Rethinking the Grand Alliances

[EccentricCircle]

The D&D alignment analogy is an interesting one. Different people will probably plot factions in different places on the alignment diagram, depending on what appeals to them about that faction. I figured it might be interesting to see where I would plot them all, so I did. Its interesting that I think there have been a few shifts in alignment in the transition from WHFB to AoS. I think this highlights that each faction is made up of various different groups and archetypes with different moral and ethical stances. By splitting them up, and redefining some of them to be their extremes, I think the spread has changed somewhat. See what you all think. And of course feel free to disagree with me about the placement!

Age of Sigmar:

Warhammer Fantasy

[Baron Klatz]

Bah, out of likes for the day. Those are really good charts!

I like how chaos is basically the evil sun that everything orbits.

[EccentricCircle]

I like to imagine that the branchwraith in the bottom right is going "guys, come back!"

[Returning]

Think GW have backed themselves into a corner with the GAs not sure what the way forward is with them.

Put it another way pick up the GA: Order book pretty meaty oh and we've updated a faction and added another. GA: Chaos still pretty meaty and Nurgle got a refresh. GA:Death not quite so many pages here but who cares we got a mini reboot and Nighthaunt got an update. GA: Destruction where's the rest of the pages, well at least we got a goblin with mushroom on his head!

GA's are unbalanced especially in Orders favour - last thing we need is any more elves! Pointy eared gits!

[Vasshpit]

I find that the GA are just fine thematically. Just my opinion. 

Destro just happens to be the underdog currently. They'll get theirs. 

I firmly believe they need more races other than Orruks, Grots, and Oggors as the only driving races. 

I heard a suggestion about making Gargants like a n AoS equivalent to 40k knights. Great idea in my book!

I friggin love Troggoth! Love for them to get a bit of love. (Throgg style character but destro oriented and not chaos.)

And then  there's the possibility of... gasp... NEW races! O_O

What if... that rumored Kroot codex is rrreeeaaallly a battletome for AoS?....

 

Closing point, a 2-3 more years and we'll be on the way to massive options for all! ?

 

 

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

The next half wit who suggests Aelves, of any sort, get moved to Destructions will have the greatest WAAAGH descend upon them and everyone they have  ever cared or even spoken kindly to, every memeory of them shall be erased from history. I swear this on Gorkamorka’s name. No more I tell you this is lunarcy of it highest  order and I call upon all of Gork’s (or Mork’s) true children to embark on this mighty progrom to end this foolishness once and for all. 

[DanielFM]

6 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

The next half wit who suggests Aelves, of any sort, get moved to Destructions will have the greatest WAAAGH descend upon them and everyone they have  ever cared or even spoken kindly to, every memeory of them shall be erased from history. I swear this on Gorkamorka’s name. No more I tell you this is lunarcy of it highest  order and I call upon all of Gork’s (or Mork’s) true children to embark on this mighty progrom to end this foolishness once and for all. 

I think lack of understanding of what Destruction truly means is behind this nonsense, fellow gentleorruk.

Do you praise Gorkamorka? Nope. Out of Destruction.

Do you live purely to fight, destroy and eat? Nope. Out of Destruction.

Do you value peace and see agression only as a means to and end? Yes. Out of Destruction.

They want Idoneth in Destruction, better rewrite from the ground up their background or the background for Destruction.

[Ravinsild]

You know what’s cool about made up stuff? You can make up more stuff. So they can literally make up anything and then write to story to have it make sense and then sell those new models for profit. 

Destruction doesn’t have enough races/armies? Dwarves dug too deep in the ground and awakened and ancient race of insectoid people that then flooded the world and ate everything in their path. They looked like locusts. They’re called The Jade Swarm. (Hey isn’t that just fantasy Tyranids?) yes it is but it’s still a new race for AoS and still new models and cha Ching profit. Ez money. Rinse wash repeat. 

