AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Beulettor]

16 minutes ago, Killax said:

 

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I'll try it in my next game, but 160 points for a 5 wounds model that can't get an artefact. Not sure he will live long enough to summon his hounds or dispell something :-/.

160 point is expensive for 1 blood tith ^^.

[Zamik]

39 minutes ago, Killax said:

Well, the news is out: 

- Karnak, seventy more
- Bloodletters, same cost, directly nerfed in power
- Bloodcrushers, minus ten
- Fleshhounds, same cost, can do pew pew

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That just sounds excessive, especially without lowering the points of other units. Ah well, I'd gotten the sense prior to this that Wrath and Rapture was the Slaanesh show anyway.

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Zamik said:

That just sounds excessive, especially without lowering the points of other units. Ah well, I'd gotten the sense prior to this that Wrath and Rapture was the Slaanesh show anyway.

It's been close to two years now where Skullcrushers arn't Moral Daemon, Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut isn't Mortal Daemon and Mighty Lord of Khorne with Fleshhound isn't Mortal Daemon.

Whoever gave 2 cents about Khorne unit design in GW left the building a while ago, instead we get worse units and a long overdue reason to thake Bloodcrushers at all and with their single attack they are still very far from good.

[kozokus]

Not sure if Khorne is not gonna be getting a third book like the one they get when Sigmarine2.0 was out.

After all, the book is currently broken,  Not broken-too powerful but broken-unplayable :

 

-They have the longest FAQ/Errata list of ALL battletome-the number of errors/clarification is HUGE even for a second edition

-There is basically an errata for almost every single bataillon

-There is abusable mechanics based on unlimited stackable effects

-There is unplayable warscrolls, even by non competitive noob standards (deathbringers/grinder/...)

-There is inconsistency in keywords compared to other books

 

Plus, the army construction is boring because there is staples you cannot avoid : 

The army, rely on the presence of the Bloodsecrator, which rely on the presence of gorepilgrims. 99% of the khorne armies you will find have that 700 points core that you can't avoid. Gorepilgrims is not good by essence, it is mandatory. Just because you can't play effectively without.

 

Like the Beastclay, the army doesn't play by its fluff : Khorne is supposed to chop things and enjoy things dying whatever they belongs to. The warriors are supposed to HATE each others because it is Khorne's way. 

Instead, you are forced to play Khorne superfriends™ Each pieces of your army is perfectly in place and order, supoprting each other, stacking blessings, abilities, commands, to make  all your individually bad units able to kill things. Because your warriors are not bloodcrazed warriors as dangreous for the ennemy as for his allies. Nope.

 

Just to say that signs are piling that SheWhoThirst is back and the time for a Khorne book like the one they got 2 years ago  seems ideal.

Another good sign : the warscrolls rework looks a like a harbinger for what is to come like for the Blightwar box.

 

 

[Killax]

At least the model is cool I guess, but dont see a real reason to play it.

[Roark]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Well, the news is out: 

- Karnak, seventy more
- Bloodletters, same cost, directly nerfed in power
- Bloodcrushers, minus ten
- Fleshhounds, same cost, can do pew pew

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Well that's annoying. Khorne is on a particular trajectory with GW it seems.

Please stop winning all those major events peeps.

Karanak miniature looks amazing. I had concerns about the very "crowded" heads, but I dig it.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Roark

[Agent of Chaos]

I thought the list winning events was the Council of Blood, which they have done nothing to nerf...

[Enoby]

Is Khorne considered weak with these new changes? From what people here are saying I get the idea that they're not great, but they seem to do well enough in tournaments. Is there a reason for this?

[Agent of Chaos]

Khorne was already considered mid-tier. The mass amount of mortal wounds a buffed unit of bloodletters could do is what kept khorne competitive. That and the recent success of the Council of Blood list with 3-4 bloodthirsters. The recent nerfing of the doppelganger cloak via the FAQ to be a once per game ability will likely hurt that list a bit as well.

