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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Dispossessed Discussion

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9 hours ago, Syrex said:

Nice summary Arkhanist!
It's really going to come down to point costs.
If there aren't any/many changes, it's all a bit disappointing. Odd that the Ironbreaker warscroll just doesn't mention shields whatsoever.

Yeah, Ironbreakers feel weird. Considering Longbeards get +1 save against melee putting them at a 3+ save against most attacks, get their grumblings, and are 20 points cheaper according to new posted points I'm not seeing any reason to ever take Ironbreakers. I wonder if a shield rule got left off Ironbreakers by mistake. I'd take them if they got a 2+ save in melee.

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With all the extra rules we get the new command ability of the warden king is a lot better. With all the units and allegiance abilities its really easy to get irondrakes to a 2+ 2+ -how much rend you want    damage depending on the weapon. For me ill trade the rerolls of the shieldwall for more mobility and unit variety every day. Longbeards got a increase because their grumbling is way better now the rerolls now also work for shooting, so you will get like 90% of all irondrake shots through. The luminark and hurricanum are also really insane and cheap now so you can get a 3+ 6++ 6++ on you duardin line.

Id recommend everyone to try the new rules out and use your models as thematic "conversions".

Well if some of you still want to part with their duardin Im happy to take some of them in. Only if you live in europe though, since overseas shipping can be quite expensive.

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Correct me if im wrong but with the new battletome we lost the thunderers, the crossbows and both cannons?  The only way to play my crossbows and thunderers are as a proxy for freeguild?

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4 minutes ago, pikachoux said:

Correct me if im wrong but with the new battletome we lost the thunderers, the crossbows and both cannons?  The only way to play my crossbows and thunderers are as a proxy for freeguild?

depending on your models and you willingnes for proxies they can be other units aswell. I got dwarf rangers from avatars of war as quarrelers, since I dont really like the crowsbowmen that much I will use them as shadow warriors. 

Thunderers best fit the handgunners and thats what Ill use them for or maybe as grundstock thunderers in tempest eye.

There are also darkshards and sisters of the watch for quarrelers.

As for cannons, the organ gun is a easy alternative for the volley gun. Id use the normal one as a rocket battery and just put any rocket head I can find inside the barrel. If you got multiples of the skullpass one there is alot more you can do with that since its smaller and you can combine multiples for either.

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Sounds like I’m more positive about the changes than most people. Here are my opinions on what is better/worse:

Better:

-Shields: you can debate whether you would rather have the reroll, but the fact that you get the +1 all the time now is great. Also means we have it on turn 1 if someone alpha strikes us.

-Musicians: Avg run roll is 4.5 now, and you get the charge bonus. If you have some way to teleport a unit and have a command point reroll, you have a 66% chance to make the charge, and tempest eye dwarfs can go 9+d6” on turn 1 if they run!

-Warden King oathstone ability is so much better.

- Hammerers got a real nice buff. 

-Endless spell defense 

Neutral:

-Warden King grudge ability: +1 attack is better than +1 to wound, but now only for combat

-Longbeard grumbling- I quite liked battleshock protection.

-Irondrake shooting

Worse:

-Ironbreakers & Irondrakes trade the ignore tend for +1 save vs shooting.

- Longbeards lose the option to take GW & shield.

- Standards

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7 hours ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

I can’t see the new hammerer warscroll.  Every time I clink the rules link on their entry on the site, it just opens up the exact same page.

Yeah, the website link is incorrect and just points to the unit page. You have to follow the same pattern of other URLs for warscrolls and substitute hammerers to get their warscroll i.e.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos_hammerers_eng.pdf

Screenshot_2019-09-29 aos_hammerers_eng pdf.png

Edited by Arkhanist
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7 hours ago, Forrix said:

Yeah, Ironbreakers feel weird. Considering Longbeards get +1 save against melee putting them at a 3+ save against most attacks, get their grumblings, and are 20 points cheaper according to new posted points I'm not seeing any reason to ever take Ironbreakers. I wonder if a shield rule got left off Ironbreakers by mistake. I'd take them if they got a 2+ save in melee.

Ironbreakers get 2A in melee, longbeards only get 1 with either weapon.

Longbeards with Great Axe are basically less dangerous hammerers (who also get 2A and extra mortal wounds), longbeards with axe+shield are weaker ironbreakers (with their 2A, 3+ save all the time). Longbeards are cheaper, give grumblings buffs, and will be battleline all the time along with ironbreakers. So it makes some sense from an internal balance perspective, it's when you start comparing to other units in the book (or indeed, what they were) that you start wondering whether you'd be better off with other things.

