Concerns with the development of AOS 2

[Overread]

7 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

And for anyone that missed out on this for WFB,  we can see this with the various FFG Star Wars properties happening as we speak. Legion and X-Wing are getting far more attention and are attracting far more players, Armada and Assault have been more or less ignored (its been over a year since the last product release for Armada) and they are leaking players like a sieve.

The sad thing is that GW have been about the only ones to realise that "official content" doesn't mean new releases. Just keeping up with tactical articles; a sale; lore discussions; showcasing; painting guides etc... Ergo just by paying attention to it officially keeps things rolling. When a company only releases info on new releases they cut their marketing options down a lot and they run the risk that a game gets "ignored" for ages. The longer they ignore it the more gamers go "Well is this dead now? Are they going to stop producing models? Is the end Nigh?" whilst new gamers don't notice the game as readily because its not being marketed nor advertised.

 

I think GW has steadily come to realise this and is taking steps to resolve it. 

 

In the end two things can kill game buzz - lack of attention and multiple missed deadlines for releases. 

[Uiovich]

On 3/23/2019 at 3:34 AM, Ravinsild said:

 AoS is meant to feel like you are commanding an army like it plays in the books and other stories (Battletomes).

Books: arcanauts and thunderers picks off a buhcn of foes from the deck of fregate/ironclad. 

Game: 5 witch elves jump and bring down  full hp fregate for one combat phase.

I'm thinking about homerule for our local club like - we can shoot (no baloons, they busy) from ships, but arcanauts wargear should be as in a box, and 10 thunderers max per army. I like books more than my armybook 😒

[Dead Scribe]

5 hours ago, Ironbreaker said:

Personally I hate how freely mortal wounds are dished out. It's mostly because I play Dispossessed and have virtually no easy access to reliably produce mortal wounds. I am always on the receiving end. I desperately hope for an update soon to Dispossessed that either gives us access to mortal wounds or gives us a counter to them since we are supposed to be the tanks of Order.

If you are playing an army with no book you're going to get wrecked yeah.  Pick an army that has a new book and wait and hope that they give your faction a book sometime in the future is the best bet.

[Ironbreaker]

Just now, Dead Scribe said:

If you are playing an army with no book you're going to get wrecked yeah.  Pick an army that has a new book and wait and hope that they give your faction a book sometime in the future is the best bet.

Kind of hard to pick a new book when I spent money building a Dispossessed army and now starting a 40k army because the game is more alive where I am.

[Mayple]

6 hours ago, Ironbreaker said:

Personally I hate how freely mortal wounds are dished out. It's mostly because I play Dispossessed and have virtually no easy access to reliably produce mortal wounds. I am always on the receiving end. I desperately hope for an update soon to Dispossessed that either gives us access to mortal wounds or gives us a counter to them since we are supposed to be the tanks of Order.

What are you fighting that is dishing out the mortal wounds?

Dispossessed are deceptively strong, and not an auto-loss versus book armies at all (although you do enter at a disadvantage due to your speed, which I suspect a book would take steps to fix) 

[ledha]

43 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

If you are playing an army with no book you're going to get wrecked yeah.  Pick an army that has a new book and wait and hope that they give your faction a book sometime in the future is the best bet.

*laugh in phoenix temple*

[Ironbreaker]

10 minutes ago, Mayple said:

What are you fighting that is dishing out the mortal wounds?

Dispossessed are deceptively strong, and not an auto-loss versus book armies at all (although you do enter at a disadvantage due to your speed, which I suspect a book would take steps to fix) 

Skaven 

[Eevika]

18 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I would be interested to see if there was a market for rank and file games.  I hear about 9th and kings of war, but no one even remotely near me touches those games.  The only time I ever see Kings of War was at Adepticon.  And talking with some of those guys, their communities are also rather tiny and they have to travel to tournaments just to get in games.  I've never even seen a 9th Age game played anywhere except for on Youtube.

If there was a market for those games that was the same size and scope as AOS, I would think that at least one of those other games (KOW or 9th) would have a sizeable share of players as well, but it really doesn't seem to be near the case.