 

[Ninelives]

On 7/27/2018 at 2:45 PM, Clewz said:

Where do humans/free people who worship Nagash fall in?

Nagash more than the other deities is a multi-faced god. 

Some humans will worship Nagash and learn necromancy to raise the dead. 

Some other worship Nagash-Morr , "good Nagash" who is watching over the soul of their loved and dead ones. If we draw a (maybe farfetched) parallel to Ancient Greece, respect and worship of Hades did not make one a wraith or a spirit, did not make them a dead belonging in ******. 

[Kitty]

I have no idea why you think Deepkin would be Destruction. They build their cities, are reclusive and only seek a fight due to the need of souls to expand their race (which all races facing war must do one way or another). I still think that if Nagash wasn't Lord over all Death (#BringBackSettra) then they would fit perfectly into this category. They require souls for sustenance, their main magics are sprouted from this unusual form of necromancy (reanimating dead souls with live ones) and due to their very curse a lot of them would be considered "undead" in a bizarre sense (not physically dead) due to being spiritually dead.

Just my two cents, but I think GA's are silly so that's it for me.

[Circus of Paint]

I know if I was responsible for expanding Destruction, I’d take Fimir and make them a full-blown faction since they have an unique IP (I think?)

Moonclan, Ironjawz, Bonespiltterz and Beastclaw Raiders can also get expanded upon, with new models and rules.

Everything else can get its own soup Battletome (like Legions of Nagash).

[KHHaunts]

I get why some people wish to subdivide some the  more destructive or less rightious order factions (although i dont feels its nesscary)

But with all the descriptions ranging from clear and concise to vastly in depth i dont get how people STILL dont understand why each faction belongs to the grand alliance it does . . . . .

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, KHHaunts said:

I get why some people wish to subdivide some the  more destructive or less rightious order factions (although i dont feels its nesscary)

But with all the descriptions ranging from clear and concise to vastly in depth i dont get how people STILL dont understand why each faction belongs to the grand alliance it does . . . . .

I think its because not everyone has read all the lore. If you go by casual glancing at the range and the websites its actually hard to build up a good reliable picture of the lore at present. In the past it was easy - each race was its own people with its own distinct lands. Today its grand alliances and even if you read into the lore some are spread over interlocking different worlds. It actually gets rather fiddly (and some of GW's writing on it makes a time-line a bit fuzzy to follow too as they often jump around a bit). 

 

It's one area I really hope GW addresses on their core websites and the new Sigmar website. In time I think the message will filter through more clearly; but until then we will get a little confusion. GW could make it clearer if they more easily showed actual alliance blocks on their store website not just the Grand Alliances (esp for Order who have a lot of subfactions who cannot ally with each other - at least in matched play and in the lore)

[Tasman]

On 7/27/2018 at 7:53 AM, dmorley21 said:

I really don't view Sylvaneth as an Aelf faction. I get they're led by an Aelf, but they're much more like Seraphon to me at this point.

 

Also, as a newcomer (sort of, played WHFB 6th-8th Edition), the alliances were hard for me to understand. In reality, they still are. I don't think certain alliances should have to play certain styles either though. That's limiting. I think alliances should be just that... groups that would ally with each other more often than not. I would propose these alliances:

Alliance of Sigmar: SCE, Seraphon, Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, Kharadron Overlords, Dispossessed, Ironweld Arsenal, Swifthawk Agents, Phoenix Temple, Scourge Privateers, Order Draconis, Order Serpentis

Legions of Nagash: Deathlords, Deathrattle, Nighthaunt, Legion of Sacrament, Flesh-Eater Courts, Legion of Blood, Legion of Night, Soulblight

Chaos: Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, Everchosen, Darkoath, Legion of Azorgh, Chaos Herd (Beasts of Chaos)

Destruction: Ironjawz, Idoenth Deepkin, Daughters of Khaine, Moonclan Grots, Bonesplitterz, Spiderfang Grots, Beastclaw Raiders

Skaven: All of the Skaven clans.

