AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[PJetski]

57 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

I'm pretty certain you can, you just need to take unit's that already have the Hammers keyword while using the Anvils stormhost (as all units will gain Anvils but not lose Hammers). I'm not saying it's anything near optimal, but it can be done. You can drop in Gavriel, Vandus, and Steelhearts for example, buff em up and go for a rather bizarre alpha-strike. 

There was a list many pages back that theorycrafted Tempest Lords with Gavriel and all the native Hammers units to try and generate as many CPs to burn through as possible. Looked like fun, but probably not terribly effective. 

Alright you technically can but it's pointless. Units with HAMMERS OF SIGMAR can't gain another stormhost keyword, and you can't use the Anvils command ability on anything but ANVILS units, so there is no reason to mix stormhosts like that.

 

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, Darkrich said:

I was under the impression that you cannot combine stormhosts. Gavriel is Hammers and can only affect other Hammers units. If you take Gavriel in a Anvils list, he can use his command ability but only other Hammers keyword models will use it (pretty much himself). The dropping evocators are anvils and cannot benefit from it.

You're right! I misspoke when I said that all units would gain Anvils - only the units without an existing stormhost (Hammers in this case) would be eligible to gain Anvils. 

[ledha]

The only characters that can be take and stay efficient whatever their stormhost is are the Celestant Prime (who can be affected by everything), Neave (who doesn't have any interaction) as well as Aventis Firestrike, who can affect himself with his own command ability if needed, and his more a big and lone missile that try to go in melee while the lord arcanum on tauralon is here to support the army

 

by the way, some people insist to tell me that the celestant prime have his +2 attacks only once. Am i the one not reading his rules right ? Divine retribution is used in each movement phase, and as i read it, it grant +2 attacks to the end of the battle each time you don't make the celestant prime deepstrike

Edited September 21, 2018 by ledha

[Roark]

13 hours ago, XReN said:

Everything apart torpeding them with heraldor is a giant point dump (and Gav is not viable for Anvils) so You only get 11"+charge (spending CP 5/6 times for run rolls) to stay point effective, though it is not by any means bad, that's still a lot of points to take a unit from safety into combat and you still have to wait until next hero phase to throw additional activastion on.

Giant point dump? I'm taking Evocators anyway because they kick ******. I'm taking a Relictor anyway because he has useful abilities. I'm taking Cogs because it's flexible and useful to my whole army. And of course I want the Evocators in combat - that's what they do (???)

13 hours ago, PJetski said:

Deep strike charge (9" = 28%) is not reliable. Translocation (66%) and Cogs (58%) are not reliable tools.

None of them let you get melee range during the hero phase (which is when you activate Anvils CA) so you need to survive that melee phase and then hope for a double turn... it's just a terrible strategy. Anvils should be used on shooting units to (almost) guarantee value.

Yes, the Anvils ability activates in my Hero phase... I do plan to have units from my army in combat during my Hero phase throughout the game irrespective of double turns and regardless of whether Cogs is or isn't cast successfully in Turn 1. And when they *are* in combat, I'll have two units of arguably the best entry in the Stormcast roster attacking in two phases and delivering a crazy amount of mortal wounds.

 When you said "terrible strategy", you seemed to assume that my unit of 10 Evocators (30 wounds, at 3+ with a Lantern) won't even survive first contact to make use of the command. That seems bizarrely pessimistic and doesn't reflect my experience of using them at all.

As for "reliable tools" well, it's a game with random elements. You seem to be arguing wholesale against the use of any prayers whatsoever (none are better than 3+ after all) or any attempted usage of Cogs without bonuses to cast. That's strange to me as well...

Hope I don't seem too cheeky or argumentative, but I couldn't disagree more. I don't think it's questionable or controversial at all to give one of the best melee units in the game the opportunity to attack twice in a turn. I mean, the Evocators *will* end up in combat, and the Anvils command is much better than SCE warscroll commands.

My list has Aetherquartz Brooch and a Cleansing Phalanx (10 and 5 Evos). Let's say I only manage to activate the command 4 times during the game, with depleted Evocator unit sizes of 8, 6, 4 and 2. That's 20 mortal wounds *just* from the extra Celestial Lightning Arcs...

I guess I'm just not seeing the terribleness of it.

[Mark Williams]

7 hours ago, ledha said:

The only characters that can be take and stay efficient whatever their stormhost is are the Celestant Prime (who can be affected by everything), Neave (who doesn't have any interaction) as well as Aventis Firestrike, who can affect himself with his own command ability if needed, and his more a big and lone missile that try to go in melee while the lord arcanum on tauralon is here to support the army

 

by the way, some people insist to tell me that the celestant prime have his +2 attacks only once. Am i the one not reading his rules right ? Divine retribution is used in each movement phase, and as i read it, it grant +2 attacks to the end of the battle each time you don't make the celestant prime deepstrike

Vandus Hammerhand is pretty independent too.