I think the plan we're expected to use is that without the re-roll saves 'trap' and the new +1 advance/charge musicians we push big units of hammerers/ironbreakers up the field more aggressively (depending upon if you want tougher or harder hitting) with small units of longbeards to support and provide grumbling buffs, along with runepriests to buff defence in 1st turn, then switch to rend prayer and king +1A ability to buff damage. Improved, cheaper gyros for initial strikes and flank harrassing. Runepriests and longbeards to help get rid of endless spells. Obvious synergy with tempest's eye, with improved move and save turn 1. Irondrakes are a bit stuffed; with only a 16" range they want to move up, but need to stand still to get their 2A.

Steam tanks look like they might be a good fit for the 'grinding advance' style we're being pushed into, and the option of 1 in 4 units being stormcast - maybe their ballistas? Don't know stormcast very well.

The old 'sit back and shoot them to pieces because we're hard as nails' style is definitely dead with the loss of canons, organ guns, quarrelers and thunderers and the loss of re-roll saves. Ironweld + greywater fastness + freeguild bubblewrap I think is the new gunline army.

As an aside, I won't be using my old units as 'counts as' other races; aside from the difference in statlines, the keywords not overlapping (such as not getting longbeard buffs etc because they're not actually dispossessed units) would just be a risk for confusing my opponent too much for my taste, unless I somehow find a regular gaming group.

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4 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

The old 'sit back and shoot them to pieces because we're hard as nails' style is definitely dead with the loss of canons, organ guns, quarrelers and thunderers and the loss of re-roll saves. Ironweld + greywater fastness + freeguild bubblewrap I think is the new gunline army.

Cannons are not all lost though! The Blacksmoke Battery lets us take them still, and with our new Gyrocopters thats even better!

 

One question ive been wondering, is if you can take 2 runelords and do the extra rend prayer twice. Having 2 units of 20 Irondrakes, running up the board and then shooting with -2 rend guns is bloody brilliant in my mind if its possible!

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4 minutes ago, Broken Netcode said:

Cannons are not all lost though! The Blacksmoke Battery lets us take them still, and with our new Gyrocopters thats even better!

 

One question ive been wondering, is if you can take 2 runelords and do the extra rend prayer twice. Having 2 units of 20 Irondrakes, running up the board and then shooting with -2 rend guns is bloody brilliant in my mind if its possible!

That's true; though Blacksmoke Battery has the old rules for crew with separate profiles though, so can get shot to pieces quite easily, and won't benefit from the city allegience rules IIRC as mercenaries. And of course you can take the new warscrolls (as latest published) in an entire dispossessed army using the GHB rules along with all the old units still, so they're not totally dead for at least another year. But I think CoS has too many buffs overall to ignore. That said, I'm unconvinced of the wisdom of buying new old 'pre AoS' ironweld/freeguild/elf units etc to replace ones that just got squatted, but that may be just me...

With regards multiple rend, there's nothing in the new warscroll that prevents multiple runesmith prayers applying at once, nor the main rules IIRC, and the general consensus was that the rend prayer stacked before the new wording, so no reason I can see why they won't now. Hammerers with longbeard, runesmith and king buffs will be downright nasty (the longbeard re-roll of 1s to wound will also generate extra MW on hammerers if you roll 6s!)

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7 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

That's true; though Blacksmoke Battery has the old rules for crew with separate profiles though, so can get shot to pieces quite easily, and won't benefit from the city allegience rules IIRC as mercenaries. And of course you can take the new warscrolls (as latest published) in an entire dispossessed army using the GHB rules along with all the old units still, so they're not totally dead for at least another year. But I think CoS has too many buffs overall to ignore. That said, I'm unconvinced of the wisdom of buying new old 'pre AoS' ironweld/freeguild/elf units etc to replace ones that just got squatted, but that may be just me...

With regards multiple rend, there's nothing in the new warscroll that prevents multiple runesmith prayers applying at once, nor the main rules IIRC, and the general consensus was that the rend prayer stacked before the new wording, so no reason I can see why they won't now. Hammerers with longbeard, runesmith and king buffs will be downright nasty (the longbeard re-roll of 1s to wound will also generate extra MW on hammerers if you roll 6s!)

Thats excellent! Im absolutely doing an army with 2 units of 20 Irondrakes with a runelord following both then! 20/40 shots if static hitting on 2's, with -2 rend will put out a lot of pain a turn. And being able to run and shoot makes an amazing 24.5" threat bubble.

Just need to work out whats going with gotrek at this point, and its looking like its gonna be hammerers with the fact im taking 2 runelords!