9th age is massive is northern Europe. In Finland 9th age has a much more active scene compared to AoS

[Mayple]

55 minutes ago, Ironbreaker said:

Skaven 

Then you shouldn't be having problems. Their Troops can't touch you, and their mortal wounds aren't big enough to compensate for their troops not touching you. Your shooting straight up wrecks them, which leaves their mobility as their primary advantage. 

What are you bringing? What are they bringing?  Rough estimate.

[Jamopower]

54 minutes ago, Eevika said:

9th age is massive is northern Europe. In Finland 9th age has a much more active scene compared to AoS

Northern and Eastern Europe, i.e. the countries that have had big interest in the ETC and whose tournament scene has formed around that.

[Ironbreaker]

23 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Then you shouldn't be having problems. Their Troops can't touch you, and their mortal wounds aren't big enough to compensate for their troops not touching you. Your shooting straight up wrecks them, which leaves their mobility as their primary advantage. 

What are you bringing? What are they bringing?  Rough estimate.

Allegiance: Dispossessed
- Grudge: Cowardly Hordes
Warden King (120)
- General
- Trait: Resolute 
- Artefact: Ancestral Pickaxe 
Runelord (100)
Gunmaster (80)
- Allies
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Ironbreakers (140)
10 x Irondrakes (180)
Organ Gun (120)
- Allies

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 200 / 200
Wounds: 69
 

 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Verminlord Warpseer (260)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic 
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone 
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 950 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 103

 

 

[Mayple]

@Ironbreaker

Ouch, yeah I can see how they're winning that. 

Irondrakes are your bread and butter, alongside Ironbreakers. A full unit of Irondrakes will KILL (to a rat) a full unit of 40 clanrats in a single shooting phase, provided you're in range with the whole unit. Maxing them out will go a long way for the core of your army, and synergises very well with ancestral pickaxe. 

Not to say warriors and such are bad (as they are cheaper), but Irondrakes/Ironbreakers and their kind are far superior and incredibly difficult, if not impossible to break through in large numbers. 

As your army currently stands, the skaven player will decimate your army piecemeal every time, because you have absolutely no staying power, while he (ironically) has plenty. Mortal wounds has nothing to do with it. He could vanquish your current army with clanrats alone.

Build a strong core unit (Irondrakes) and build around that, and you should have a lot more success many small units don't work out if they're not expendable and followed by a stronger force. 

Hope that helps Don't despair. Dispossessed has a bunch of untapped potential.

 

Edit:
I forgot to say, but 1000 points is also a terrible indicator of strength. Seraphon (for example) are absolutely bonkers in 1000 points, while relatively balanced in 2000 points, solely because they can generate a large percentage of their army through summoning, which is a flat number, and is therefore a much larger part of their 1000 pts army than 2000 pts army. 

In this scenario, your own army is severely underperforming, because your good units are expensive, which limits what you can bring in a 1000 points scenario, while your skaven opponent can bring whatever he wants freely because his stuff is cheap as dirt (because they're individually terrible)

[Mikester1487]

I personally have fully enjoyed the introduction of AoS 2nd edition and really don't have a problem with armies getting more terrian.

As far as mortal wound spamming I guess that's a thing? I've always been afraid of the units that pump out 60+ attacks rerolling over mortal wounds as mortal wound out put can be strong, but it doesn't feel as spammed as before. That's just my take from playing in my local area and not seeing outside of it just yet. 

Things I would like to see updated are silly combos with 8 nagash spells and his ability to shrug off everything tossed at him. Some of the magic rules and realm scape features just really have knee capped the other army that I play. Which is kharadron. It's a balance that takes time when the brand new toys come out and I'll just stick with stormcast in the meantime. 

The only other thing i would like to see brought in a bit more is command point spamming. Units getting +4-5 attacks or getting an auto charge in just make other choices for your army kind of pointless (looking at you gavriel).

