Rethinking the Grand Alliances

[Mr. White]

I'm a big fan of AoS and it's fluff. However, in the Rumor Thread I brought up again my confusion with all the aelf factions being in Order, when clearly they could have been spread around. Now, I know Order doesn't mean 'good', but the aelf factions we have now have very different ideologies and clearly could have been part of multiple GAs.:

Sylvaneth - aelves that want to maintain the cycle of life - Order

Deepkin - aelves pillaging and taking what isn't theres - Destruction

Daughters - aelves worshipping Khaine - Chaos

[new faction] - aelves that, though they live long, are jealous of the soulblight. they want immortal life as well and are the new stewards of the power of shadeglass. Now being immortal they need undying servants as well...maybe an army of shadeglass constructs powered by the souls trapped in the shadeglass of shadespire - Death

Now, it's that last faction that's sort of prompted this post. Seems to me that a faction of aelf necromancers, controlling the souls trapped within shadeglass would be a Death army...even if its forces were made up of glass constructs and elementals. It wouldn't _look_ like a Death army, but it clearly would be. Their cheating death and the controlling of souls.

Conversely, I play FEC, and they don't feel very Death at all. I mean, they aren't dead, don't summon or animate dead, don't like Nagash ,and any dead things they may ally with...they would want to eat, ghouls being eaters of the dead. So, technically, they would want to eat zombies and such. In fact, I think the only thing close to being dead in the FEC faction is their behemoth (terrorgheist or zombie dragon). Ghouls are living, insane, and simply want to devour flesh....this sounds like a Destruction army.

Also, a few small tweaks to the Bonesplitterz could see them in Death. Have them get power from eating beasts and having some weird beast-necromancy that gives them large undead creatures. Zombie mammoths, and such.

It seems to me that instead of dumping all greenskinz into Destruction, all aelves into Order, and anything related to graveyards into Death, there could have been a more unique blending of the GAs. Aelves across all of them, greenskinz across a few, etc.

[Overread]

Daughters won't join chaos, they loath chaos with a fanatical madness.  Morathi escaped Slaanesh's belly and most of the aelves are filled with souls ripped from his gut whilst he's trapped. Daughters are bloody and worship Khaine; they are really unreliable allies as likely to kill the enemy as their allies; but they loath and hate and will slaughter chaos with a brutal dance of death. 

I think that the Grand Alliances will fracture more and more, or at least Order will. Right now only stormcast can ally with everyone, the rest are broken into their own subgroups and whilst it will annoy some to lose Stormcast Allies, I can see it breaking up further at osme point in the future. 

 

However the bigger question is how GW is going to approach Order since they took 3 elf factions and broken them into something like nearly 20 subfactions. Either GW is going to remove some; merge a group into general allied single factions or expand them all one by one into modest full factions. It also depends on the long term view - if they have dozens of factions the question becomes when those factions can see new models and updates.

 

There's already 2 further Aelf full factions to come (basically devil and angel versions) so that adds to the mountain.

 

Really there's a huge amount of options and only GW knows what's going to happen. 

[PJetski]

Order doesn't mean "good guys", it just means they

• Oppose Chaos
• Are not undead
• Build civilizations

I think it's great that you can have factions like the objectively evil Daughters of Khaine, the morally questionable Seraphon, and tragically villainous Idoneth Deepkin loosely tied together with the mercantile Kharadron, the righteous and pragmatic Stormcast, and the urgold-lusting Fyreslayers.

Having those different shades of grey is a good thing for writing interesting stories and creating an interesting narrative.

I would rather not have the games factions be organized such that we have Death Elves, Destruction Elves, Order Elves, and Chaos Elves. That would be really boring.

[BaldoBeardo]

Not sure what your point is - you start by saying you think factions aren't a good fit for their current placement, then start suggesting tweaks to factions so they can be moved into other GA's?

Chaos worship / follow the pantheon - Khaine isn't one of them.

Order build civilisations. Not necessarily 'good' civilisations, but they build none the less.

Destruction conquer and consume, and have social hierarchies based purely in competition - bigger or smarter.

Death - I think FEC are a better fit there than Destruction because as you said, Ghouls will eat *anything*. They've got the mental capacity of a pigeon, even less self awareness, and would turn on living allies at any point. Even destruction aren't that bad and wouldn't side with that. Thus they're stuck with the dead, both for historical as well as practical reasons - you can't bite a ghost and if you do nibble a zombie then no-one cares.

 

 

[dmorley21]

4 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

Sylvaneth - aelves that want to maintain the cycle of life - Order

I really don't view Sylvaneth as an Aelf faction. I get they're led by an Aelf, but they're much more like Seraphon to me at this point.