I’ve had the same argument about the prime. As near as I can tell, there was some rumor started on a forum, video, or podcast somewhere during the intitial round of battletome reviews, and it circulated as truth. I only see argued amongst “more informed” players, who read Internet forums. Have zero issues with people who just read the rule in the book and use common sense. There’s some kind of weird, bad “whisper game” going on with this and I’ll be glad when it goes away. I don’t even see a case to be made for it, unless I take my glasses off and drink a few beers first. It’s rules lawyering mixed with a bit of, “I heard someone say it works this way, and I trust them because it helps my army so it must be true.”

Edited September 22, 2018 by Mark Williams

[Black Blade]

While we are on the topic of the Prime, I noticed in the card game that they put out he's listed as a warrior wizard. I wonder if he will be updated in a year in the next battletome to being a wizard. I think it might make him actually be taken by Stormcast players even if he is a squishy 300+ unit. 

[Black Blade]

Trying something unorthodox this weekend. What do you guys think? Is it too bare bones? Would I be better off taking the Celestial Vindicators Stormhost than the general abilities?

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (240)
- General
- Trait: Shielded by Faith 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
- Spell: Thundershock
- Mount Trait: Keen-clawed
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Divine Light

Battleline
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Tempest Blades and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows

Units
2 x Fulminators (240)

Total: 980 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 52
 

[Freejack02]

7 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

While we are on the topic of the Prime, I noticed in the card game that they put out he's listed as a warrior wizard. I wonder if he will be updated in a year in the next battletome to being a wizard. I think it might make him actually be taken by Stormcast players even if he is a squishy 300+ unit. 

Being a Wizard would be nice, but I wouldn't mind if he only got dispels. Make him a little more survivable after he arrives and deletes whatever unit was looking at him funny. 

[schwabbele]

8 hours ago, ledha said:

 

by the way, some people insist to tell me that the celestant prime have his +2 attacks only once. Am i the one not reading his rules right ? Divine retribution is used in each movement phase, and as i read it, it grant +2 attacks to the end of the battle each time you don't make the celestant prime deepstrike

You are right, +2 each time you keep him in heaven. 

[XReN]

3 hours ago, Roark said:

Giant point dump? I'm taking Evocators anyway because they kick ******. I'm taking a Relictor anyway because he has useful abilities. I'm taking Cogs because it's flexible and useful to my whole army. And of course I want the Evocators in combat - that's what they do (???)

 

If it worked for you then fine, we all have serieses of great rolls, but I'm sticking to footsloging or Gav drop, because relible.
 

[kenshin620]

Ouch! The new shadespire warband is a whopping 300pts for matched play comprised of 1 unique Knight Incantor and 2 unique Evocators.

That doesn't sound too good because the Evocator team still has the "only a wizard at 2 models" rule so someone can quickly shut down the usefulness of the duo team. Granted they have 5 attacks each and can reroll to hit rolls of 1 against all chaos and death, but it's still only 2 models with 3 wounds each.

The unique spell sounds a tad interesting, but a normal knight incantor + normal evocators costs only 40pts more with the added bonus of a full unit of evocators.

 

Oh and of course, they are a Hammers of Sigmar unit. Because thats the only stormhost GW likes!

Edited September 22, 2018 by kenshin620

[kenshin620]

5 minutes ago, xking said:

 

Also how would you improve the warscrolls for these old non-used heroes? (Knights Azyros, Knights Venator, Lord Veritant etc)

I thought people like the Knight Azyros? Especially in a mixed Order army.

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, xking said:

Also how would you improve the warscrolls for these old non-used heroes? (Knights Azyros, Knights Venator, Lord Veritant etc)

Azyros gets some play with gunline lists, same with Venator. Maybe not top tier, but they at least they see the table... where the Veritant is on a whole other level of bad. They need a reliable dispel buff that doesn't rely on their gryph being near the enemy wizard (perhaps just near the LV would be more appropriate) and either some sort of movement/ability buff and they could probably be worked into lists (where they compete with the auto-dispel of the Incantor). 

[ledha]

7 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Azyros gets some play with gunline lists, same with Venator. Maybe not top tier, but they at least they see the table... where the Veritant is on a whole other level of bad. They need a reliable dispel buff that doesn't rely on their gryph being near the enemy wizard (perhaps just near the LV would be more appropriate) and either some sort of movement/ability buff and they could probably be worked into lists (where they compete with the auto-dispel of the Incantor). 

just a reminder, azyros give reroll to hit to EVERYONE now, range AND melee.

