AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Jymmy]

Can you share the new spiderfang rules please??

[Ganigumo]

5 minutes ago, Jymmy said:

Can you share the new spiderfang rules please??

I'll do a text version since I'm unsure if we're allowed to post the images.
Traits:
Spiderfang units ignore spells and endless spells on a 5+

Skitterstrands rerolls hits against wizards and priests

Command Trait:
Webspinner only: once per battle activate the bad moon effect for spiderfang mapwide

Artifact:

Spiderfang Hero: -1 bravery aura for enemies within 6, +1 bravery aura for allies wholly within 12

 

Loonshhrine Update for spider riders with a spiderfange general
Battalions:

Spider Cluster: 2-4 Arachnarok Spider

Add 1 to hit rolls for melee attacks

 

Skitterswarm:

0-1 Scuttleboss or Webspinner Shaman

3+ Spider Riders

At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn redeploy d3 units from the battalion within 6" of a board edge and more than 9" away from enemies

 

Grimscuttle Nest:

2-3 Skitterstrand Arachnarok

Instead of moving models from the battalion can redeploy anywhere more than 9" away from enemy units.

[Incineroar87]

Sons of Behemat are the next White Drawf focus too, so grots/moonclan will have to wait for Broken Realms to get a update.  Guessing we will see a Skargrott faction thing there.

[Aelfric]

On 12/9/2020 at 1:28 PM, Bozgum said:

...and one more artefact for the Hag... maybe give the Aetherquartz studded hide to her, the Glowy Howzit to the general and the dankhold boss a more fighty weapon like aqshy's exploding 6's or Chamon's re-roll 1 to W? Good combo with dankholdd boss ability me thinks.

Any thoughts/remarks/changes to the list?

Wouldn't it make more sense to have two Stomping MM battalions, since the battalion ability is so much better?

[Bozgum]

10 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to have two Stomping MM battalions, since the battalion ability is so much better?

Well, part of it is fluff. But honestly, I like the variation and to deal out even more damage with the few attacks the Rockguts have, even if the +1 Damage is only on 6's to W.
But technically two Stomping MM could be also fun and saves those extra 10pts to get the arachnacouldron for the Hag instead of the scuttletide.

[Bozgum]

13 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I'll do a text version since I'm unsure if we're allowed to post the images.
Traits:
Spiderfang units ignore spells and endless spells on a 5+

Skitterstrands rerolls hits against wizards and priests

Command Trait:
Webspinner only: once per battle activate the bad moon effect for spiderfang mapwide

Artifact:

Spiderfang Hero: -1 bravery aura for enemies within 6, +1 bravery aura for allies wholly within 12

 

Loonshhrine Update for spider riders with a spiderfange general
Battalions:

Spider Cluster: 2-4 Arachnarok Spider

Add 1 to hit rolls for melee attacks

 

Skitterswarm:

0-1 Scuttleboss or Webspinner Shaman

3+ Spider Riders

At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn redeploy d3 units from the battalion within 6" of a board edge and more than 9" away from enemies

 

Grimscuttle Nest:

2-3 Skitterstrand Arachnarok

Instead of moving models from the battalion can redeploy anywhere more than 9" away from enemy units.

Are the battalions also updates from existing ones (same names if I'm not mistaken? Except Grimscuttle nest) or just for Grimscuttle Tribes?

Either way I like what I see! - Only the Artefact is meh.

What about battalion pts?

Edit: Glogg's MM rules have been added in Warscroll builder

Edited December 15, 2020 by Bozgum

[Ganigumo]

4 hours ago, Bozgum said:

Are the battalions also updates from existing ones (same names if I'm not mistaken? Except Grimscuttle nest) or just for Grimscuttle Tribes?

Either way I like what I see! - Only the Artefact is meh.

What about battalion pts?

Edit: Glogg's MM rules have been added in Warscroll builder

All the battalions are "Grimscuttle <name>", they're locked to the subfaction but don't replace the old ones so you can use the old ones if you want. all 3 are 140 points.

The rules are pretty good, but spiders are too terrible to really take advantage of these good rules. hopefully we see some more point drops.

[Dankboss]

I think one of the primary issues is the complete reliance on a bubble of -1 to hit to keep spiders safe, as they're made of paper otherwise, and slapping a 5+ spell save does not fix it in the slightest. Slaanesh can work as a glass cannon because it can disrupt the ability for the enemy to fight reliably, but Spiderfang would needs flingers and itchy nuisance to do this, which are nowhere near as good, while also not having the damage of a glass cannon, since it's all fishing for 5+/6+s.