 

Also, as a newcomer (sort of, played WHFB 6th-8th Edition), the alliances were hard for me to understand. In reality, they still are. I don't think certain alliances should have to play certain styles either though. That's limiting. I think alliances should be just that... groups that would ally with each other more often than not. I would propose these alliances:

Alliance of Sigmar: SCE, Seraphon, Sylvaneth, Fyreslayers, Kharadron Overlords, Dispossessed, Ironweld Arsenal, Swifthawk Agents, Phoenix Temple, Scourge Privateers, Order Draconis, Order Serpentis

Legions of Nagash: Deathlords, Deathrattle, Nighthaunt, Legion of Sacrament, Flesh-Eater Courts, Legion of Blood, Legion of Night, Soulblight

Chaos: Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, Everchosen, Darkoath, Legion of Azorgh, Chaos Herd (Beasts of Chaos)

Destruction: Ironjawz, Idoenth Deepkin, Daughters of Khaine, Moonclan Grots, Bonesplitterz, Spiderfang Grots, Beastclaw Raiders

Skaven: All of the Skaven clans.

 

I'd also add new factions of "death" to join the alliance of Sigmar. Vampire Courts, where orderly vampires watch over and protect their human subjects or a new version of something like Tomb Kings.

[Mr. White]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

Daughters won't join chaos, they loath chaos with a fanatical madness.  Morathi escaped Slaanesh's belly and most of the aelves are filled with souls ripped from his gut whilst he's trapped. Daughters are bloody and worship Khaine; they are really unreliable allies as likely to kill the enemy as their allies; but they loath and hate and will slaughter chaos with a brutal dance of death.

Right. But though they loathe chaos...they are Chaotic themselves are they not? I don't see a conflict with them fighting against , say, Slaanesh, while them still being Chaos due to their psychology.

Unless Chaos _only_ means worships one of the 5 chaos gods. If that's the case, it's a very restricting GA. Much more so than Order...which would be ironic if the two were like that. Chaos restrictive...Order freewheeling...

[Overread]

Old Dark Elves did dance the line between Chaos and non-Chaos - however the current Daughters are very much non-chaos forces. Indeed some of the Dark elf groups are not even that evilsh as such - for example the Shadowblades, whilst being made up from old DE models and allied into hte DE block, are basically Sigmars Inquisition force. 

Indeed the inter-alliances means that if you took Daughters out you'd have to take most of the rest of the Dark Elf block out in one big go. 

 

Also the chaos dark elves are with Morathi's son and are set to be one of the big Aelf releases of a new faction. They might or might not be Order (since he was allied with order) but could just as easily be destruction or even chaos. 

[dmorley21]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Order build civilisations. Not necessarily 'good' civilisations, but they build none the less.

How is Nagash not building a civilization?

Why aren't nomadic civilizations that Destruction forms considered civilizations?

This is what I see about what unifies Order, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I'd much rather see groups that would be more willing to ally with one another and have similar causes.

In my mind you have Chaos, which is an easy sort, though I would make Skaven their own alliance as they have never really fit the mold of Chaos to me.

Then you have those who serve Nagash. Once again, that's easy enough.

Sigmar/Order should be those who defend life. That's Sigmar's goal. That's Sylvaneth's goal. Seraphon oppose Chaos, so that's their goal.

Forces like Idoneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine  may hate Chaos and/or Nagash, but they do not defend life. They destroy it at various times for their own reasons. To me, that should be Destruction.

[Overread]

Chaos are those that worship Chaos Gods - the Great Horned One is such a creature even though he's not one of the 4 core gods. 

Destruction are those who are nomadic but also prone to being willfully destructive. They don't tend to build civilizations in the same way. It's why its fully of orks and goblins. They also broke the Alliance with Order and Sigmar after the initial Chaos wars. 

Death might well build settlements, but they are the undead; the, well, dead and non-living. They are also allied to Nagash who broke the Alliance with Sigmar. 

Order are those who remain allied to Sigmar even now and who are also generally seen as those races who build settlements and establish what we'd consider a sedentary civilization. 

 

Basically they are built around their relation to Sigmar. If you are with Sigmar you are in Order; if you are Chaos you are Chaos; if you are undead and not allied to sigmar you are Death and if you just want to "av a gut fight" then you're in Destruction.

They are casual alliance blocks as well. The Daughters of Khaine opposed Chaos and fight with Sigmar, but they very much have their own agendas and will turn on others. So the Alliance blocks are not even all allied with each other at all times. Heck  Idoneth Deepkin are active in stealing souls from other Order forces to feed their own race. 

[BaldoBeardo]

8 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

How is Nagash not building a civilization?

Why aren't nomadic civilizations that Destruction forms considered civilizations?

This is what I see about what unifies Order, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I'd much rather see groups that would be more willing to ally with one another and have similar causes.

In my mind you have Chaos, which is an easy sort, though I would make Skaven their own alliance as they have never really fit the mold of Chaos to me.

