AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Deadkitten]

******, OK, so images in reverse order.  At any rate, Shifting Objectives.  Was a cool game.  He took the first turn and ran onto the objectives.  I advanced, screened and basically shot away his screens.  I made a mistake on my left.  I should have charged the Ungors instead of shooting with Pinks.  They obliterated them and I couldn't charge onto the objective. 

I got priority going into 2 and shot up what I could.  Then he cleared my screens.  

He then got priority going into 3 and crashed into me.  Once my turn rolled around, I essentially just cleared out what was in combat.

Turn 4 he summoned a 20 block of demonettes , but again, when we got into my shooting, I just cleared it out.

Stupid lucky good moment was on the right.  After the Keeper and 10 demonettes hit the Pinks, I was down to just the icon bearer.  I had a DD1 that I spent on Battleshock, rolled a 6 to put me at 7 Pinks.  MH brought 2 back putting me at the sweet spot of 9 to be able to cast their buff spell.  Not the mention the extra weight of fire. 

The list is slow.  But being able to take a charge and then just shoot off whatever I was in combat with really worked out.  The shooting is just so much damage.

 

[Cambot1231]

If I have a Unit of horrors composed of say 12 Blues and 6 Brims can I cast fold reality on them and then just add D6 Pink horrors back in including a pink horror banner bearer?

[Myzyrael]

If that unit has included these pinks and they were slain, then yes.

you cannot add pinks to units that started only with blues. 

[GeneralZero]

For the Lord of change: rod of sorcery or Sword?

(Tell me for AoS and for 40K please....)

[Lou_Cypher]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

For the Lord of change: rod of sorcery or Sword?

(Tell me for AoS and for 40K please....)

If your AoS LoC is in combat, it's likely about to die soon. Grab the Stick.

 

40k.... not sure. 

[GeneralZero]

My goal is to play kairos in a sorcery chamber and immediatly summon LoC... So, you seem to confirm what I thought: make the LoC a ranged weapon (= rod of sorcery?)...

[Deadkitten]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:26 PM, Lou_Cypher said:

If your AoS LoC is in combat, it's likely about to die soon. Grab the Stick.

 

40k.... not sure. 

That's not true 100% of the time.  And I don't mean 99.9% either.

The LOC is soooo expensive.  I think you want him up there.  No, you can't throw him into any combat without thinking about it, but being able to Destiney Dice the sword is a ton of damage, either as a first activation or running down a supporting character or even taking on a crappy battleline unit.  If you're just running a shooty CH, then how much more shooting do you actually need anyway?  The Rod is better in a vacuum, but I do think the sword has a place and shouldn't be dismissed quite so easily.   

 

[GeneralZero]

I absolutly agree with this. But, at the end of the day you have to choose. I like th sword profile with high rend and high damage. But will I put my LoC in close combat? Not really. And, the LoC always has the big staff, hasn't he? So, he still can CC with the staff? (which is no so bad) + the rest of CC natural weapons

Edit: and if you make him survive more than 1 turn, the addition of all damages done at each turn is probably better than the (most likely) one turn CC sword damage. What do you think?

Edited May 2, 2020 by GeneralZero

[obmik1]

So, I'm trying to build an isolation list that is

A. Ghb proof to some extent, 

B. Not horrible to play against for opponents #friendlytzeentch

C. Can win games

So that I can get it all painted up. I've already started my painting obviously but most of what I have painted fits into the list anyway. 

 

So next the reason I think its ghb proof, most everything in the list, I believe, will not go up in points; Excluding the gaunt summoner, and the darkfire daemonrift. 

 

- I have 120 points of redundancy in the list I think, the 20 man acolytes squad can drop to 10 man, and the gaunt on disk can be a gaunt on foot. And the darkfire daemon rift can be traded for geminids, which means I still have a valuable tool, it just does a different job. 

 

So what do you think? If I get this painted up will I still be in a decent place come next ghb? Think its solid enough to take on some of the big boyz? Once iso is all over and the tournement season starts up, however that looks, I'm hoping to get out there and go to an event, for funsies. 👍

 

Thanks

[Deadkitten]

On 5/2/2020 at 11:30 AM, GeneralZero said:

I absolutly agree with this. But, at the end of the day you have to choose. I like th sword profile with high rend and high damage. But will I put my LoC in close combat? Not really. And, the LoC always has the big staff, hasn't he? So, he still can CC with the staff? (which is no so bad) + the rest of CC natural weapons

Edit: and if you make him survive more than 1 turn, the addition of all damages done at each turn is probably better than the (most likely) one turn CC sword damage. What do you think?

Meh, Rule of Cool.   At the end I just sort of said to myself, "How the hell am I NOT going to give him the sword?"  That says more about me rather than how good/bad the sword is.

 

EDIT:  Also, the more LoC you're putting on the table, the more I think you just want some variety.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Deadkitten

[GeneralZero]

3 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

EDIT:  Also, the more LoC you're putting on the table, the more I think you just want some variety.