For a army that hit on 3+ on average, rerolling 1 is not very far from rerolling everything. For me, the Azyros has a place in all Order list. And since his ability work on everyone (units, monsters, character), it's a guy that synergize with EVERY list against EVERY opponent. You don't need a CP, or to cast a spell or an ability, you just have to be near your opponent, and since it's a debuff, it even work in 2v2 game, and mean he will buff several units at once (everyone attacking any units 10" of him).

Ad for the veritant, the guy still bring with him a prayer (divine light is awesome) and a free gryph hound which is excellent. It's clearly not a the top competitive option, but i used him several time in 1000 pts and he always did an excellent work, because the guy can mess up with ennemy casters while they can't do anything against him. And 6 wound + the best melee profile among stormcast heroes on foot and the gryph hound were very useful. He is far from bad, just in competition with one of the best spellcasters of the game.

Edited September 22, 2018 by ledha

[Bellfree]

16 hours ago, XReN said:

If it worked for you then fine, we all have serieses of great rolls, but I'm sticking to footsloging or Gav drop, because relible.
 

At the cost of burning 100pts for a character that is utterly worthless outside of the drops and a really, really subpar Stormhost. Gavriel may be more reliable than cogs/etc but in taking him you're committing to winning with the drop on the simple basis that you've invested 100pts, your heavy hitter unit(s), your stormhost, a CP, and your relic slot in guaranteeing one drop. You're also almost always forced to drop everything at once(if you don't bubblewrap Gavriel, he dies 100%. If you do bubble wrap Gavriel, no way are you going to get more units wholly within 12 AND in a decent position to charge.) and in the same general area. You're pigeonholing yourself into not only an INCREDIBLY predictable strategy but in a very one note build that people and armies will eventually figure out how to deal with the same way they figured out hammerstrike.

What using Cogs or w/e instead does is it trades a bit of reliability for flexibility and it also means that the army can be stronger outside of the one note 'BLAM FROM THE SKY, HOPE I WIN THIS TURN' strategy that gavriel lists tend to devolve into. Not being trapped using a largely useless stormhost(the one unit of sequitors that comes back every 3rd game on turn 4 or 5 isn't anything to write home about and the rest of the abilities are almost completely irrelevant even compared to the generic non-stormhosts ones.) is a massive benefit.

Yes, gavriel is far and away the most reliable way to get Sacrosanct units into combat turn 1, but let's not pretend that there aren't some pretty severe opportunity cost associated with packing a weak model into a weak stormhost for the sake of telegraphing exactly what your gameplan is to every person who gives your list even a casual once-over.

[Apologetic Canadian]

Hello,

I've been building SCE up over a small amount of time and I'm trying to figure out how to branch out. I run Astral Templars (I love their colours for some odd reason) in a heavy Sacrosanct style. My group is not tournament-meta level, but we still like to give one another a good fight when possible. I've currently been running something along the lines of...
 

Quote

 

Knight-Incantor

Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-charger

Lord-Castellant

Evocators: 5 Evocators, 5x Grandstave

Evocators: 5 Evocators, 5x Grandstave

Sequitors: 5 Sequitors

Sequitors: 2x 5 Sequitors, 4x Stormsmite Greatmace

Sequitors: 2x 5 Sequitors, 4x Stormsmite Greatmace, Tempest Blade and Soulshield

Game Type: 1500 Point

 

I'm wishing to branch out and even replace things if necessary to hit a strong 2,000pt army list. As it stands, I've noticed that movement is troublesome to the point of me having to survive the charge before I get chance to dish out the hurt, but everything seems to have strong staying power and the Evocators buffing up Sequitors. Any suggestions? Maybe adding in another hero or two for aura support, or increasing squad sizes/removing certain squads?

As a follow-up, what are folks doing for additional Stormsmite Greatmaces in their squads? They're a touch rough to come by and I actually grabbed a few "Easy to Build Sequitors" to get cheaper Greatmaces.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Tiger]

19 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Ouch! The new shadespire warband is a whopping 300pts for matched play comprised of 1 unique Knight Incantor and 2 unique Evocators.

That doesn't sound too good because the Evocator team still has the "only a wizard at 2 models" rule so someone can quickly shut down the usefulness of the duo team. Granted they have 5 attacks each and can reroll to hit rolls of 1 against all chaos and death, but it's still only 2 models with 3 wounds each.

The unique spell sounds a tad interesting, but a normal knight incantor + normal evocators costs only 40pts more with the added bonus of a full unit of evocators.

Oh and of course, they are a Hammers of Sigmar unit. Because thats the only stormhost GW likes!