Then you have those who serve Nagash. Once again, that's easy enough.

Sigmar/Order should be those who defend life. That's Sigmar's goal. That's Sylvaneth's goal. Seraphon oppose Chaos, so that's their goal.

Forces like Idoneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine  may hate Chaos and/or Nagash, but they do not defend life. They destroy it at various times for their own reasons. To me, that should be Destruction.

Civilisation is more than just huts.

Nagash isn't building a civilisation. He's building an estate for himself. It's cute that various vampires and mortarchs have their own fiefdoms right now but that's solely because that's more use to Nagash at this point. Nagash's end game is a world of the dead who are purely vessels for his will. That's not even a fascist or dictatorial society because in those civilisations the serfs still go home to their families.

Destruction wake up, survive by any means necessary, go to bed, sleep, repeat. Anything that doesn't directly support that aim is absent. That's not a civilisation. The closest you get to civilisation in destruction is moonclan cultivating mushrooms and fungus.

 

[Aeryenn]

I think factions look far more interesting if you look at them without the Grand Alliance shade they are in. Daughters of Khaine - an army of bloodthirsty women that hate Chaos but would you really dare to ally with them? 

Idoneth Deepkin - weird fish folk that seem to aid Sigmar from time to time but what truly is their goal? 

Sounds better than "those good elves that aren't really good". 

[Mr. White]

2 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Civilisation is more than just huts.

Nagash isn't building a civilisation. He's building an estate for himself. It's cute that various vampires and mortarchs have their own fiefdoms right now but that's solely because that's more use to Nagash at this point. Nagash's end game is a world of the dead who are purely vessels for his will. That's not even a fascist or dictatorial society because in those civilisations the serfs still go home to their families.

Destruction wake up, survive by any means necessary, go to bed, sleep, repeat. Anything that doesn't directly support that aim is absent. That's not a civilisation. The closest you get to civilisation in destruction is moonclan cultivating mushrooms and fungus.

 

That description of Destruction seems to fit FEC to a tee.

Also, how does it explain the structure of the Ironjawz or Beastclaw? those seemt to be fairly well organized.

[BaldoBeardo]

6 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

That description of Destruction seems to fit FEC to a tee.

Also, how does it explain the structure of the Ironjawz or Beastclaw? those seemt to be fairly well organized.

No, because FEC aren't even really tribal. The only thing stopping them cannibalising themselves is being in thrall to the King. Which actually draws a greater parallel with Death, come to think of it.

Dog packs are organised, that doesn't make them civilised.

Ironjawz and Beastclaw Raiders are certainly advanced in some ways (manufacture), but they don't build. Everything is geared toward the next hunt, the next kill, the next conquest. Everyone fights, no-one quits.

[Clewz]

Where do humans/free people who worship Nagash fall in?

[ShadowSwordmaster]

In order for a faction to be part of Death, they need to be owned by Nagash or have a connection to him.

When it comes to the three aelf factions you listed:

Sylvaneth are tree people and not aelves.

DoK hates Chaos that even thinking they would be a part of that is crazy on its own.

The Deepkin fit into the categories that one would require for a faction to be in Order.  They are allied with Sigmar, they have a civilization, and they opposed Chaos and Death.  

[HollowHills]

Deepkin aren't evil nor do they generally have a desire to destroy. They take souls because otherwise their civilization would completely die out... or at least most do Fuethan you can argue are maybe a bit different. In fact if they didn't have to take souls they would probably stay at the bottom of the sea and never interact with any other race. The one thing that does unify them beyond their isolation is a hatred of chaos, in particular Slaanesh. By circumstance they are also joined against Nagash by virtue of Nagash actively attacking anyone he sees as a soul thief. As such really they only fit order, though I agree order is too large and they aren't easy bed fellows.

[Mr. White]

Per the WD issue during the Deepkin release, there were articles about the inspiration behind the Deepkin. It seems the design studio looked at the other 'aelf' factions of which there were two clearly listed...DoK and Sylvaneth.

[kenshin620]

17 minutes ago, Clewz said:

Where do humans/free people who worship Nagash fall in?

There are non dead people living in the Realm of Death. I think as long as you pledge your soul to Nagash (as opposed to chaos or sigmar) he'll be happy for you to work with him. And then you either eventually die and turn into a skeleton or gain magic powers and become a necromancer.

I mean heck even Oldhammer had living people work for death. I think the Ghouls were rumored to actually have been living cannibalistic cults that eventually turned undead. You had plenty of people in Sylvania that worked for the vampires (either willingly or unwilling. Vlad did want to become Emperor after all), and the Tomb Kings even governed some living cities.

 

Anyways this argument has been brought up plenty of times before during the release of DOK and ID. I do think there may be faction splintering but pointy ears joining chaos or destruction I think is a no go.

