building a lot more flexible and rewarding, but not to an extent where we are able to spam Painbringers or archers to ruin someone’s day. 

I think you raise some good points. There's also a tendency for redo books to be almost too similar to the previous books; correct me if I'm wrong, but both Sylvaneth and Khorne's books were practically the same with stuff taken away from them. Thankfully we got our hero hammer fixed, but there weren't many other additions to the book, and Pretenders was nerfed for unknown reasons. 

Like you said, it may have been covid that meant we didn't get more to this book, but I think another likely culprit is that this is more of a 0.5 book - an addition to our old book to add the new mortals and fix hero hammer, but it didn't set out to do anything else. Our old book pretty much had the same content as this book, with the notable exception being Depravity Points, Locus of Diversion, and the mortals. It's not that we lost synergy or choices but rather we didn't have them in the first place. Instead of writing a new battletome, the writer of this book fixed our old one but the chassis of that book was pretty sparse. 

I'd imagine, whenever we get a new book (however long that may be), we'll see more significant changes (especially if people write in what they want). While I do generally like the rate at which battletomes are produced, I think the speed can cause some corners to be cut - if a writer has three battletomes to write rules for, it's probably pretty tempting to reuse as much of the old stuff as possible. 

Even away from our battletome, there's a good chance that weak tomes like BoC won't see massive improvements if they get redone; hopefully they do, but from prior experience they'll probably get their old book with a few tweaks. 

Unfortunately I think we will be waiting for the GHB as GW sticks to a schedule. However, like Kharadron shows, they're not afraid of big points drops without much data. With people writing in and some big personalities in the community talking about units being overcosted, GW are likely to take notice. Given that this current book was written when dislike towards Slaanesh was so high, it's not unreasonable to think that the points costs may have been overestimated to play on the safe side.

6 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Is it 100% confirmed that the Everchosen subfactions are still allowed? They've completely disappeared off the Azyr app and my old lists that contain them are now invalid

Like CeleFAZE said, there's no confirmation so we'll need to wait for an FAQ (currently as writteb they do work). But there's a lot wrong with the Azyr app, such as Godseekers not having artifacts, so I wouldn't take anything you see there as confirmation. Warscroll Builder does, I think, include the WotE hosts.

[Third]

6 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Is it 100% confirmed that the Everchosen subfactions are still allowed? They've completely disappeared off the Azyr app and my old lists that contain them are now invalid. 

100% legal until they omit it from the FAQ.

By the logic of checking Azyr, for if things are legal, artifacts in Godseekers Hosts are no longer legal 😂 😂 😂

Azyr is a hot mess and should be taken as such.. Sadly.. 

[Koala]

I would like to add that, with the unfortunate exception of the Slaangors, the actual stats are solid. No riddiculous rules/interactions and no "this will never be healthy for the game, why does this even exist?" rules like the old loci.

GW has shown they will freely adjust Point Costs, but they do not want to change warscrolls unless it is absolutely needed.

So it should be fine in the long run (again, except for Slaangors, who have absolutely no Designes place in the battletome. Shame indeed).

[Enoby]

18 minutes ago, Third said:

100% legal until they omit it from the FAQ.

By the logic of checking Azyr, for if things are legal, artifacts in Godseekers Hosts are no longer legal 😂 😂 😂

Azyr is a hot mess and should be taken as such.. Sadly.. 

The treatment of AoS in the rules department (e.g. the FAQ and Azyr) is disheartening. AoS gets much nicer models than 40k, but it seems like Azyr has been neglected for a while compared to the days where the app was updated on preorder week. 

I know they're busier now, but I think many fans would appreciate them hiring another rules writer and app developer.

18 minutes ago, Koala said:

I would like to add that, with the unfortunate exception of the Slaangors, the actual stats are solid. No riddiculous rules/interactions and no "this will never be healthy for the game, why does this even exist?" rules like the old loci.

GW has shown they will freely adjust Point Costs, but they do not want to change warscrolls unless it is absolutely needed.

So it should be fine in the long run (again, except for Slaangors, who have absolutely no Designes place in the battletome. Shame indeed).

I'm of this view too - as mentioned above I'm glad we didn't fall into the common trap of "find best unit, buff best unit, only play best unit" and I think nearly everything can find a place in lists besides Slaangors when points are reduced. 

I do understand complaints about synergy and lack of changes from the old battletome, but it's helpful to send those qualms to the rules team and then work with what we have - and what we have isn't bad at all Yeah, it could be better, but perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good

[LeonBox]

2 hours ago, Koala said:

I would like to add that, with the unfortunate exception of the Slaangors, the actual stats are solid. No riddiculous rules/interactions and no "this will never be healthy for the game, why does this even exist?" rules like the old loci.

GW has shown they will freely adjust Point Costs, but they do not want to change warscrolls unless it is absolutely needed.