7

I haven't been impressed by them either. I understand that GW doesn't want to create units that have crazy potential in AoS, however, they seem underwhelming for those point costs. I'll be picking up a kit of them, simply to go with the Easy to build Evocators that came with the starter set.

It would be really neat to get a character that isn't from Hammers of Sigmar. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Tiger

[ledha]

it's basically an upgraded knight incantor (let's say 140 pts because he is a character so no item at all) and 2 buffed evocator prime with a slight bonus vs undead/chaos for 80 pts each.

[Thenord]

So, I finally finished painting my last tempestos model and my (All most) pure 2k Extremis chamber list is now ready for an upcomming 6 game league in my club. But I can't decide om wich stormhost to use and what my second artefact should be. And would like to hear what you guys think. 

The Lost will be like this 

Drakesworn templar 

Relictor

2x5 liberators 

5 judicators

2x2 tempestos

2x2 fullminators

Lightning echelon

1970. 

The units and formation is fixed, they are the ones I want to play with.

Only question is which stormhost and what extra item would you go for? 

Cheers!

[kenshin620]

4 hours ago, ledha said:

it's basically an upgraded knight incantor (let's say 140 pts because he is a character so no item at all) and 2 buffed evocator prime with a slight bonus vs undead/chaos for 80 pts each.

Which is pretty crazy given how Evocators are 5 for 200, so 40pts each. Theres no way one one extra attack and reroll hits against 2 GA is worth 40 extra points.

And even if you go "well maybe the Incantor is worth more" to lower the points allocation of the evocators, it still looks terrible. If the Evocators are worth 60pts each, then the incantor man is 180pts.... No matter how its sliced, this warband seems like "buff you model variety" territory, especially since plenty of people have 3 ez build evocators.

(Unless this particular rule writer is making a subliminal message that Knight Incantors/Evocators are under priced)

 

Meanwhile the Nighthaunt Warband is far more reasonable, in fact their wizard technically is their cheapest native wizard! And not to mention the Leader is actually a very unique hero, shes not a carbon copy of an existing unit.

[Kaleydoscope]

Hey guys, just a crazy idea which came to my mind recently. (see attachement) 

With this list you start with 9CP and the Azyros as Scion, on each of your heroe phases you can generate up to 2 CPs on a dice roll of 4+ each. Every time you spend a command point, you can roll 2 dice and for each 5+ you generate a new CP. Of course they can be spent then and possibly generate new CPs.. Castellant and Heraldor buff Vandus to get him into combat (Vexillor and Charge reroll might help too). The phoenix guard and liberators march towards mission markers. If you get vandus in combat with multiple units, you can destroy them all by deviding your weapon attacks, each buffed through CP Shenanigans. (getting +10 on each of his weapons should be no problem, if you are lucky, you might generate more CP than you want to use) This is not a tournament concept but if you test it anyway or play it in a beer and pretzle environment - please tell me how it went ;). ©️Kaleydoscope 2018

[Freejack02]

Writing your entire list around a 7 wound hero (that starts on the field?) seems like a reciple for a quick loss. Interesting idea, I just don't see it being very effective - I think Vandus needs a squad to drop in with him and gain the benefits of his CA.

[Kaleydoscope]

2 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Writing your entire list around a 7 wound hero (that starts on the field?) seems like a reciple for a quick loss. Interesting idea, I just don't see it being very effective - I think Vandus needs a squad to drop in with him and gain the benefits of his CA.

Exactly, that's why it is not competetive. Without Lords of the Storm and the needed heroes but with gavriel you could drop vandus into combat, if needed (and your target is not bubblewrapped) you can give him x CP times +3 on his charge (effective against chaff is a dropped celestant prime + gavriel, who can fly over enemies during his charge). Thus list is about having maaany CP. One could erase the phoenix guard to gain more CP. 

[knightish]

Hey Guys

Just starting a SCE / Order army. 
I can see from this thread as well as reading the book.

There seems to be a fair bit of power disparity in units.
This army is going to be a modelling and painting project, I want to spend some serious time on each unit. 
However I also like to play in Tments etc and feel like I have a chance. 

Could anyone help me identify some units that are worth looking into and any to avoid? 
Just in a general sense.

I don't particularly want to spend months making/painting a list to find it is trash. 

To give you an idea of the theme of the army:
Order, Wildmen / Norse theme / Woad warriors etc

From the Beast Realm. 

Stonehorn converted up to a counts as Stardrake with Lord etc
So lots of primal lost SCE. 

Thanks to anyone has the time / inclination to help!

 

-Will

[Black Blade]

I made a thread talking about Stormcast spells, I didn't want to clog up this thread with my breakdown. Pop on over and let me know what you think.