So, who does want Tomb Kings and Bretonnians back?

[Kaleb Daark]

11 hours ago, Turin Turambar said:

but those are two very different aethetics. 

knights are elite regular humans in armour (like scions/storm troopers), storm caste are over muscular humans in muscled armor with oversized puldrons (like space marines)

they would have different aesthetics and playstyle

yes.

But  that's the official line from GW when their managers ask about brets and tomb kings.

In a word, at this point in time... No.

[ManlyMuppet88]

I don’t want any of them back and I think that should have been an option. The way it is, your results are that 100% of voters want to bring something back, you’ve dictated the result. I know this is just a friendly, casual thing for curiosities sake but it still kinda frustrates me. 

I do still find the results interesting and think that the thread has value though so don’t get me wrong.

109 people in favour of Tomb Kings returning (at the time of posting) is not a lot on a forum with 13,000 members though, even taking into account that not everybody will have seen the thread or voted and that those 13,000 are just a fraction of GWs total consumer base. I think GW made the right decision from a business perspective.

[Kyriakin]

I can understand some people not wanting them to get a full release, as GW have a finite number or resources and making a new TK/Bret army would mean another army wasn't produced instead (i.e. it's a zero-sum-game for GW's attention). However, this could also apply to new army ideas that don't appeal to someone.

What I can't fathom are those who passionately don't want just the webstore-only return of a few of the plastic kits (i.e. Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights, etc.), a few bits of resin (i.e. Ushabti) and a few pages in the GHB. Are these kits worse than Fell Bats, Centigors, Saurus Knights, Vargulfs, Icefall Yhetees, Salamanders, Frost Sabres, Zombies, Gutter Runners (etc.)?

I don't see what harm that does, and, if they are that offensive to someone,  that person always has the option to not play them or play against this faction.

I swear that some posters have a borderline fetish for other people's armies being obsoleted, and even push for further squattings (e.g. Dispossessed, Wanderers, etc.) on some threads and Facebook posts I've seen. I'm not sure if it's an anti-WHFB/grognard thing, or just some weird schadenfreude.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Thiagoma]

24 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

swear that some posters have a borderline fetish for other people's armies being obsoleted, and even push for further squattings (e.g. Dispossessed, Wanderers, etc.) on some threads and Facebook posts I've seen. I'm not sure if it's an anti-WHFB/grognard thing, or just some weird schadenfreude.

Yep, that is pretty common.

[Lurynsar]

18 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

I can understand some people not wanting them to get a full release, as GW have a finite number or resources and making a new TK/Bret army would mean another army wasn't produced instead (i.e. it's a zero-sum-game for GW's attention). However, this could also apply to new army ideas that don't appeal to someone.

What I can't fathom are those who passionately don't want just the webstore-only return of a few of the plastic kits (i.e. Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights, etc.), a few bits of resin (i.e. Ushabti) and a few pages in the GHB. Are these kits worse than Fell Bats, Centigors, Saurus Knights, Vargulfs, Icefall Yhetees, Salamanders, Frost Sabres, Zombies, Gutter Runners (etc.)?

I don't see what harm that does, and, if they are that offensive to someone,  that person always has the option to not play them or play against this faction.

I swear that some posters have a borderline fetish for other people's armies being obsoleted, and even push for further squattings (e.g. Dispossessed, Wanderers, etc.) on some threads and Facebook posts I've seen. I'm not sure if it's an anti-WHFB/grognard thing, or just some weird schadenfreude.

I think for me (as someone who wants to see the themes return maybe not the models) that I’d rather they and others be squatted than live in indefinite purgatory. 

While the models can and should be made available for those that wish them because why not (if it doesn’t cost GW anything really) they should not be apart of Age of Sigmar. 

Age of Sigmar is not WHFB and despite people clinging to the ideals of the old world they need to cut off those ties. While some models are interesting enough and “AoSy” enough (Sylvaneth, Daughters of Khaine, Ironjawz, Skavenish) many others aren’t. And truthfully killing those sets of rules are just better then everyone going “we got allegiance abilities so we will be getting a book anytime soon”. 