I think my list is going to look something like this: 
 

Allegiance: Greywater Fastness
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Runelord (90)
- General
- Trait: Ghyran Mere Ranger
- Artefact: Betty's Magnificent Magnifier
Runelord (90)
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Hammerers (280) - Battleline if Dispossessed General
20 x Irondrakes (300) - Battleline if Duardin General
20 x Irondrakes (300) - Battleline if Duardin General

War Machines
3 x Gyrocopters (180)
- Gun: Steam Gun
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 104

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I'm confused. Did everyone miss that the save on the ironbreakers and irondrakes has gone from 4+ to 3+ ? A flat 3+ save is much better than 4+ ignoring -1 rend. Isn't it???

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1 hour ago, Chikout said:

I'm confused. Did everyone miss that the save on the ironbreakers and irondrakes has gone from 4+ to 3+ ? A flat 3+ save is much better than 4+ ignoring -1 rend. Isn't it???

Irondrakes are still 4+ (Ironbreakers are 3+).
The reason people aren't happy is that not only did Ironbreakers lose the ignore -1 rend (Gaining 3+ which is clearly better), they completely lost their shield ability.

Dispossessed wasn't exactly running around winning Tournaments, so where buffs were needed, sidegrades/nerfs were given.
Comparing the Dispossessed units to others available in the cities is not exactly a favourable experience. Hammerers are an exception, they're pretty decent.
 

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6 hours ago, Chikout said:

I'm confused. Did everyone miss that the save on the ironbreakers and irondrakes has gone from 4+ to 3+ ? A flat 3+ save is much better than 4+ ignoring -1 rend. Isn't it???

I'm going to do the maths for ironbreakers, as this seems to be neverending.

(edit: added more units)

 

chance of save against:

  Rend 0 

 Rend -1 

 Rend -2 

  Rend -3   

old 4+ (hammerers, running longbeards)

 50% 33.33% 16.67% 0%

old 4+ with shield re-roll  (longbeards)

75% 55.56% 30.56%  0%

old 4+, ignoring -1 rend (running ironbreakers, irondrakes)

50%

50%

16.67%

0%

old 4+, ignoring -1 rend with shield re-roll (ironbreakers that didn't run)

75%

75%

30.56% 

0%

         

new 3+ (ironbreakers, irondrakes against missiles, shield longbeards against melee)

66.67% 

50%

33.33%

16.67%

new 4+ (hammerers, irondrakes against melee, longbeards w/o shields or missile attacks)

 50% 33.33% 16.67%  0%

 

 

So. The new ironbreaker 3+ is only better than the old against rend -2 up, and rend 0 when you run. This also ignores the loss of the 5+ against spells.

Irondrakes are better off against missile attacks, worse against -1 rend melee attacks and no 5+ spell save.

Hammerers are unchanged (no surprise!)

Longbeards are worse off in most circumstances from losing the re-roll and shields entirely with 2H axes, though shield longbeards now get a 6+ save against -3 rend melee attacks they didn't before...

Edited by Arkhanist
expanded to more units
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I just read the rules for the endless spell boat and irondrakes. They can only blaze away if they did not "make a move" so are they still able to double tap via teleports?

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Reposting from the Kharadrons thread- a list I’ve been thinking about this morning.

 

I like the idea of using tempest’s eye to make a true combined duardin list- something like (if I’ve got the new points right):

warden king (general)

Runelord

Runelord

battle line:

30 ironbreakers

30 hammerers

10  longbeards 

others:

10 grundstock thunderers

kharadron frigate

3 gyrocopters

allies:

grimwrath berserker

10 hearthguard berserkers 

 

How well that would synergise with the tempest eye’s rule’s I don’t know- I may well be better splitting the dispossessed into smaller units,  but I like the idea of having a combination of fast objective grabbers (gyrocopters and the Kharadrons), heavy hitters to grind up the field (berserkers and the hammerers) and a meaty block of ironbreakers in Defense (ok they’ve been inexplicably nerfed, but 30 models with a 3+ save/ 6+ invun, and battleshock immunity if I hang the king back, is still tough to shift. 

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I'm not telling how to run things, of course, but if you are looking for conversion food to be big stuff, maybe the Castellan Robots from AdMech would fith the aesthetic?

The look a bit dwarfy (a bit like gyrocopter in roundness vs greebliness), and with a few copter blades could make for an adequate General on Griffin standin.

In the lore, this could easily be mining machinery adapted for war.

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2 hours ago, Azamar said:

Reposting from the Kharadrons thread- a list I’ve been thinking about this morning.

 

I like the idea of using tempest’s eye to make a true combined duardin list- something like (if I’ve got the new points right):

warden king (general)

Runelord

Runelord

battle line:

30 ironbreakers

30 hammerers

10  longbeards 

others:

10 grundstock thunderers

kharadron frigate

3 gyrocopters

allies:

grimwrath berserker

10 hearthguard berserkers 

 

How well that would synergise with the tempest eye’s rule’s I don’t know- I may well be better splitting the dispossessed into smaller units,  but I like the idea of having a combination of fast objective grabbers (gyrocopters and the Kharadrons), heavy hitters to grind up the field (berserkers and the hammerers) and a meaty block of ironbreakers in Defense (ok they’ve been inexplicably nerfed, but 30 models with a 3+ save/ 6+ invun, and battleshock immunity if I hang the king back, is still tough to shift. 