I just assembled Kairos and a LoC with the RoD. Amazing minis 😉 

I am now on the verge of assembling a bunch of kairic acolytes (a box in fact). So, this is 20 KA. With my actual policy "build all the special chars" meaning always have the HQ/FLAG/Mucsician etc... on each min group (min unit size) , I'll go with the 3 spe chars (adept/scroll/vulchars) and probably all the cursed glaives (3 spears?).

So, what is the consensus about the weapons?

- should I arm the adept with a blade or a glaive?

- what's about the main troop: dual blades or shields?

[Deadkitten]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

I just assembled Kairos and a LoC with the RoD. Amazing minis 😉 

They really are.  Every now and again I can drag my wife kicking and screaming into a hobby conversation.  We had quite the one over which head/tongue combo I should use.

As far as weapon combos go.  I'm WAY too old school in this dept.  I only have the 1 icon in my 20 Pinks.  BUT you should max out the glaives.  Any time the venn diagram of coolness and 'good' lines up, go full tilt.

Shields vs Double Knives I think falls more into the "season to taste" camp.  The cheeky answer is Knives bc it will be easier to go from Knives to shields if Shields become the obvious answer. 

As always, consider the role.  I'm sure 1 of each is not unreasonable.  After that, for the third???

[GeneralZero]

Do you know if the box of 20 KA allow s to build 2 full built units of 10 kA with adepts+scroll+wulchars+3 glaives?

[GeneralZero]

15 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

They really are.  Every now and again I can drag my wife kicking and screaming into a hobby conversation.  We had quite the one over which head/tongue combo I should use.

ANd the good thing to know: when you have built the 2 kits, you still have a TON of interesting pieces for kitbashing, including necks, heads+tongues, wheapons, scrolls....

[Deadkitten]

27 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

ANd the good thing to know: when you have built the 2 kits, you still have a TON of interesting pieces for kitbashing, including necks, heads+tongues, wheapons, scrolls....

Have you seen the Gotrek w LoC head chopped off?

[Grimrock]

59 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Do you know if the box of 20 KA allow s to build 2 full built units of 10 kA with adepts+scroll+wulchars+3 glaives?

Yup, that's what i did. You can usually tell if you check the sprues on the GW page. If the box comes with 20 models but the sprues they show only have enough to build 10, then that usually means that there is a duplicate set included. Oh and in this case it also says it in the description at the bottom of the page.

[NJohansson]

On 5/2/2020 at 6:30 PM, GeneralZero said:

I absolutly agree with this. But, at the end of the day you have to choose. I like th sword profile with high rend and high damage. But will I put my LoC in close combat? Not really. And, the LoC always has the big staff, hasn't he? So, he still can CC with the staff? (which is no so bad) + the rest of CC natural weapons

Edit: and if you make him survive more than 1 turn, the addition of all damages done at each turn is probably better than the (most likely) one turn CC sword damage. What do you think?

I always go back and forth between the Rod and Sword. In the end the sword wins (for me) not because it is great but because I have tons of ****** shooting anyway - 2D6 more or less rarely means anything. The sword on the other hand is useless 90% of the time since the LoC tends to stay out of CC BUT it provides me with three things:

1) The chance to really threaten support level characters in CC (any decent save hero is more or less safe from the Rod);

2) Prevents the LoC from getting charged by mediocre “hunter” units - any decent hammer will still destroy the LoC but most 100-200 point units will regret fighting a LoC with the sword; and 

3) The Hail Mary situation where you have no choice but to commit the LoC or lose the game. If the LoC will need to charge a 3-400+ monster I rather have the Sword (odds are the opponent will have a nice set of new feathers regardless but the sword makes it at least a possibility).

[umpac]

10 hours ago, NJohansson said:

I always go back and forth between the Rod and Sword. In the end the sword wins (for me) not because it is great but because I have tons of ****** shooting anyway - 2D6 more or less rarely means anything. The sword on the other hand is useless 90% of the time since the LoC tends to stay out of CC BUT it provides me with three things:

I used to be a sword guy for similar reasons but that was in the old book when the rod was worse and you usually "telelported" forward in the hero phase and flew back in the move phase, leaving you outside of 18". Now you are gonna be in range a lot more since your spell is also 18".

For damage, the sword does an avarage of 2.08 wounds vs 4+ save but its super yanky (basically 45-45% chance of getting 3 or 0, and 10% of getting 6). The rod shoots for an avarage of 2.07 but is less yanky, which means shooting + charging is basically the same damage as charging with a sword. Of course when you throw in shooting penalties like look-out-sir into the mix, or if your target has better save the sword starts be a more clear winner in melee. The rod will however deal a lot more damage during the course of a game.

Destiny dice makes the sword a lot more appealing (almost 50% chance of doing 6 wounds, 10% chance of doing 0), but I often find that there are better uses for them, even for the kind of awkward 4s. The rod adds steady damage that might not seem like much on its own, but you have a lot of that kind of shooting and it really adds up. 