Its like 40K players and their index options. They’re not in the codex. They don’t receive balances and point changes. But players still cling to something that is in all honesty dead and gone. 

So I guess for me GW should ****** or get off the pot so to speak. Either bring them back with a patch and say they have intentions in the future, or drop them all together. This also doesn’t just go to TK and Bret’s. Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Greenskins all need to be taken out back and shot. Maybe some models and their themes can be salvaged and give us a new faction. But those older models just don’t fit. I want a free cities expansion, but I don’t want Empire 2.0. I want what KO were to Dwavres (just with good rules haha) 

Ogres, Wanderers (Maybe), and Slaves to Darkness (Maybe) all are ripe for the AoS realms. Ironically so are TK but I believe they need a model overhaul and some tweaks. 

But I’d much rather see unique Shadow and Light Aelves, a unique Free Peoples (human and Dwarves and maybe Elves), and more that GW is capable of then legacy models jammed into armies for the sole fact of people liking them. 

I loved WHFB and HATED AoS when it came out. Now a few years later I truly believe AoS is a wonderful game and I’m interested in the realms and characters and armies. But I want an AoS experience. Not WHFB.

tldr: Id be okay with a redone TK as they fit the AoS theme to me 😛

[Melcavuk]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

What I can't fathom are those who passionately don't want just the webstore-only return of a few of the plastic kits (i.e. Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights, etc.), a few bits of resin (i.e. Ushabti) and a few pages in the GHB. Are these kits worse than Fell Bats, Centigors, Saurus Knights, Vargulfs, Icefall Yhetees, Salamanders, Frost Sabres, Zombies, Gutter Runners (etc.)?

I don't see what harm that does, and, if they are that offensive to someone,  that person always has the option to not play them or play against this faction.

I swear that some posters have a borderline fetish for other people's armies being obsoleted, and even push for further squattings (e.g. Dispossessed, Wanderers, etc.) on some threads and Facebook posts I've seen. I'm not sure if it's an anti-WHFB/grognard thing, or just some weird schadenfreude.

Nobody (well that I've met) is against them returning because they're bad people, it is simply the fact that with progress some things eventually get left behind. GW do not have infinite production capability, for every kit they add in from dead factions you're limiting the ability to produce something new, for every dead faction cluttering up the generals handbook thats another potential segment not being added in. Putting them in Warhammer Legends allows those players who have the models to keep playing them without constantly weighing the game down with an ever increasing array of discontinued models that must be produced for the few players that would buy them. If we go the route of everything always being in production then eventually nothing new can be produced, which means the game begins to stall out and we begin the unloved cycle of Fantasy 2.0 where people complain nothing new ever comes out whilst simultaneously demanding that nothing ever go out of production.

[Thiagoma]

Putting then on Legends is as good as trowing then away considering they have no point values.

Also, it is been what? 3 to 4 years of AoS and GW still sells High Elves, Dispossessed,  Wanderers, Gutbusters and so on. So they better do something with it or lose consumers trust.

The whole atitude of "this fits AoS but this doesnt and got to go" is really terrible overall.

If you go to the Order foruns for example you will most of the time see the Dispossessed thread on top. They got no centerpiece, no new models but like a lot of people they chose those models and that army. Like everyone else, they are hobists and consumers that deserve atention.

 

[Lurynsar]

10 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

Putting then on Legends is as good as trowing then away considering they have no point values.

Also, it is been what? 3 to 4 years of AoS and GW still sells High Elves, Dispossessed,  Wanderers, Gutbusters and so on. So they better do something with it or lose consumers trust.

The whole atitude of "this fits AoS but this doesnt and got to go" is really terrible overall.

If you go to the Order foruns for example you will most of the time see the Dispossessed thread on top. They got no centerpiece, no new models but like a lot of people they chose those models and that army. Like everyone else, they are hobists and consumers that deserve atention.