 

I'd also add new factions of "death" to join the alliance of Sigmar. Vampire Courts, where orderly vampires watch over and protect their human subjects or a new version of something like Tomb Kings.

Yup. Kinda hard to consider then AELVES when there's plenty of times there's not an aelf on the table....

[KHHaunts]

In my oppinion The alliances do not need altering at all. I will admit there is a little grey area between some factions. Not Chaos that ones always been clear.

Death admitedly you can argue that Nagash is an empire builder so technically he is Order and that While Orruks might be a force of Nature suiting destruction Beastclaw raiders are still an ordered people however Savage.

I think that ultimatley the emphasis and significance of those alliances needs to be removed.

People keep mentionig what alliance they were in in WHFB but they never existed. Wood elves were considred pretty damn evil by brettonia and the undead were just as bad as chaos. but as mentioned previously they all had there own lands and history to explain the relationship to each individual faction.

Really i think that the grand alliances were a needed when the game started out and have since become dead weight.

 

There shouldnt be restrictions anyway and i think that having more faction crossed allies would be liberating. Keep the alliances by all means but by promoting more cross alliance rules and battalion and Allies etc it will take the emphasis and break the wall down.

One primary example is that Fyreslayers should be Allies of pretty much everyone as they are Axes for hire and have been shown in the lore to have worked with Chaos.

If someone wants to take a mixed slaves of darkness and fyreslayer army that should be established in the game (In more than open play that is)

[Vasshpit]

One thing that keeps coming up in lore is Fyreslayer and their mercenary ways... even working for chaos if the price is right but this never addressed rules wise that i'm aware of.

If a handful of factions took this road it could really spice things up.

 

(Should of read all of the above post. Derp.)

[BaldoBeardo]

Fimir - *never* gonna happen as a main-page army.

Retcon all you like, but someone will dig up the old WFB writings on fimir propagation at which point GW will be buried under PC hashtag campaigns and bad publicity.

[Double Misfire]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Fimir - *never* gonna happen as a main-page army.

Retcon all you like, but someone will dig up the old WFB writings on fimir propagation at which point GW will be buried under PC hashtag campaigns and bad publicity.

If you think Fimir are a historical PR nightmare, dig up the 6th edition rules for Steam Tanks. ??

[Defonotaspambot]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:49 PM, PJetski said:

Order doesn't mean "good guys", it just means they

• Oppose Chaos
• Are not undead
• Build civilizations

I think it's great that you can have factions like the objectively evil Daughters of Khaine, the morally questionable Seraphon, and tragically villainous Idoneth Deepkin loosely tied together with the mercantile Kharadron, the righteous and pragmatic Stormcast, and the urgold-lusting Fyreslayers.

Having those different shades of grey is a good thing for writing interesting stories and creating an interesting narrative.

I would rather not have the games factions be organized such that we have Death Elves, Destruction Elves, Order Elves, and Chaos Elves. That would be really boring.

I am a bit new to AoS and sorry to stray off topic a bit but what makes Seraphon morally questionable? 

[Overread]

Seraphon are questionable in so much as, unlike the rest of Order and even the Stormcast, the Seraphon have no cities or peoples on the physical world. Instead they are even more akin to angels in that when they sense a war against Chaos a slaan will attend and summon a mighty army from the heavens to fight. Their bodies built of magic and embodied with the old souls of those Slaan from the Ancient world. Once the battle is won they will then vanish back to their heavenly world.

They are allies of the highest convenience in that they will join battles at their whim and leave on their whim as well. They have their own master plan to bring true order to the universe, though to achieve that they must thwart Chaos and any other force that might stand in their way. As such their plans are largely unknown to the other races as their their peoples. So they are mighty warrior allies with their own agenda that doesn't really hinge on protecting the rest of the Order allies outside of where they can be helpful toward the Seraphon end goals (which are not united, there are internal factions, power struggles and different approaches within their structure - which leaves ripe material for them to turn on each other, to argue etc..)