I guess this is more up to personal experience and playstyle but my LoC is never in combat unless the game is basically either won or lost already. The rod is consistent and always performs decently while the sword is more of a "silver bullet" kind of deal. I used to like the idea of being able to drop some DD and smash something with 3-6 damage but I have never been in a situation where that would have had a deciding impact on a game, which made me switch to rod.

[mmimzie]

I like the sword because it's a good dump for destiny dice. IT works nice with those 2s and 3s in our destiny dice pool that don't see a lot of love, and make the bird really strong on that alone as a tool that can go slice a character up. 

As @umpac said the rod is definitely a great tool for consistency as you don't have to charge to use the darn thing, but it's never gonna be a star. Basically the rod is a free auto cast arcane bolt against most targets.  

That said again the sword is good when you need it as it can become very consistent.  Where the rod blends into your haze of arcane flame that your shooting accross the table. 

As above my LoC isn't usualy ever in combat, but i take the sword because i like a tool for when i need it, and i find those moments are more important than a few damage here and there. For instance finishing off stuff like bonedaddy catapults, capitolizing on a hole i made toward a slann, or other key game swinging moments.  The LoC is near 400 pts so you i feel giving it a tool that lets you make it do work is great. 

edit: sword also works well if you get a wizard to bring the spell arcane transformation. Letting the bird get 3 attacks or even 4 attacks with the scheme so you can burn all your destiny dice to go crazy on one target. It's just nice to have that in your pocket and make your LoC more spooky than he has any right to be.  Not unrealisticly you can get 3 (some times 4) auto hitting auto wounding -2rend 3 damage attacks. I pulled this out of my but once and it felt very great as a game winning moment. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by mmimzie

[Kaylethia]

On 3/28/2020 at 10:54 PM, Okonomiyakimarine said:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- General
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet  

Battleline
6 x Screamers of Tzeentch (160)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 50

Trying this list out against Ironjawz, now that my local quarantine has been lifted and the FLGS allows 1-on-1 games without spectators. Looks nasty, and I'm looking forward to the salt mine that comes with summoning 360 point worth of extra nonsense for (as my opponent will put it) no cost.

If I remember to take pictures, I'll slap them up when I get a chance.

[GeneralZero]

This list is indeed nasty at 1000pts. But I'm curioous how it will do. Because, tbh, there is no heavy CC hitter. You already have some long range fire, I'd go with enlighten in place of skyfire... Mobility of screamer + spam of horrors where they need to be is enough to control the table. 

[mmimzie]

I'd say if any army could get away with out not having a heavy hitting CC unit it would be tzneetch. That said his list does lack a little punch. Outside of the screamers when fighting monsters. 

[Ggom]

What are folks thoughts on using corvus cabal as kairic acolytes? The acolytes are decent, even great models, but the corvus cabal hit the spot for me. I think they are a bit smaller than the acolytes tho.

Alternatively, how about as Chaos Marauders, given that those are also battleline? I’m planning a painting project and am trying to get a minimum of battleline for a playable army.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Ggom

[mmimzie]

13 hours ago, Ggom said:

What are folks thoughts on using corvus cabal as kairic acolytes? The acolytes are decent, even great models, but the corvus cabal hit the spot for me. I think they are a bit smaller than the acolytes tho.

Alternatively, how about as Chaos Marauders, given that those are also battleline? I’m planning a painting project and am trying to get a minimum of battleline for a playable army.

Marauder's work with a word Lord and giving a unit +1 attack from 9"+ charges. 

 

Chaos knights also work well with destiny dice they compete with enlightened, but can do even better with good support. 

 

All can get an effective extra tend via arcane suggestion. 

[Kaylethia]

Reporting back: we ended up playing Gifts From the Heavens on a 4*4 table for a total of four sectors instead of the usual six. He was trying out a Big Waagh list with a Warchanter, 2x10 Ardboys, 20 Arrowboys, 10 Morboys and a Wurrgog Prophet.
I gave him the first turn, after deploying clustered in the middle, he moved up a bit, assumed that Look Out, Sir! would keep his general safer from my massive shooting. In his defense, he hadn't gone against anything like the skyfires before, so when I shot three shots at his general, got a natural six, subbed in two more from my Fate Dice, dealt 6 mortal wounds, he was understandably upset. It was almost a repeat of the time I fielded Kurnoth Hunters for the first time and took out his general in a single shooting phase. He kept winning initiative and I kept forgetting to move up my heroes to blast magic and use command abilities on my units, so we ended up drawing on victory points and he won on kill points, 730 to 500.

Big takeaways from the game:

• Screamers need the CA or need ot retreat. Otherwise you're stuck in a pillow fight.
• Try to keep a CP open to save your Horrors, it's nuts when you take 24 damage in melee, split, and lose everything in battleshock.
• Pink Horros have a ward save, and I should remember to use it.

I have another game lined up in a few hours, this time against some variety of dwarves.

I am enjoying this army very much at the 1000 point level and I've already planned a not-khorne-for-reals paint scheme.