So it should be fine in the long run (again, except for Slaangors, who have absolutely no Designes place in the battletome. Shame indeed).

Let's assume that a Slaangor warscroll re-write is off the cards for now. What kind of point reduction would it take for them to be feasible? Or are they fundamentally broken? 

[Nasrod]

44 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Let's assume that a Slaangor warscroll re-write is off the cards for now. What kind of point reduction would it take for them to be feasible? Or are they fundamentally broken? 

120 points and allow all models in the unit to attack with both weapon profiles.

Or

90 points for 3. Yes, 90. 5+ armor save and 3 wounds each for what is practically worse than a 5 man Chaos Warrior attack profile; the base warscroll is that bad. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Nasrod
Clarification

[azdimy]

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

Let's assume that a Slaangor warscroll re-write is off the cards for now. What kind of point reduction would it take for them to be feasible? Or are they fundamentally broken? 

They just do not perform any role. With 3  models on 40mm they are not good for chaffing  and they don t hit hard enough to justify how fragile they are

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Let's assume that a Slaangor warscroll re-write is off the cards for now. What kind of point reduction would it take for them to be feasible? Or are they fundamentally broken? 

I think they'd be usable at 80-90 points as a cheap shock troop, akin to Chaos Spawn in that you put them in there to get in the way and provide extra bodies to tie things up. They are pretty quick so they have that over chaos warriors

[umpac]

1 hour ago, Nasrod said:

90 points for 3. Yes, 90. 5+ armor save and 3 wounds each for what is practically worse than a 5 man Chaos Warrior attack profile; the base warscroll is that bad. 

Honestly, even at 90pts they're expensive. They have decent wound coefficient at that point (10pts per wound) but still bad save, and their damage is still bad compared to most damage dealers in other armies. They have the mortal key word so I guess at some point maybe they might be decent with a Lord of Pain to counter their terrible hit rolls but they really need double pile ins to do some real damage. The issue then becomes that if you invest enough for them to become a threat they are probably going to get focused and die since they are still glass.

Obsessive Violence is also one of the weirdest abilities I've seen on a warscroll. If you gave it to Painbringers then it makes sense but a glass cannon unit isn't gonna care about some chip damage at the end of the combat phase because they either killed enough already or they died to the retaliating unit. 

[zombiepiratexxx]

Why is it so hard to actually write a list with this book? I just run out of points so damn fast and it never feels like I'm putting enough of the stuff I want in there. I wish we had a hero that made Seekers Battleline.... even with Chariots I just don't feel like I'm getting enough in the army to justify the Battalion without going outside of the Hedonites book and I don't want to do that, I want to just play Hedonites. 

[TimeToWaste85]

So for the giggles...
Pretenders list

Keeper of Secrets w/Sinistrous Hand (Progeny of Damnation)
Monarch of Lies, Craving Stare, Breath-taker

Archaon (Born of Damnation)

Ally Kairos

5 chaos Warriors
5 chaos Warriors
5 chaos Warriors

Mesmerizing mirror
Chronomatic Cogs
Emerald Lifeswarm

Double attacks for Archaon, make sure the LoD goes off when needed, and Kairos lets you fish for that needed box-cars on Archaon’s “to wound” attack. Lots of spells/abilities to heal wounds. 

Might swap to Faultless Bl@des. 18 bodies on the field, 3 endless spells. I have a feeling it’ll absolutely wipe hero-heavy lists and fail hard to objective capturing lists. But it should be fun! 2k on the dot.

[azdimy]

42 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Why is it so hard to actually write a list with this book? I just run out of points so damn fast and it never feels like I'm putting enough of the stuff I want in there. I wish we had a hero that made Seekers Battleline.... even with Chariots I just don't feel like I'm getting enough in the army to justify the Battalion without going outside of the Hedonites book and I don't want to do that, I want to just play Hedonites. 

It sure feels that way. I know the 6 wounds for our seeker chariot is thematic but it does make them so fragile as well!

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Why is it so hard to actually write a list with this book? I just run out of points so damn fast and it never feels like I'm putting enough of the stuff I want in there. I wish we had a hero that made Seekers Battleline.... even with Chariots I just don't feel like I'm getting enough in the army to justify the Battalion without going outside of the Hedonites book and I don't want to do that, I want to just play Hedonites. 

It's tough with points (hopefully Painbringers come down by a large amount), but I think with battleline being so expensive the best bet is to make the most of your battleline. Imo, twin souls have the most potential at the moment so three units of them, while pricey, would be able to do some work.

[Enoby]

37 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

So for the giggles...
Pretenders list

Keeper of Secrets w/Sinistrous Hand (Progeny of Damnation)
Monarch of Lies, Craving Stare, Breath-taker

Archaon (Born of Damnation)

Ally Kairos

5 chaos Warriors
5 chaos Warriors
5 chaos Warriors

Mesmerizing mirror
Chronomatic Cogs
Emerald Lifeswarm

Double attacks for Archaon, make sure the LoD goes off when needed, and Kairos lets you fish for that needed box-cars on Archaon’s “to wound” attack. Lots of spells/abilities to heal wounds. 