 

And they are completely welcome to like those models. I am quite fond of my of Dwarves and some of my Empire (Great Swords especially). 

But in my opinion someone liking a nostalgic model doesn’t mean it’s fit for the game. I love giant mechs. Doesn’t mean they’d belong in AoS. 

Its not terrible to want a game to succeed. For a game to do well it needs vision. I’ve seen time and time again people complain about movies or video games where sequels or DLC changes the tone of the series or theme. This is a common criticism. If GW is serious about making AoS a mainstay it needs a theme and world to build on and since 2.0 it’s been doing that effectively. Throwing away the old that can’t be salvaged and combining the new and pushing it out  

My ****** or get off the pot is exactly though because they’ve strung them along so long. I do not believe GW intends to move forward with most of the armies that haven’t seen an update. I expect Gutbusters and Beastclaw Raiders to be reunited into some sort of Tribes of Maw book, but the rest do not fit the vision. We aren’t going to have Sylvaneth, Wanderers, High Elves, Dark Elves, Daughters of Khaine, Shadow Aelves, Light Aelves and Idonith Deepkin in the game. That is too many Aelven factions. They’re going to trim the fat. Sure a couple of the High Elves May be salvaged as some Dark Elves were for Daughters of Khaine, but in no world do we get 8 factions of different flavours of Aelf. They need brandable vision and a view that fits the world they are making. The Dispossessed are the same way. They’re remnants of a model line and vision that GW doesn’t seem interested in pushing. Duardin will go forward on the backs of an old theme (Slayers) with Fyreslayers and a new vision in Kharadron Overlords. 

They did it with Greenskins and they need to keep doing it. Take the unique stuff out and fleshed into something new. The old won’t be and shouldn’t be supported. Their themes though should and I believe GW is moving strongly in that way. Plus leave the models so players can convert. They can have their old with the new with any models they choose and I agree GW can stop killing off models too.

Unless of course people believe GW is going to update another 9-10 books and push out more than 2 or 3 new factions before the game falls apart. 3 new factions (Beastclaw/Gutbusters, Light and Shadow Aelves) is already a lot and when you add the 9 or so books that need a proper balance and 2.0 update (and that doesn’t even include Slaves to Darkness and Wanderers that don’t even have books but are likely to get them too) you’ve got a year and a half to two years of releases, and by that time well it’ll have been 6 years since they’ve touched those old factions. They will be dead and GW just needs to put them out of their misery for their sake and the players  

  

[Galvainn]

@Lurynsar I mostly agree with your post, I also expect some things to go in the near future. Removing Greenskins is an understandable move in itself, however I feel the "replacement Orcs" (Bonesplitters and Ironjawz) are somewhat lacking in model and unit variety. Granted they are relatively early AoS releases, and current factions are a bit more fleshed out, but if someone wants to run a full Orc army, there is little choice with the Greenskins gone.

I started out WFB as a Bretonnian player, but I cannot see them work in the AoS setting. GW did not, however, have to remove them completely as far as I'm concerned. Some kits would work great in an updated, generic human faction (the Men-at-Arms kit especially is still wonderful). To me, the one thing still lacking from AoS is a decent human faction. There are hints at the humans of the Mortal Realms everywhere in the lore, but I (and I think many others with me) would love to see a set of human kits and a human army for AoS.

[prochuvi]

I really dont like the death or humans(im an elf\dwarf dude) so i wont collect them. But i would be happy to see them on the game and lore again.

More factions is allways better and it was so cool see the arrow of bretonian cavalry charguing!

[Lurynsar]

6 hours ago, Galvainn said:

@Lurynsar I mostly agree with your post, I also expect some things to go in the near future. Removing Greenskins is an understandable move in itself, however I feel the "replacement Orcs" (Bonesplitters and Ironjawz) are somewhat lacking in model and unit variety. Granted they are relatively early AoS releases, and current factions are a bit more fleshed out, but if someone wants to run a full Orc army, there is little choice with the Greenskins gone.

I started out WFB as a Bretonnian player, but I cannot see them work in the AoS setting. GW did not, however, have to remove them completely as far as I'm concerned. Some kits would work great in an updated, generic human faction (the Men-at-Arms kit especially is still wonderful). To me, the one thing still lacking from AoS is a decent human faction. There are hints at the humans of the Mortal Realms everywhere in the lore, but I (and I think many others with me) would love to see a set of human kits and a human army for AoS.

Agreed. The Orcs that we have now are a fraction of what they could be. More Wyverns for Ironjawz, and perhaps other wild beasts they’ve got covered in chains and sent to fight for them. 

Bone constructs for the Bonesplitters? Yes please. I would love a bone monstrosity brought to life by Orc Shamans to rampage across their enemies. Raising walls of bones to protect their troops? Raining sharp bone fragments onto their enemies? Imagine the possibilities! 

This is exactly where I think GW should focus their efforts. Taking what works and cranking it to 11. Sure KO might be lacking, but visually they’re amazing and some of what really draws me to AoS. I want more of that and less “bring back the Empire” 

as to a human faction I would love it. I’m not sure any of the models around fit it, but I’d be willing to see some repurposed. I just want the eventual human faction to be so much more than Empire 2.0

[mmimzie]

I'd say i don't want many of these armies back simple because they just don't fit, and fit so much in with the old warhammer fantasy battle. 

So much of TK and bretonia were tied very powerfully to where they were, and not as much who they were.

TK were about the desert and being the army from there, and those specific places. I like the loss of this, and that this is gone from this world. The end times meant we lost this thing and it's gone. They are so cool to see as an old army, and i'd be happy to play against them and their legacy rules form time to time. 

Brentonia are just different flavor humans with a higher tier humanity and lower tier human schemism.  They almost didn't even fit with the setting of the game they came from.  As even the other humans had black powder, steam tanks, and wore Renaissance style clothing.  Just like TK they were all about that place and that exact situation that saw them in this forever in this place sort of world.  I like the idea that FEC is who they are now. 

Get mob and regular orcs, man i'm so jazzed gloomspite is it's own faction. I am soooooooo happy goblin finally get to be there own thing. Gah that's so cool to me. I like that you have the option to use some of them as allies as well, and the odd goblin wizard can often be a great idea. 

I think it super sucks that those playing alot of these armies can't use models they've had and enjoyed for years, and i think it's lame they are shelved. There is no way around this form the stand point of wanting to see what's new. 

That all said, i am fine with them retiring model lines that get long in the tooth or don't fit the meta, or that die to help keep the plot going.  I want the landscape of the game to change and for the story to develop. I'd like the land scape to shift more and seem potentially more thing develping plot wise, and even armies dying out again over the next 5-10 years.  Heck it's pretty lame to me that slannesh didn't even excape with the release of the book. All the videos and wiggling of the chains was pretty exciting, but it's made cheap by not having any movement on that front. 

Heck forbidden powers is just gonna be some one opening sigmar's toy box, and it won't really push the narrative all that far along, still trudging along at a snails pace. 

TLDR: Out with the old in with the new, Sorry your models are shelved, and i don't mind if they shelve some of mine, i want more lore progress, slannesh should be free by now. 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by mmimzie

[Vanger]

People don't want Brettons back, they want mounted knights and the knight lances back. Not the Lady, not the Men at Arms and the rest of the army, no one ever used. They didn't fit the aesthetic of WHFB and they definitely don't fit the aesthetic of AoS. Also medival, chivalrous knights can't be copyrighted and that's what was their undoing.
They are the Flesh-eater Courts now or if GW ever gets around to give Free People the treatment, some of their units will find a home there.

Tomb Kings. While they looked cool, they were always a pain in the ass to collect. I never heard people raving about how great a kit the Screaming Ckull Catapult was. Or how well designed their bone horses were. People like the memes about Setra and the egyptian aesthetic. Another thing agains TK is, that they would play very identical to existing Death armies, so what's the point? If they ever do a new Death faction that's a redesign of TK, then it will need a lot ow work on models and rules, to differentiate them from existing armies and make them fit the AoS look.