Grimwrath is awesome... but i’d personally go for the runesmiter first. The frigate as a transport is deceptively slow. So I would (and successfully experimented with) deepstriking the bezerkers forward the most and getting the thunderers behind them. Now your opponent needs to do something  or accept getting shot. 

But in the end we’ll only know when we try the new rules right :) 

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I’m trying to stay positive about the changes.  They just might work out.  But is anyone else a little saddened by the discontinuation of the Duardin artillery?

Here’s the thing; there are several aelf factions (Phoenix Guard, Wanderers, Shadowblades etc) and several human factions (freeguild, colligate arcane, devoted of Sigmar etc.) but only one duardin faction, the dispossessed.  Wouldn’t it have been nice if the Ironweld Arsenal was primarily another Duardin faction?  The Cogsmith as the character, then the two artillery weapons and fliers as its units, and then they could have the steam tank and human artillery weapons too... or not.  Either way, I just think that it was premature to ditch them.  They were still serviceable, and it could hardly be worrying about duplicating units right?  Because Greatswords, Executioners and Hammerers are pretty similar when you think about it.

I just think they made a mistake here. 😞

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I think at the moment we are only seeing a fraction of the possibilities offered by the cities of sigmar book.  Whilst the discontinuation of the models is definitely sad, I do love the wealth of opportunities this book offers for dispossessed fans. The opportunity to convert hurricanum/ luminark of hysh by using old anvil of doom models for example to give us even more protection and to hit buffs really excites me in conjunction with rune lords. Furthermore, the possibility of using aethwings (lots of) , iron drakes and gortrek makes me extremely happy.   I'm also sure there will be specific battle traits for dispossessed general as well as artefacts of power that will further enhance us ....and just remember if you're feeling down...gortrek is back and better than ever...and we finally have a book!

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15 minutes ago, Matt Sandi said:

I think at the moment we are only seeing a fraction of the possibilities offered by the cities of sigmar book.  Whilst the discontinuation of the models is definitely sad, I do love the wealth of opportunities this book offers for dispossessed fans. The opportunity to convert hurricanum/ luminark of hysh by using old anvil of doom models for example to give us even more protection and to hit buffs really excites me in conjunction with rune lords. Furthermore, the possibility of using aethwings (lots of) , iron drakes and gortrek makes me extremely happy.   I'm also sure there will be specific battle traits for dispossessed general as well as artefacts of power that will further enhance us ....and just remember if you're feeling down...gortrek is back and better than ever...and we finally have a book!

If I understood Luka from miniwargaming, then there will even be a prayer for the runelord in the city of greywater for your artillery pieces.

So yeah, I’ll be happy getting the book for my self as well, after having heard a few previews.

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1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

I’m trying to stay positive about the changes.  They just might work out.  But is anyone else a little saddened by the discontinuation of the Duardin artillery?

Here’s the thing; there are several aelf factions (Phoenix Guard, Wanderers, Shadowblades etc) and several human factions (freeguild, colligate arcane, devoted of Sigmar etc.) but only one duardin faction, the dispossessed.  Wouldn’t it have been nice if the Ironweld Arsenal was primarily another Duardin faction?  The Cogsmith as the character, then the two artillery weapons and fliers as its units, and then they could have the steam tank and human artillery weapons too... or not.  Either way, I just think that it was premature to ditch them.  They were still serviceable, and it could hardly be worrying about duplicating units right?  Because Greatswords, Executioners and Hammerers are pretty similar when you think about it.

I just think they made a mistake here. 😞

They're getting rid of everything in waves that's somewhat generic fantasy models, especially older kits. I won't be at all surprised to see a big chunk of the current freeguild, dark elf and high elf units go in the next purge. The only surviving dispossessed kits are from what, 2014? So anything much older than that in CoS that you can buy alternatives for from mantic, reaper etc I wouldn't expect to survive in the long term. So the big monsters, oddball warmachines and things like demigryph cavalry are probably fairly safe for now, but I wouldn't get too attached to stuff like greatswords or shadow warriors.

The ultimate future of dwarves for GW is Kharadron and Fyreslayers, copyrightable unique/weird stuff, just as dark elves future is Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth, humans are sigmarines, wood elves as slyvaneth and high elves well, whatever they end up doing for them, probably some Azyr magic users range.

They will probably do a 2nd 'normal' human (mostly) cities of sigmar army to replace freeguild, but expect it to be pretty weird.

Edited by Arkhanist

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