[Ironbreaker]

16 minutes ago, Mayple said:

@Ironbreaker

Ouch, yeah I can see how they're winning that. 

Irondrakes are your bread and butter, alongside Ironbreakers. A full unit of Irondrakes will KILL (to a rat) a full unit of 40 clanrats in a single shooting phase, provided you're in range with the whole unit. Maxing them out will go a long way for the core of your army, and synergises very well with ancestral pickaxe. 

Not to say warriors and such are bad (as they are cheaper), but Irondrakes/Ironbreakers and their kind are far superior and incredibly difficult, if not impossible to break through in large numbers. 

As your army currently stands, the skaven player will decimate your army piecemeal every time, because you have absolutely no staying power, while he (ironically) has plenty. Mortal wounds has nothing to do with it. He could vanquish your current army with clanrats alone.

Build a strong core unit (Irondrakes) and build around that, and you should have a lot more success many small units don't work out if they're not expendable and followed by a stronger force. 

Hope that helps Don't despair. Dispossessed has a bunch of untapped potential.

 

Edit:
I forgot to say, but 1000 points is also a terrible indicator of strength. Seraphon (for example) are absolutely bonkers in 1000 points, while relatively balanced in 2000 points, solely because they can generate a large percentage of their army through summoning, which is a flat number, and is therefore a much larger part of their 1000 pts army than 2000 pts army. 

In this scenario, your own army is severely underperforming, because your good units are expensive, which limits what you can bring in a 1000 points scenario, while your skaven opponent can bring whatever he wants freely because his stuff is cheap as dirt (because they're individually terrible)

I actually win quite a bit against that list. 

[Mayple]

1 minute ago, Ironbreaker said:

I actually win quite a bit against that list. 

Huh. All the power to you then  I was under the impression you were losing hard to it. Which by all means, you should, so you're obviously doing things right on the board. Kudos.

Then what's the problem? If you're winning most of the time, then the supposed mortal wound spam isn't hindering you. 

[boombyeyeah]

I think the only thing Aos needs against MWs is some rule like "look out Sir". Mortal Wounds are essential to break super tough units, but oneshotting heroes just feels wrong. 

[Pitloze]

What I dislike is the endless game of catch up that happens once a tome releases. When one army gets a new tome a few others have their tome get outdated at the same time. I'd like to see the yearly GHB add some temporary buffs to some armies to hold them over until their own tome arrives, even the armies that will be getting a tome later that year (which we won't know about). And personally I feel that with GHB2019 not a single army should still remnants of the 1.0 age. Which means every warscroll should be updated, and every 1.0 army rule & abilities should be looked at if it still fits in the 2.0 version or else it should be updated.

Also I'd like battletomes in general to be more about flavor, tactics, and lore. And less about raw power increases.

[Requizen]

1 minute ago, Pitloze said:

What I dislike is the endless game of catch up that happens once a tome releases. When one army gets a new tome a few others have their tome get outdated at the same time. I'd like to see the yearly GHB add some temporary buffs to some armies to hold them over until their own tome arrives, even the armies that will be getting a tome later that year (which we won't know about). And personally I feel that with GHB2019 not a single army should still remnants of the 1.0 age. Which means every warscroll should be updated, and every 1.0 army rule & abilities should be looked at if it still fits in the 2.0 version or else it should be updated.

Also I'd like battletomes in general to be more about flavor, tactics, and lore. And less about raw power increases.

I mean.... they did update a large majority of Warscrolls with AoS2/GHB2019. And a lot of factions got Allegiance Abilities in GHB2019. Only a couple things were left out, I feel like 80-90% of the game got updated at that time. 

[Pitloze]

7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I mean.... they did update a large majority of Warscrolls with AoS2/GHB2019. And a lot of factions got Allegiance Abilities in GHB2019. Only a couple things were left out, I feel like 80-90% of the game got updated at that time. 

I mean stuff like "wholly within" and what is still a 6+ or a unmodified 6. Stuff like that. Armies should not have to wait for their own tome to have stuff like that updated.