Might swap to Faultless Bl@des. 18 bodies on the field, 3 endless spells. I have a feeling it’ll absolutely wipe hero-heavy lists and fail hard to objective capturing lists. But it should be fun! 2k on the dot.

I'm wondering if it'd be worth trying to remove some endless spells and add a chaos sorcerer lord to keep up Archaons survivability? 

Also, if you were going to consider buying this list I'd suggest being wary of Kairos as there's a chance he'll be bumped up in points if all of Tzeentch is hit and he'll no longer be a viable ally  If that's a worry, Glutos would make a suitable replacement 

Objective capping shouldn't be as much of an issue with summoning, though you may find problems with lists that are good at zoning or focus firing - both Kairos and a KoS don't have much defence to being shot off the board or magic'd to death (though Kairos will help with unbinding), so it may be another argument to swap Kairos for Glutos - he's worse at magic but better at living.  

[umpac]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Why is it so hard to actually write a list with this book? I just run out of points so damn fast and it never feels like I'm putting enough of the stuff I want in there. I wish we had a hero that made Seekers Battleline.... even with Chariots I just don't feel like I'm getting enough in the army to justify the Battalion without going outside of the Hedonites book and I don't want to do that, I want to just play Hedonites. 

Combination of factors.

- As you mention everything is  overcosted, so you feel like your list is smaller than it should be.

- The book lacks obvious synergy pieces and sign posting. In Ironjawz for example you always take 2-3 chanters if you take a lot of ardboyz/gruntas, in DoK you take Cauldrons and priests if you take witches, in Seraphon you take Scar-vets, Starpriests and Old-bloods to support your saurus. Hedonites don't really have that so you are forced to make more decisions, which creates more uncertainty when list building.

- Battalions are either bad or doesn't help much with list building (except Cavalcade). Plenty of other factions take a battalion and build around it, making up a large portion of your points. 

I think Seekers Cavalcade with 3 chariots for battleline in Godseekers can be very potent. Chariots are squishy and a bit of a battleline tax here but they're not in a bad place if they get point reductions. If everything wasn't so expensive I would even be tempted to take double battalion and go Cavalcade + Sybarites for crazy CP & DP generation and getting down to a 2-drop, but right now it leaves us with a weak starting board. What units are you looking to build your list around?

Edited March 4, 2021 by umpac

[TimeToWaste85]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I'm wondering if it'd be worth trying to remove some endless spells and add a chaos sorcerer lord to keep up Archaons survivability? 

Also, if you were going to consider buying this list I'd suggest being wary of Kairos as there's a chance he'll be bumped up in points if all of Tzeentch is hit and he'll no longer be a viable ally  If that's a worry, Glutos would make a suitable replacement 

Objective capping shouldn't be as much of an issue with summoning, though you may find problems with lists that are good at zoning or focus firing - both Kairos and a KoS don't have much defence to being shot off the board or magic'd to death (though Kairos will help with unbinding), so it may be another argument to swap Kairos for Glutos - he's worse at magic but better at living.  

I actually own all these models already. And they’re all painted and ready to rock. 

[Enoby]

Just now, TimeToWaste85 said:

I actually own all these models already. And they’re all painted and ready to rock. 

Ah that makes it a lot easier then with all of them owned, I think the list could work pretty well, with the big weakness being shooting on the Keeper and Kairos. While I can't see you losing Archaon early on (esp with a sorcerer), the Keeper and Kairos are vulnerable. Do you have any plans to keep them alive from shooting or teleport charges?

[Fyrenn]

2 hours ago, umpac said:

Honestly, even at 90pts they're expensive. They have decent wound coefficient at that point (10pts per wound) but still bad save, and their damage is still bad compared to most damage dealers in other armies. They have the mortal key word so I guess at some point maybe they might be decent with a Lord of Pain to counter their terrible hit rolls but they really need double pile ins to do some real damage. The issue then becomes that if you invest enough for them to become a threat they are probably going to get focused and die since they are still glass.

Obsessive Violence is also one of the weirdest abilities I've seen on a warscroll. If you gave it to Painbringers then it makes sense but a glass cannon unit isn't gonna care about some chip damage at the end of the combat phase because they either killed enough already or they died to the retaliating unit. 

Yeah, from Beasts I look to enlightened Tzaans on foot and they're at 100 with more attacks, damage, buffs from shamans, and so on.  It's hard to see a point they ever work at without some sort of warscroll change (at leasts for beasts, but it seems similar in hedonites)

The thing is, I tend to think that change could be fairly minor (such as - double this units claw attacks if they have a pair of claws, or a change to the rend number, etc.  :shrug: