AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Hebroseph]

If i was going a spellcaster heavy army, but didn't want to run changehost. I'd try out host arcanaum. I know a lot of people go with guild of summoners but I think the summoning isnt as good because of the timing with summoning and casting. Running karios who gets to auto learn any spell he dispells, and get an 100% unstoppable dispell on the 1st 3rd and 5th round sounds fun. Also screamers are decent in that host and give you fast pressure to put on other casters to let you try and dominate the phase. 

[Dak_Rogan]

Hello,

i'm in doubt, can you pick Kairos in a Changehost battalion ?

It's written Lord of Change but the ability needs a keyword lord of change which Kairos has, i'm confused !

[Hebroseph]

Karios can not be in a changehost. 

 

[Dak_Rogan]

1 hour ago, Hebroseph said:

Karios can not be in a changehost. 

 

Thanks

[Grotruk]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:07 AM, simakover said:

im interest in more spell caster army, like using kairos, daemon rift, more endlesses

You could run any kind of Guild Of Summoners list. For example, see the 4th ranked player list from this tournament:

https://tabletop.to/Tempest2020/

[Fiddybucks]

On 2/16/2020 at 10:23 PM, NJohansson said:

Just out of curiosity - where in the FAQ (good to know if the argument comes up)?

Q: If I add units to my army after a battle has started, and
my army has an allegiance ability that adds a keyword to the units in the army, is that keyword received by eligible units I add to my army after the battle has begun? For example, if I have a Stormcast Eternals army and use the Stormhosts rule to give all Stormcast Eternals units in the army the Hammers of Sigmar keyword, would any new Stormcast Eternals units that I add to my army get the keyword? By the same token,
if an allegiance ability has a spell lore that grants a spell to Wizards in an army, do Wizards that I add to the army that have the appropriate allegiance gain a spell?
A: Yes to all questions
 

page 10 of designers commentary 

[Heroflegend21]

Hey guys in a dispute with my fellow wargamers about Kairos Oracle of eternity affecting their dice rolls within the realm of dice I'm able to affect. So can I change an opponents single dice roll with it?

[Inquisitorsz]

27 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

Hey guys in a dispute with my fellow wargamers about Kairos Oracle of eternity affecting their dice rolls within the realm of dice I'm able to affect. So can I change an opponents single dice roll with it?

Yes Kairos can replace any 1 die, including your opponent's. They also can't be modified or re-rolled, so it's great to us it to stop an important charge or a free unbind. 

[Smashin']

29 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

Hey guys in a dispute with my fellow wargamers about Kairos Oracle of eternity affecting their dice rolls within the realm of dice I'm able to affect. So can I change an opponents single dice roll with it?

Yes, the ability allows you to change a single dice roll following the parameters given to the valid result of your choosing. As the ability says: "in either player's turn, if this model is on the battlefield, you can replace a single dice" you can choose it to be an opponent's dice roll and there is nothing there to suggest otherwise.

The fact Kairos can manipulate the opponent's roll fits with his lore and the ability flavour text so there should be no dispute.

[Heroflegend21]

3 minutes ago, Smashin' said:

Yes, the ability allows you to change a single dice roll following the parameters given to the valid result of your choosing. As the ability says: "in either player's turn, if this model is on the battlefield, you can replace a single dice" you can choose it to be an opponent's dice roll and there is nothing there to suggest otherwise.

The fact Kairos can manipulate the opponent's roll fits with his lore and the ability flavour text so there should be no dispute.

You'd be surprised..... Haha

[Ergo Proxy]

I had a similar situation come up while playing against my friends idoneth list:

he brought on his two units of 6 eels and rolled for charge with his soul scryer giving his bonuses. He rolled a 12 and I changed one of them to a 1 resulting in a 7 that can’t be modified - meaning he could only re roll one of the dice, nor apply the extra 3” to the charge (that’s how I imagine it working.) 

However he disputed saying that the charge roll still gained the additional 3” because the ability came after the kairos ability with the wording “you MUST add 3” to the charge” with  importance being on the ‘must’ part. I suggested that due to the most recent faq of the core rules suggesting abilities that clash, the latest supersedes the other - and that his ability occurs during the “beginning of the charge phase” while Kairos occurs “during the charge phase” suggesting kairos overrules. He feels different.

 

little help?

Edited February 24, 2020 by Ergo Proxy

[Smashin']

1 hour ago, Ergo Proxy said:

I had a similar situation come up while playing against my friends idoneth list:

he brought on his two units of 6 eels and rolled for charge with his soul scryer giving his bonuses. He rolled a 12 and I changed one of them to a 1 resulting in a 7 that can’t be modified - meaning he could only re roll one of the dice, nor apply the extra 3” to the charge (that’s how I imagine it working.) 