[Thiagoma]

19 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

What I dislike is the endless game of catch up that happens once a tome releases. When one army gets a new tome a few others have their tome get outdated at the same time. I'd like to see the yearly GHB add some temporary buffs to some armies to hold them over until their own tome arrives, even the armies that will be getting a tome later that year (which we won't know about). And personally I feel that with GHB2019 not a single army should still remnants of the 1.0 age. Which means every warscroll should be updated, and every 1.0 army rule & abilities should be looked at if it still fits in the 2.0 version or else it should be updated.

Also I'd like battletomes in general to be more about flavor, tactics, and lore. And less about raw power increases.

Annnd finally give BTs to people who still dont have one, Like Aelves, Free Peoples, Slaneesh, Wanderers...

[Inquisitorsz]

As much as I like the simplified weapon/unit profiles, and having all the relevant rules on the one warscroll.... I do still like the idea of having some more generic rules like WFB used to have. Strike First, Killing Blow, Flammable etc.... 
Yes you had to dig through the rulebook to find them, but there weren't really that many. 

Now we have every single type of shield doing something different. It adds nice variety but also means the warscrolls are getting huge and bloated.  
Check out the Plague Monks warscroll as a perfect example. Yes it still fits on one card (unlike some characters) but the book keeping for that unit is crazy.  So many different dice rolls and different weapon profiles and different ability triggers.  

I feel like they've moved far beyond the simplified design and are starting to dip into "bloat" territory.  
It's tough for opponents now because instead of saying "my guys have these 3 rules and this stat line" you now have to read every warscroll to know what your opponent's troops do. 

Having general rules like "unmodified 6" or "wholly within" would allow for quicker, easier and wider updates without having to go through and individually update every warscroll and battletome. Maybe it's not that simple, but the "wholly within" part is a great example where the newer armies have a much harder time buffing their units.  
I guess it's not enough of a difficulty because most new armies are stronger than the old ones, but you get some cases like nighthaunt and gloomspite where they rely on those buffs more than others and suffer because of it. 

[kenshin620]

On 3/24/2019 at 10:32 AM, kenshin620 said:

AoS 3.0, everyone get back into movement tray regiments!

Mmmmm movement trays.🤩

Oh my goodness I was half right, they're making movement trays for 40k!

What has this world come to! 😱

[Sleboda]

Games of Epic in 40K scale? Yes, please!

[Riavan]

On 3/27/2019 at 9:30 AM, Inquisitorsz said:

As much as I like the simplified weapon/unit profiles, and having all the relevant rules on the one warscroll.... I do still like the idea of having some more generic rules like WFB used to have. Strike First, Killing Blow, Flammable etc.... 
Yes you had to dig through the rulebook to find them, but there weren't really that many. 

Now we have every single type of shield doing something different. It adds nice variety but also means the warscrolls are getting huge and bloated.  
Check out the Plague Monks warscroll as a perfect example. Yes it still fits on one card (unlike some characters) but the book keeping for that unit is crazy.  So many different dice rolls and different weapon profiles and different ability triggers.  

I feel like they've moved far beyond the simplified design and are starting to dip into "bloat" territory.  
It's tough for opponents now because instead of saying "my guys have these 3 rules and this stat line" you now have to read every warscroll to know what your opponent's troops do. 

Having general rules like "unmodified 6" or "wholly within" would allow for quicker, easier and wider updates without having to go through and individually update every warscroll and battletome. Maybe it's not that simple, but the "wholly within" part is a great example where the newer armies have a much harder time buffing their units.  
I guess it's not enough of a difficulty because most new armies are stronger than the old ones, but you get some cases like nighthaunt and gloomspite where they rely on those buffs more than others and suffer because of it. 

I agree.

 

I also think all the realm rules and stuff does this too. They need to just take the best ones that people actually use and add them as generic options, cutting the rest of it out.

[froo]

On 3/23/2019 at 4:15 AM, Skabnoze said:

There was something wrong with using metal squigs in the past?  I never got that memo...

Metal is less bouncy than plastic! Duh...