I do think though a Stormcast "Horus Heresy" may be inevitable though. Heck I keep wondering if Ulric will come back.

[BaldoBeardo]

6 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

Per the WD issue during the Deepkin release, there were articles about the inspiration behind the Deepkin. It seems the design studio looked at the other 'aelf' factions of which there were two clearly listed...DoK and Sylvaneth.

The original inspiration may have been - but the Sylvaneth aren't Aelves. They don't have the keyword, for a start.

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Civilisation is more than just huts.

Nagash isn't building a civilisation. He's building an estate for himself. It's cute that various vampires and mortarchs have their own fiefdoms right now but that's solely because that's more use to Nagash at this point. Nagash's end game is a world of the dead who are purely vessels for his will. That's not even a fascist or dictatorial society because in those civilisations the serfs still go home to their families.

Destruction wake up, survive by any means necessary, go to bed, sleep, repeat. Anything that doesn't directly support that aim is absent. That's not a civilisation. The closest you get to civilisation in destruction is moonclan cultivating mushrooms and fungus.

 

"Civilisation is more than just huts."

There's many definitions of civilization. The most common is the society of a certain group.

Most Destruction forces have a society. As does Nagash and Flesh-Eater Courts.

Also, that's a bit of a colonialist interpretation of the idea of civilization. While that may be our world's idea of what it means, I don't think that needs to hold true in worlds/realms of fantasy. Civilization can be very different than what it looks like for us. That's part of the fun of fantasy.

56 minutes ago, Clewz said:

Where do humans/free people who worship Nagash fall in? 

In my mind, I'd say they're part of Nagash's alliance. Which is a reason why I think the alliance should be "Legions of Nagash" and not just "Death."

51 minutes ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

In order for a faction to be part of Death, they need to be owned by Nagash or have a connection to him.

When it comes to the three aelf factions you listed:

Sylvaneth are tree people and not aelves.

DoK hates Chaos that even thinking they would be a part of that is crazy on its own.

The Deepkin fit into the categories that one would require for a faction to be in Order.  They are allied with Sigmar, they have a civilization, and they opposed Chaos and Death.  

The first point you bring up is why I think the grand alliance should just be "Legions of Nagash."

I also agree that while Sylvaneth have connections of Aelves, they are not currently an Aelf faction. In fact, one of their Wargroves makes Duardin part of their army, but there's nothing like that with Aelves specficially.

47 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Deepkin aren't evil nor do they generally have a desire to destroy. They take souls because otherwise their civilization would completely die out... or at least most do Fuethan you can argue are maybe a bit different. In fact if they didn't have to take souls they would probably stay at the bottom of the sea and never interact with any other race. The one thing that does unify them beyond their isolation is a hatred of chaos, in particular Slaanesh. By circumstance they are also joined against Nagash by virtue of Nagash actively attacking anyone he sees as a soul thief. As such really they only fit order, though I agree order is too large and they aren't easy bed fellows.

Do Destruction forces need to be evil? I never thought Orcs & Goblins (Orruks and Grots) were evil. They just lived life differently, in a way that was often in opposition with how "good" or "order" forces lived.

Deepkin are a truly tragic army, and if they didn't have to seek out souls, they would probably be true neutral unless there was some realm ending event, in which case they would ally with Sigmar. They're a truly fascinating and layered force, but I still think they could fit the concept of Destruction better than order and even add more layers to the concept of Destruction.

[amysrevenge]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

Daughters won't join chaos, they loath chaos with a fanatical madness. 

Each of the four/five Chaos sub groups hates the other with near fanatical madness already.  You think Khorne and Tzeentch get along?

[BaldoBeardo]

34 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

There's many definitions of civilization. The most common is the society of a certain group.

But they all still refer to a high relative state of development.

For example, "Mongol Civilisation" is effectively a Googlewhack if you discount appearances in the civilisation games... Then try in comparison to Greek, Roman, Mayan, etc.

[BaldoBeardo]

5 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Each of the four/five Chaos sub groups hates the other with near fanatical madness already.  You think Khorne and Tzeentch get along?

I can show you a GT winning list that says yes... ?

[Mr. White]

7 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Each of the four/five Chaos sub groups hates the other with near fanatical madness already.  You think Khorne and Tzeentch get along?

True.

Aren't Tzeentch and Nurgle rivals? Khorne v Slaanesh?

[Overread]

8 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Each of the four/five Chaos sub groups hates the other with near fanatical madness already.  You think Khorne and Tzeentch get along?

Yes but the Chaos gods are also the same type of creature, come from the same world and whilst they rival each other they will work together at times toward similar end goals. They basically hate each other because they compete with each other for food and power and souls of the living. 

Daughters have no interest in those things; sure they worship Khaine and use blood magics and hearts and shadow spells (and I really hope we see them get some shadow beasts!); but they are a totally different thing.