Jaws of Mork can just deal flat damage in contrast, which is why they can compete in the glass cannon niche. I'm not really seeing anything spiders can do that squigs can't do better, besides mortal wounds.

Now I think the way spiders are played will have a real shakeup, maybe leaning towards an alpha ambush type playstyle, which will net some wins. But their consistency is a real issue from what I can see. Furthermore, returning 3-6 spiders pales in comparison to 10, 20 or 30 grots, however many squigs or 2/3/5 Troggoths, so they can't rely on that to take risky plays that the loonshrine opens up.

[C0deb1ue]

I think at this point, you just need to wait for the new book and pray they have done better.

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I think one of the primary issues is the complete reliance on a bubble of -1 to hit to keep spiders safe, as they're made of paper otherwise, and slapping a 5+ spell save does not fix it in the slightest. Slaanesh can work as a glass cannon because it can disrupt the ability for the enemy to fight reliably, but Spiderfang would needs flingers and itchy nuisance to do this, which are nowhere near as good, while also not having the damage of a glass cannon, since it's all fishing for 5+/6+s.

Jaws of Mork can just deal flat damage in contrast, which is why they can compete in the glass cannon niche. I'm not really seeing anything spiders can do that squigs can't do better, besides mortal wounds.

Now I think the way spiders are played will have a real shakeup, maybe leaning towards an alpha ambush type playstyle, which will net some wins. But their consistency is a real issue from what I can see. Furthermore, returning 3-6 spiders pales in comparison to 10, 20 or 30 grots, however many squigs or 2/3/5 Troggoths, so they can't rely on that to take risky plays that the loonshrine opens up.

The damage just isn't there for spiders at the moment. Here's the math:

Spider Riders

spider bow .06

crooked spear 0.08 damage each  (5 attacking would do .40, 8 would do  .64,10 would do .80)
spider bite .25 (per attack) (5 attacking would do 2.5, 10 would do 5)
with mortals on 5+  0.373 (5 attacking would do 3.73, 10 would do 7.46)
with mortals on 5+ and double mortals  .707 (5 attacking would do 7.07, 10 would do 14.14)
with double mortals  .413 (5 attacking would do 4.13, 10 would do 8.26)

Arachnarok (depending on the variant they get 0,8, or 10 crooked spears)

arachnarok bite 3.7 (4 attacks)
with mortals on 5+ 1.78 + 2.667 =4.447
with mortals on 5+ and double mortals 1.78 + 5.333 =7.113
with double mortals 2.37 + 2.667 =5.037

arachnarok legs 1.78 (8 attacks)

 

Scuttleboss 2.37

Mortals on 5s 3.187

double mortals 3.7

double mortals & mortals on 5s 5.854

quadruple mortals 6.364

quadruple mortals & mortals on 5s 11.696

Black Fang + 1.333 damage

the only scenario in which these guys do any damage is spider riders with both buffs active putting out ~15 wounds against a 4+, arachnaroks don't even break 10 damage with full buffs (although the shaman variant might since his attack profile is better than most of the other profiles....). The scuttleboss is a pretty good contender as well, especially since he can do damage while being mostly self sufficient.

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Ganigumo
minor math issue on spider rider double mortals

[Dankboss]

13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The damage just isn't there for spiders at the moment. Here's the math:

Spider Riders

spider bow .06

crooked spear 0.08 damage each  (5 attacking would do .40, 8 would do  .64,10 would do .80)
spider bite .25 (per attack) (5 attacking would do 2.5, 10 would do 5)
with mortals on 5+  0.373 (5 attacking would do 3.73, 10 would do 7.46)
with mortals on 5+ and double mortals  .707 (5 attacking would do 7.07, 10 would do 14.14)
with double mortals  .413 (5 attacking would do 3.13, 10 would do 6.26)

Arachnarok (depending on the variant they get 0,8, or 10 crooked spears)

arachnarok bite 3.7 (4 attacks)
with mortals on 5+ 1.78 + 2.667 =4.447
with mortals on 5+ and double mortals 1.78 + 5.333 =7.113
with double mortals 2.37 + 2.667 =5.037

arachnarok legs 1.78 (8 attacks)

 

Scuttleboss 2.37

Mortals on 5s 3.187

double mortals 3.7

double mortals & mortals on 5s 5.854

quadruple mortals 6.364

quadruple mortals & mortals on 5s 11.696

Black Fang + 1.333 damage

the only scenario in which these guys do any damage is spider riders with both buffs active putting out ~15 wounds against a 4+, arachnaroks don't even break 10 damage with full buffs (although the shaman variant might since his attack profile is better than most of the other profiles....). The scuttleboss is a pretty good contender as well, especially since he can do damage while being mostly self sufficient.