Bloodletter mortal wounds can no longer be buffed leaving us to rely on 6's which vastly reduces their damage output (while their points have remained the same) and therefore one of khorne's greatest sources of mortal wounds (which are essential in being competitive). 

The ability to summon is certainly significant when looking at competitiveness. However of the summoning armies, khorne has the most limited mechanic, having to choose between using blood tithe to summon units or use special abilities (the sort of special abilities other armies get for free and in addition to their summoning i.e. slaanesh hosts, tzeentch destiny dice, nurgle corruption wheel, seraphon teleport, death legions, etc). In addition khorne is the only summoning army whose unspent summoning points are wasted instead of banked, on top of the points being capped at 8. 

Combine the above with no magic, virtually no shooting (certainly no reliable shooting), a host of redundant or non-cost effective units, expensive battalions, unreliable prayers (outside gore pilgrims), generally poor armour saves across the board, lack of mortal wound saves (outside of allied slaves to darkness units and one or two artifacts), average to low movement (outside of wraith of khorne bloodthirster's command ability and the bloodstoker) and melee units that are average at what they do without buffs.

Khorne can still be a lot of fun to play, looks great on the table and has great fluff/lore, but is going to be outmatched by most opponents on the competitive scene far more often then not. 

[Dan.Ford]

So some people say gw does not want to change the points or warscrolls to balance the army mid season.

But khorne has had some of it warscrolls and points changed.

Hags are 60!!! Karanak 160!!!

Dnettes and witches 270 Bloodletters 320.

its starting to become difficult 

 

[Roark]

8 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

I thought the list winning events was the Council of Blood, which they have done nothing to nerf...

Yeah, I was just being snarky because in general:

5 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Khorne was already considered mid-tier.

 

[Killax]

11 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

I thought the list winning events was the Council of Blood, which they have done nothing to nerf...

It's one list as fas as I know, a real while ago and it wasn't any mayor event as far as I know. Really I can't say these changes are based on anything except for a general 'don't care as it's 2 years old' additude that became WBF's downfall. To me it's no coincedence that new armies matter and old ones do not. It's an old habbit of GW that got me out of WBF to begin with. 

10 hours ago, Enoby said:

Is Khorne considered weak with these new changes? From what people here are saying I get the idea that they're not great, but they seem to do well enough in tournaments. Is there a reason for this?

It's a whole lot worse when you go from a single unit that had acces to 5+/4+ to  Mortal wound versus 6+ to Mortal wound with no cost change.


A 5 wound 160 point character with a 4+ is a hard pill to swallow.

Fleshhounds get 1 shooting attack extra, it's funny that it's there, but it doesn't really matter.

Lastly Bloodcrushers got a 2+ D3 Mortal wound impact hit, better as they used to be, still however have just 1 attack per rider. 

Grand result, effectively two units became more expensive, one practically stayed the same and one got a tiny bit better. To me it's just clear that they don't care about this army anymore. Skullcrushers still are just Mortal, Khorne Lord on Juggernaut is still just Mortal, Khorne Lord with Fleshhound is still just Mortal. Compair that to Chaos undivided, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh you see how much it matters that GW actually puts effort into some armies.

3 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

So some people say gw does not want to change the points or warscrolls to balance the army mid season.

But khorne has had some of it warscrolls and points changed.

Hags are 60!!! Karanak 160!!!

Dnettes and witches 270 Bloodletters 320.

its starting to become difficult 

 

It's starting to become a fallacy. 

[Coyote]

Hello - I’m an avid “gaming stats geek” 

Please help - I’m looking for help or trying to not “recreate the wheel”  generating stats analysis

As a new AoS player I’m trying to wrap my head around the fundamental stats of the game (i.e excel sheets showing Bloodletter reliable stats to hit -> to wound-> modified by save, etc)

What i “don’t know” is all the different units Core Average Reliability (compared to old WHFB (rip)) 

Like the averages for To Hit -> To Wound -> Save (Y/N) -> Mortal (Ward) Save (Y/N), etc.

I’ll put this project together over next week, which will eventually encompass everything... But if anyone had anything that might cut down on time may be appreciated.

***Note my first project is BEFORE any Prayer/Item modifications ***

Edited December 20, 2018 by Coyote

[Dan.Ford]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

 Skullcrushers still are just Mortal, Khorne Lord on Juggernaut is still just Mortal, Khorne Lord with Fleshhound is still just Mortal. Compair that to Chaos undivided, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh you see how much it matters that GW actually puts effort into some armies.

 

All of these warscrolls have been asked to be changed so that they have the Daemon keyword in faq, feedback etc (the same as their counterpart which have the Daemon keyword )

And now also including beast of chaos with skyfire Etc

 

 

 

 

[Havkai]

Hello!
Can someone give a piece of advice for brass despoilers+gore piligrims. I want to put up these 2 battalions, something like 1 doombull, 6 bullgors. 2x10 bestigors, bloodsecrator, 3 priests with frenzy or flesh, 5 blood warriors, 20 and 40 reavers. Not optimised at all, but if you have any ideas for items and traits and ways to make it a bit balanced - I would appreciate a lot! Nothing serious, just fun angry bulls.

[andysonic1]

I think there's a little too much gloom and doom in here. Yes, we got nerfed. No, it isn't going to effect us very much. Khorne wasn't winning tournaments, hell we were already fighting tooth and nail to get in the top 20 of recent tournaments.

Let's look at some Khorne tournament lists:

1. Facehammer GT - Daniel Ford gets 4th with a Murderhost list with no Slaughterpriests - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/fhgt2018-top-10.pdf
2. Blackout 2018 - Daniel Ford came in 10th, same list
   1. Full Results: https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/6/7/6674230219d60a55/BLACKOUT18_results.jpg?c_id=22511440&cs_id=22511440&expiration=1545333049&hwt=00a7f46a0e41c2427b50369d9e7bd260
   2. Lists - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/BLACKOUT_lists2018.pdf
3. Nova Open - David Fields came in 1st with Council of Blood - https://imgur.com/a/n3q67QS
4. Angelcore 2018 - Vincent Chan dead last at 22nd with zero points - Someone else's list is listed in the list page as well, no idea whats going on here - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Angelcore-Lists-2018.pdf
5. Sydney GT - No final results, but there are zero Khorne lists trying to maximize Bloodletter MW - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Master-List-Sydney-GT-18.pdf

There are many people who believe buffing Bloodletter's MW makes Khorne competitive, but tournament players appear to not agree. I could continue looking through tournament results and lists but I did right when 2.0 came out and came to the same conclusion: Bloodletter Bomb died with 2.0, not with Wrath and Rapture. Hell, tournament players are probably praising the change as it means your attack isn't dropped when you roll a 6 (I imagine Daniel Ford is grinning ear to ear).

In general: Khorne needs some minor tweaks, but the other, newer armies need nerfs more. Bringing those armies that are OP due to one reason or another down to the level of their predecessors will indirectly buff Khorne back to where it was pre-2.0. I'd rather they didn't knee-****** buff us and make us the new hated army of the year (which GW has been known to do in the past).

[Zamik]

1 hour ago, andysonic1 said:

I think there's a little too much gloom and doom in here. Yes, we got nerfed. No, it isn't going to effect us very much. Khorne wasn't winning tournaments, hell we were already fighting tooth and nail to get in the top 20 of recent tournaments.

Let's look at some Khorne tournament lists:

1. Facehammer GT - Daniel Ford gets 4th with a Murderhost list with no Slaughterpriests - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/fhgt2018-top-10.pdf

 

I, uh, see a list with a Slaughterpriest with Killing Frenzy and 3 packs of 30 Bloodletters here.

[Zamik]

3 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I, uh, see a list with a Slaughterpriest with Killing Frenzy and 3 packs of 30 Bloodletters here.

I don't see the sky falling from just this change, but it is an accumulation of things that really make Khorne look like stooges instead of the realm-devouring force they are in the literature.

[andysonic1]

48 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I, uh, see a list with a Slaughterpriest with Killing Frenzy and 3 packs of 30 Bloodletters here.