 

 

So they are morally ambiguous because they are not conducting a moral war; but rather a war of an ordered way of life VS chaos. As such they are not bound by moral codes or ethics; they've no reason to necessarily help saved the injured upon the battlefield from their allies or to help reinforce or rebuild a settlement after a battle; nor provide supplies or support etc... And because they fully reside apart from the other races they don't even socialise on a basic level. 

http://ageofsigmar.wikia.com/wiki/Seraphon

[Defonotaspambot]

Great. Thanks. 

[Overread]

Ps if you're into lore there's loads of videos on it here for Sigmar 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_N4w4z6CQEBgRfvlwlID_A/videos

[Yoshiya]

7 hours ago, Overread said:

I think its because not everyone has read all the lore. If you go by casual glancing at the range and the websites its actually hard to build up a good reliable picture of the lore at present. In the past it was easy - each race was its own people with its own distinct lands. Today its grand alliances and even if you read into the lore some are spread over interlocking different worlds. It actually gets rather fiddly (and some of GW's writing on it makes a time-line a bit fuzzy to follow too as they often jump around a bit). 

 

It's one area I really hope GW addresses on their core websites and the new Sigmar website. In time I think the message will filter through more clearly; but until then we will get a little confusion. GW could make it clearer if they more easily showed actual alliance blocks on their store website not just the Grand Alliances (esp for Order who have a lot of subfactions who cannot ally with each other - at least in matched play and in the lore)

Yea, this is definitely true. A lot of more complicated factions require a full understanding of the lore to understand why they are in the alliance they are and not everyone can easily get hold of that lore.

Idoneth in particular are a complex race and I actually feel like the core book did a horrible job explaining them. For example it mentions that they are slavers in one section which runs completely counter to the actual battletome which states they only take souls (leaving behind sleeping bodies). The core book could have been talking about how the narmarti (the ones who use the souls) are effectively a slave caste but I remember it reading like they kidnapped people and took them to the bottom of the ocean.

Additionally, on the topic of idoneth, I know this has been done to death already in this topic but one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up is that they don't actually destroy. The battletome stories make mentions of towns left basically intact yet the citizens gone into a deep sleep they never awake from. The actual descriptions of their attacks have them floating over battlements and the like too rather than brute forcing their way in. All they do is appear, take their quota of souls the soul wardens told them they need and leave (ignore fuethan, they're more uniquely aggressive). Most of the enclaves even specifically don't attack children unless they really really need souls as they are not inherently evil or destructive.

 

[Overread]

I think the main Rule book deals more in rumour and hinting at them, so some of the taken slaves/captives might well not actually have been them. It's something GW does fairly often which is to have multiple potential narrators for Lore which means any one reference can be wrong because their viewpoint isn't correct. Some of those captives might also be from earlier raids when they were still working out how to steal souls and such.

Like a lot of Age of Sigmar right now there is a really neat basic concept and al ot of room to put flesh on the bones for each faction. 

[Kitty]

10 hours ago, Circus of Paint said:

I know if I was responsible for expanding Destruction, I’d take Fimir and make them a full-blown faction since they have an unique IP (I think?)

 

6 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Fimir - *never* gonna happen as a main-page army.

Retcon all you like, but someone will dig up the old WFB writings on fimir propagation at which point GW will be buried under PC hashtag campaigns and bad publicity.

 

Hey! I may be one of the five people that bought Forgeworld Fimir models but I think the cursed offspring of a poop daemon and a princess who need to rape humans to propogate their young should have a place in every high fantasy setting.

Honestly, a lot of factions have something horrible in their background that could make them non PC (and I mean Fimir is tame compared to some of the Slaanesh stuff in Liber Chaotica and earlier). All they would need to do is restart them as their own faction. 

 

...then again, I would almost sell a kidney if it meant Malal could return... I'll just keep daydreaming of the glory days over here ?