 

I figured as much. I'm struggling to figure out what Spiders want to be.

[Ganigumo]

54 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

I figured as much. I'm struggling to figure out what Spiders want to be.

I think they want to be some sort of sneaky hit/run style light cavalry army. Arachnaroks in general need entirely new profiles as their damage is a joke and their mobility is atrocious. Poisoned spears or bows would have made a HUGE difference here, and even salvaged the arachnarok profiles a bit. If they had went all in on the hit/run style having poisoned spears only if they weren't in combat at the start of the turn/battle round would be an interesting halfway point, and encourage the hit/run style combat.

[Aelfric]

9 hours ago, Bozgum said:

Well, part of it is fluff. But honestly, I like the variation and to deal out even more damage with the few attacks the Rockguts have, even if the +1 Damage is only on 6's to W.
But technically two Stomping MM could be also fun and saves those extra 10pts to get the arachnacouldron for the Hag instead of the scuttletide.

Have fun with your 3000 point mega battle and let us know how you get on.  

[novakai]

3 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I figured as much. I'm struggling to figure out what Spiders want to be.

i always though Spiderfang was trying to be the BCR-like calvary behemoth army and their strength compare to squig was reliable movement and MW output. but i don't think the effort was there to make spiderfang viable when the rules where written at the time. 

i think having a lack of good command abilities, having most of the A-rok variant being very subpar,  and  being both squishy and elite (in term of objective holding) at the same time really hurts the army

Edited December 15, 2020 by novakai

[Rangeltoft]

to be fair, i don´t think gloomspite were writen with the idea of 4 diffrent armies in a singel book, but more as a mix and match book between all the diffrent "subfactions", alot like the Cites of Sigmar battletome. While it´s possible to run an army of only squigs, the army might work, but gets alot better if you mix in a few stabbas.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Rangeltoft said:

to be fair, i don´t think gloomspite were writen with the idea of 4 diffrent armies in a singel book, but more as a mix and match book between all the diffrent "subfactions", alot like the Cites of Sigmar battletome. While it´s possible to run an army of only squigs, the army might work, but gets alot better if you mix in a few stabbas.

With these new Celestial sub-factions, it appears as though they may have come to realise that many Gloomspite devotees have particular favourites within the overall faction.  We can only hope that the next Battletome will better reflect this while still offering a variety of Gitz soups.  Perhaps a version of the Orruk Warclans set-up might fit the bill.

[novakai]

6 hours ago, Rangeltoft said:

to be fair, i don´t think gloomspite were writen with the idea of 4 diffrent armies in a singel book, but more as a mix and match book between all the diffrent "subfactions", alot like the Cites of Sigmar battletome. While it´s possible to run an army of only squigs, the army might work, but gets alot better if you mix in a few stabbas.

i don't know, the way they did the Keyword bingo and battalion implies that it was suppose to be design to play army as specific subsect then souping and truth is  the book doesn't really favor souping outside of using stabbas and squigs as bodies on objectives.  Also i find people just don't like fielding stabbas and playing the horde aspect of Gloomspites 

5 hours ago, Aelfric said:

With these new Celestial sub-factions, it appears as though they may have come to realise that many Gloomspite devotees have particular favourites within the overall faction.  We can only hope that the next Battletome will better reflect this while still offering a variety of Gitz soups.  Perhaps a version of the Orruk Warclans set-up might fit the bill.

the way i though  they could have done the battle tome was have three different allegiance with Moonclan (w/ Troggoths) as one, Spiderfang with specific tailor rules for them as another, and then use the Current Gloomspite rules as the Soup allegiance for both army

[Aelfric]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

the way i though  they could have done the battle tome was have three different allegiance with Moonclan (w/ Troggoths) as one, Spiderfang with specific tailor rules for them as another, and then use the Current Gloomspite rules as the Soup allegiance for both army

That's pretty much how the Orruk tome works and I wouldn't mind at all, but there are four distinct groups in Gitz rather than two and each requires its own sub-allegiance - preferably with a couple of tribe options each.  It's a lot to ask for, but one can hope.