Gitmobs are there, it's the Gitz. If you ever tought about WHFB and goblins, then Night Goblins weas what came to your mind. They were always the iconic part of the Goblin range, They have now their own identity and army.

Greenskinz are kinda in the same problem as TK and death armies, that game design wise they have no place. You have your lightly armoured orruks, the Boneplinterz, you have your more heavily armoured ones, that's the Ironjawz. If they would expand the Ironjawz, there they could make a comeback as light infantry, light cavalry, orruking warmachines or being ranged fighters. But as a seperate faction? Nope, not seeing it from a game design perspective.
Or again, they get a complete redesign.
 

[Clan's Cynic]

On 5/10/2019 at 4:45 AM, Kyriakin said:

 I swear that some posters have a borderline fetish for other people's armies being obsoleted, and even push for further squattings (e.g. Dispossessed, Wanderers, etc.) on some threads and Facebook posts I've seen. I'm not sure if it's an anti-WHFB/grognard thing, or just some weird schadenfreude.

There's a prevalent attitude on here that due to the overwhelmingly negative reaction AoS's announcement and launch had, fans of WHFB content need to be 'punished' by proxy. It doesn't help that this site became so successful because great swathes came from other forums where AoS is often derided even to this day. This manifests in glee at the prospect of doing away with just about anything that came from Fantasy, especially if they can slide in a passive aggressive remark about WHFB players. Of course, this is done under the veneer of 'positivity' in favour of AoS, so it's very much allowed.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[Overread]

2 hours ago, Vanger said:

 They didn't fit the aesthetic of WHFB and they definitely don't fit the aesthetic of AoS. Also medival, chivalrous knights can't be copyrighted and that's what was their undoing.
 

Please tell me which of GW's armies ARE copyrightable as of right now, because besides the name and lore and the specific sculpts there isn't a single army GW produces that is protected by Copyright as you are suggesting was the reason for the downfall of bretonnia. 

People keep highlighting the copyright issue without actually understanding the meaning of it nor the realities of it. GW cannot create anything unique that won't be copied - in fact their very act of creation results in copies from the 3rd party companies producing alternate lines. Raging Heroes has several armies which are 100% copies of GW armies in concept and its perfectly and totally legal. 

 

 

 

 

I'll agree Bretonnia as a faction is dead, but the concept of knights on horseback (or fantasy beasts) is very much not dead and what many want. Flesheaters don't give that feeling at all, they might follow part of the story, but they have no mounted units. In fact Nurgle Knights get closer to that feeling than Flesh Eaters ever will. 

There's nothing bad in that at all, FEC can follow the story but he theme of mounted knights; rank and file infantry; kings and nobility; lords and ladies etc..... That's what people want from a knightly army and GW could easily deliver that through a human faction within the Realms. Sigmar's army sort of covers it but not quite because they are demi-gods; the background story to them is very different and their size and postures are oversized due to their larger than normal bodies. 

 

There is ample room for a knightly horseback (or magical beast) army within the realms. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Overread

[michu]

There's simple solution - additional  knights for Free peoples (general on demigryph and something like that) and TK-like bone constructs for Deathrattle. 

[Thiagoma]

3 minutes ago, michu said:

There's simple solution - additional  knights for Free peoples (general on demigryph and something like that) and TK-like bone constructs for Deathrattle. 

While i agree about mixing Brettonian things into Free Peoples the issue with TK is Settra.

TKs like army without him would be kinda boring.

 

[Overread]

It depends if you want TK or the visual design of TK. If you want TK like AoS has Skaven and Lizardmen then its a harder battle to win over and less likely to happen. However if you want magical constructs iwth an Egyptian theme and some of the old sculpts brought back (remembering make of the construct models were actually pretty darn new models). Then the latter - throwing them in with an existing army - is perfectly possible to happen. 