However he disputed saying that the charge roll still gained the additional 3” because the ability came after the kairos ability with the wording “you MUST add 3” to the charge” with  importance being on the ‘must’ part. I suggested that due to the most recent faq of the core rules suggesting abilities that clash, the latest supersedes the other - and that his ability occurs during the “beginning of the charge phase” while Kairos occurs “during the charge phase” suggesting kairos overrules. He feels different.

 

little help?

From my understanding I'd agree with you that it cannot be modified with the extra 3", the word "must" doesn't overrule a rule that overrules their own rule (very Tzeentchy) and I haven't seen anything to suggest it does. To remove any doubt I suggest emailing AoSFAQ@gwplc.com and they should give you a definitive answer, please share here when they reply to help any others experiencing similar disputes.

[simakover]

that roster do you think is optimal now for open meta? 12 flamers + 20 pinks?

[Worm]

One question.

I am looking at the GAUNT SUMMONER and he is a MUST have in a list, for only 240points or 260point on disc, you get level 2 caster that can summon a unit of 10x Pink Horrors.

I am missing something here as this is just to good, basicly you get level 2 caster for 40points?

So what is wrong here, can i have 2 of them and summon 2x 10 Pinks???

[Smashin']

1 hour ago, Worm said:

I am missing something here as this is just to good, basicly you get level 2 caster for 40points?

So what is wrong here, can i have 2 of them and summon 2x 10 Pinks???

Pretty much, only downside is they are fragile and could be sniped turn 1 before you deploy the Pink Horrors but you can protect them as much as possible if you see a threat so it's not usually an issue. They are extremely good and the warscroll spell is excellent at thinning hordes.

There's not much reason not to take one aside from thinking about battalions / one drop lists.

[WargamerRyguy]

Hello Acolytes! 

I'm fairly new to the forum but have been playing DoT since the original release of the battletome a few years back. I've always loved Tzeentch in its myriad of ways and changes and its been awesome seeing the flux of the book's effectiveness over time. 

In terms of play style and list building, I don't judge anyone for taking Horror spam because its undeniable how great the army works with and around that unit. I do however really enjoy the other aspects of tzeentch that move away from just daemons and work in mortals or beasts. I've been really trying to figure out a somewhat effective list using Tzaangor with Enlightened and Skyfires because I love the models and they're my best painted. Wanted to ask if anyone had any comments or pointers on this list I've been working on:

 Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
Skyshoal Coven (140)
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

I like the idea of running a ton of Tzaangors, but the core tax for the battalion is way too high to justify. Being able to take screamers as battleline in Hosts Arcanum means I can effectively gain a lot more bodies in the Tzaangor units. I have always loved the speed of discs and the ability to fly across the board with impunity and strike exactly where needed. The extra movement added to flying units at the beginning of the game sounds amazing, as well as those free unbinds. 

The list can auto summon 10 Pinks and 6 Screamers to fill gaps where I need support or objective holding. The tzaangor do there thing and just crash into whatever my opponent puts on his/her front line. The enlightened paired with the Fatemaster are my speedy hammer and the Shaman sits back and chills with the Skyfires until I need to use their discs to strike weaker units or stuff strung out or left alone. 

The ability for 75% of my army to do mortal wounds just by moving seems pretty neat, but may be pretty situational im thinking. 

I'm also not positive on taking Daemonrift, but I've experienced how amazing the spell can be. 

Any suggestions of tactics would be great! Thanks! 

[Sumanye]

6 hours ago, Worm said:

One question.

I am looking at the GAUNT SUMMONER and he is a MUST have in a list, for only 240points or 260point on disc, you get level 2 caster that can summon a unit of 10x Pink Horrors.

I am missing something here as this is just to good, basicly you get level 2 caster for 40points?

So what is wrong here, can i have 2 of them and summon 2x 10 Pinks???

Definitely not a must have.  I think the downside is that although, yes do get a 200pt pink unit and a 40pt 2 cast wizard, the GS doesn't fill changehost and the 200 pt pinks don't fill your battleline.  So you are still going to have to buy another battleline you wouldn't otherwise need if you just paid 200 pts for pinks, and you'll need to buy another unit for your changehost, and your changehost won't be a 1 drop.  

The flying GS can cast darkfire, so if you are building that into your list, he's obviously essential.  Outside of that, I hardly consider GS a must personally.