[Rangeltoft]

12 hours ago, Aelfric said:

With these new Celestial sub-factions, it appears as though they may have come to realise that many Gloomspite devotees have particular favourites within the overall faction.  We can only hope that the next Battletome will better reflect this while still offering a variety of Gitz soups.  Perhaps a version of the Orruk Warclans set-up might fit the bill.

Or the Celestial sub-faction is because Gloomspite is the only army, besides Nighthaunt (atleast i think those two were the only ones), that doesnt have any Sub-faction alligance. Or maybe its just a money-grab move from GW´s side, to see if they can increase sales?

Don´t get me wrong, these subfactions have rekindled my intrese in Gloomspite and i do like that they are added, but i still don´t think mono-"subfaction" is the way to go, my opinion ofcourse.

7 hours ago, novakai said:

i don't know, the way they did the Keyword bingo and battalion implies that it was suppose to be design to play army as specific subsect then souping and truth is  the book doesn't really favor souping outside of using stabbas and squigs as bodies on objectives.  Also i find people just don't like fielding stabbas and playing the horde aspect of Gloomspites 

the way i though  they could have done the battle tome was have three different allegiance with Moonclan (w/ Troggoths) as one, Spiderfang with specific tailor rules for them as another, and then use the Current Gloomspite rules as the Soup allegiance for both army

Maybe, altho i think the "mega-battalions" are there to give you the option to play mono-subfaction rather then the main intent of the book. I guess we will never know.

as for people not wanting the field stabbas and playing hordes, that´s their choice. i´m more on the other side, i find it hard to play a list without stabbas.

 

/cheers Rangeltoft

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Rangeltoft said:

Gloomspite is the only army, besides Nighthaunt (atleast i think those two were the only ones), that doesnt have any Sub-faction alligance.

Mate, have you forgotten the existence of the greatest enemy of all  living-things?!

(Skaven)

[Rangeltoft]

26 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Mate, have you forgotten the existence of the greatest enemy of all  living-things?!

(Skaven)

Not really. Skaven get all their bonuses no matter what, so in this case they don´t count

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Rangeltoft said:

Not really. Skaven get all their bonuses no matter what, so in this case they don´t count

Well those are the allegiance ability, not the sub faction ability, considering that we-we don’t have that option either.

 

[novakai]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Mate, have you forgotten the existence of the greatest enemy of all  living-things?!

(Skaven)

You have clans Allegiance it’s better then having nothing at all really,

 

 

[Ganigumo]

17 hours ago, Rangeltoft said:

to be fair, i don´t think gloomspite were writen with the idea of 4 diffrent armies in a singel book, but more as a mix and match book between all the diffrent "subfactions", alot like the Cites of Sigmar battletome. While it´s possible to run an army of only squigs, the army might work, but gets alot better if you mix in a few stabbas.

 

3 hours ago, Rangeltoft said:

Don´t get me wrong, these subfactions have rekindled my intrese in Gloomspite and i do like that they are added, but i still don´t think mono-"subfaction" is the way to go, my opinion ofcourse.

 

 

Gitz rules definitely don't support this. The only warscrolls that can "soup" are stabbas/shootas, rockgut/fellwater troggoths, msu squig herds (because they're the cheapest unit at 70 points) and webspinner on arachnarok. Everything else needs the support to be effective, and you need to use the majority of your points to enable that support effectively. This isn't an army of power pairs. 

[Magnus The Blue]

Anyone tried a pure Moonclan Grots list?   I'm thinking something like this:

Loonboss with Giant Squig, General with Clammy Hand

2 * Loonboss

Fungoid Cave-Shaman

60 Stabbas

40 Stabbas

20 Stabbas

20 Shootas

2 * 6 Sneaky Snufflers

2* 5 Sporesplat Fanantics

5 Loonsmash Fanatics

Skulkmob Horde

Moonclan Skrap

All fits into the mega battalion, so one drop with plenty of bodies and Skulkmob/Clammy Hand for masses of unit recycling.  Hopefully combination of snufflers and Sporesplat will buff the Grots to a decent level of damage for clearing out objectives, but never played grots so open to thoughts and suggestions.