 

 

[michu]

Thats what I meant @Overread. Not "TK are back", but "bone constructs are back" - bone giants, skeletal lions and undead hybrids. People with Necrosphinxes could easily proxy things.

Edited May 11, 2019 by michu

[Thiagoma]

36 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

There's a prevalent attitude on here that due to the overwhelmingly negative reaction AoS's announcement and launch had, fans of WHFB content need to be 'punished' by proxy. It doesn't help that this site became so successful because great swathes came from other forums where AoS is often derided even to this day. This manifests in glee at the prospect of doing away with just about anything that came from Fantasy, especially if they can slide in a passive aggressive remark about WHFB players. Of course, this is done under the veneer of 'positivity' in favour of AoS, so it's very much allowed.

Fells like it. I Started AoS on Spire of Dawn, so, on AoS. I strongly post regarding seen my faction rebuild and playable. Or mixed with Tyrion/Teclis  folks.

I dont think i  am unreasonable, but there is always one of the "it doesnt fit like AoS" . 

What does that even means? AoS have so much variety and mox of diferent stuff that the term is sort of moot.

I dont like Ironjaws,  i find then really generic and boring, but i hope they get more models and i nice new BT because some players love it.

Dispossessed have more pages on the discussion threads than Fyreslayers.  Are those people unreasonable to expect their time to shine?

Edited May 11, 2019 by Thiagoma

[Kyriakin]

8 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

While i agree about mixing Brettonian things into Free Peoples the issue with TK is Settra.

TKs like army without him would be kinda boring.

Khalida says "Hi"

Edited May 11, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Melcavuk]

34 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

There's a prevalent attitude on here that due to the overwhelmingly negative reaction AoS's announcement and launch had, fans of WHFB content need to be 'punished' by proxy. It doesn't help that this site became so successful because great swathes came from other forums where AoS is often derided even to this day. This manifests in glee at the prospect of doing away with just about anything that came from Fantasy, especially if they can slide in a passive aggressive remark about WHFB players. Of course, this is done under the veneer of 'positivity' in favour of AoS, so it's very much allowed.

I keep seeing this come up and frankly it seems short sighted and boils down to:

Agree with what I want and you must be awesome

Disagree and its because you have anti fantasy bias and therefore your opinion means nothing.

 

To be honest its getting slightly repetitive as a way of dismissing the opinions of those who dont agree with bringing back faction X or Y. You might not like the opinions of those who disagree with you but tarring them all with the "Anti fantasy brush" to try and insult huge swathes of the playerbase is less passive aggressive and more deliberately divisive.

[Kyriakin]

17 minutes ago, Overread said:

It depends if you want TK or the visual design of TK. If you want TK like AoS has Skaven and Lizardmen then its a harder battle to win over and less likely to happen. However if you want magical constructs iwth an Egyptian theme and some of the old sculpts brought back (remembering make of the construct models were actually pretty darn new models). Then the latter - throwing them in with an existing army - is perfectly possible to happen. 

Their issue is being stuck on the same sprue as the derp-skeletons. This affects both the sphinx and the snakes.

If GW could somehow reconfigure plastic sprues, things would be very different (not just TK, but squatted Silver Tower models, etc.).

Edited May 11, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Mungrun]

I would prefer a new army of centaurs helping human peasants in exchange for food and feeling that they (centaurs) are a superior class/race/status compared to the peasants they protect, like the old knights of Bretonia but more "fantasized".

Spoiler

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Mungrun

[Thiagoma]

7 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Their issue is being stuck on the same sprue as the derp-skeletons. This affects both the sphinx and the snakes.

If GW could somehow reconfigure plastic sprues, things would be very different (not just TK, but squatted Silver Tower models, etc.).

I will concede on the Derp Skeletons ( the term is hilarious).

But that said, Charriots, Sepulcrals and Sphinx are awesome plastic kits with assembly options.

Make a skeleton kit with bow/melee options and a new Settra/Khalida and you are good to go on Tks.