[NJohansson]

57 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

Definitely not a must have.  I think the downside is that although, yes do get a 200pt pink unit and a 40pt 2 cast wizard, the GS doesn't fill changehost and the 200 pt pinks don't fill your battleline.  So you are still going to have to buy another battleline you wouldn't otherwise need if you just paid 200 pts for pinks, and you'll need to buy another unit for your changehost, and your changehost won't be a 1 drop.  

The flying GS can cast darkfire, so if you are building that into your list, he's obviously essential.  Outside of that, I hardly consider GS a must personally.

Both GS have the STD keyword so both can cast the rift spell (or any other STD spells. As to how good he is - if you don’t go the Changehost route he is really a steal for 240-260 points. Even with one more battle line he is still a 40 point hero that can cast two spells. Not to mention the forward deployment of his summoned unit and that he provides the locus bonus.

[Sumanye]

9 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

Both GS have the STD keyword so both can cast the rift spell (or any other STD spells. As to how good he is - if you don’t go the Changehost route he is really a steal for 240-260 points. Even with one more battle line he is still a 40 point hero that can cast two spells. Not to mention the forward deployment of his summoned unit and that he provides the locus bonus.

I mean sure he is great, but he’s not a must, even without changehost.

[Sacrednikki89]

Balewind Vortex is unavailable for purchase and I'm thinking of making my own, one little downfall, I can't see the Footprint online, I can see the height of the tornado but the base? Nowhere to be seen.
Anyone know that off-hand?

[The World Tree]

On 2/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, Smashin' said:

Pretty much, only downside is they are fragile and could be sniped turn 1 before you deploy the Pink Horrors but you can protect them as much as possible if you see a threat so it's not usually an issue. They are extremely good and the warscroll spell is excellent at thinning hordes.

There's not much reason not to take one aside from thinking about battalions / one drop lists.

Yes, he clearly shold be summoning 10 blue horrors rather than pinks. That would make him a good but not insane choice.

[Fiddybucks]

18 hours ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

Balewind Vortex is unavailable for purchase and I'm thinking of making my own, one little downfall, I can't see the Footprint online, I can see the height of the tornado but the base? Nowhere to be seen.
Anyone know that off-hand?

Problem with the vortex base is it’s not a perfect circle. Not sure how TOS would rule a stand in. I’ll measure mine when I get home and post it 

[Skreech Verminking]

Well since I bought myself the book and even own a few models to be able to play a full out tzeentch army, I thought of trying them out this sunday.

For fun I have chosen this list:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form
LEADERS
Magister (100)
- Artefact : Wand of Restoration - Lore of Fate : Infusion Arcanum
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait : Nexus of Fate - Artefact : Greenglade Flask
- Lore of Fate : Bolt of Tzeentch
UNITS
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Dragon Ogors (140)
- 1 x Paired Ancient Weapons - 2 x Draconic War glaives
5 x Chaos Warriors (100)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (100)
- Greatblade
5 x Chaos Warriors (100)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
BEHEMOTHS
Ghorgon (160)
BATTALIONS
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)
TOTAL: 1470/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 102
     LEADERS: 2/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 0/400

it’s probably not the best list, or one which would probably never be used in any competitive list, but for a fun factor I think this list might be interesting😁.

So any thoughts or ideas or feedback you want to give back is really appreciated.

[Sumanye]

19 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Yes, he clearly shold be summoning 10 blue horrors rather than pinks. That would make him a good but not insane choice.

This is what I thought should happen.  However, if this change is made I think his points should come down considerably as well.  180 pts for foot and 200 for disc seems more reasonable.  That's 20 more points for a foot GS compared to before the book, which when you factor in the spell nerf and the added summoning (not to mention a general point discount for Tzeentch wizards),  180 seems about right.  At 180, you're paying a premium on a double cast wizard for this book with a 6+ save, but he has a free unit and a strong signature spell.

[NJohansson]

7 hours ago, Sumanye said:

This is what I thought should happen.  However, if this change is made I think his points should come down considerably as well.  180 pts for foot and 200 for disc seems more reasonable.  That's 20 more points for a foot GS compared to before the book, which when you factor in the spell nerf and the added summoning (not to mention a general point discount for Tzeentch wizards),  180 seems about right.  At 180, you're paying a premium on a double cast wizard for this book with a 6+ save, but he has a free unit and a strong signature spell.

At 180 with summoning (even blues) he still is probably a bargain for the points (80-100 points for a two spell wizard, access to both lores and STD endless spells - yes please). Right now I don’t see me ever taking a list without one or two in it unless I go Changehost.