I'll take that one on the chin for not seeing that, but one Slaughterpriest with 3 packs of 30 Bloodletters isn't exactly the norm so I stand by my post. That army could honestly work without the Slaughterpriest in it since the way he runs it he's in your face turn one with 90 Bloodletters.

45 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I don't see the sky falling from just this change, but it is an accumulation of things that really make Khorne look like stooges instead of the realm-devouring force they are in the literature.

I agree it's a death by a thousand cuts. GW seems to have problems figuring out how to buff Khorne without them becoming OP. 40k 8th edition Berzerkers were crazy good when the new rules dropped, but they've been slowly nerfed by internal and global rule changes and updates. AoS seems to be the same: AoS came out and Khorne were the big baddies, now you get a handful or less players taking them in tournaments because they're so difficult to use.

[Easytyger]

2 hours ago, andysonic1 said:

I think there's a little too much gloom and doom in here. Yes, we got nerfed. No, it isn't going to effect us very much. Khorne wasn't winning tournaments, hell we were already fighting tooth and nail to get in the top 20 of recent tournaments.

Let's look at some Khorne tournament lists:

1. Facehammer GT - Daniel Ford gets 4th with a Murderhost list with no Slaughterpriests - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/fhgt2018-top-10.pdf
2. Blackout 2018 - Daniel Ford came in 10th, same list
   1. Full Results: https://secure-hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/6/7/6674230219d60a55/BLACKOUT18_results.jpg?c_id=22511440&cs_id=22511440&expiration=1545333049&hwt=00a7f46a0e41c2427b50369d9e7bd260
   2. Lists - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/BLACKOUT_lists2018.pdf
3. Nova Open - David Fields came in 1st with Council of Blood - https://imgur.com/a/n3q67QS
4. Angelcore 2018 - Vincent Chan dead last at 22nd with zero points - Someone else's list is listed in the list page as well, no idea whats going on here - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Angelcore-Lists-2018.pdf
5. Sydney GT - No final results, but there are zero Khorne lists trying to maximize Bloodletter MW - https://aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Master-List-Sydney-GT-18.pdf

There are many people who believe buffing Bloodletter's MW makes Khorne competitive, but tournament players appear to not agree. I could continue looking through tournament results and lists but I did right when 2.0 came out and came to the same conclusion: Bloodletter Bomb died with 2.0, not with Wrath and Rapture. Hell, tournament players are probably praising the change as it means your attack isn't dropped when you roll a 6 (I imagine Daniel Ford is grinning ear to ear).

In general: Khorne needs some minor tweaks, but the other, newer armies need nerfs more. Bringing those armies that are OP due to one reason or another down to the level of their predecessors will indirectly buff Khorne back to where it was pre-2.0. I'd rather they didn't knee-****** buff us and make us the new hated army of the year (which GW has been known to do in the past).

Bloodletters were not appearing in lists as much likely because they were overcosted at 320.  Sure you can make the argument that 320 felt right but not compared to the plethora of undercosted power units in other armies. 

What’s easier buffing Khorne a bit or nerfing  every other top army? 

And Dan Ford has already posted in this thread stating what he thinks about the nerf to Bloodletters. Did not seem like he was grinning ear to ear lol . . . . .

[Xasz]

39 minutes ago, Zamik said:

I don't see the sky falling from just this change, but it is an accumulation of things that really make Khorne look like stooges instead of the realm-devouring force they are in the literature.

Khorne has been like this for a while now.

Except a few players that seemingly play Khorne exclusively, there has been very little tournament representation or success (the current meta doesn't help tbh).

The army is still fun, as you get to chop things and have a wide range of models. So, if you do not care about competitive games there is  no reason to be sad.

For the few madman that still play Khorne in tournaments, these changes are a kick in the nuggets. It might not seem that way, but if you spend a couple minutes with your calculator... happiness is definitely not what you're going to find. Bloodletters have been the driving force behind a lot of competitive lists, especially Murderhost and Gore Pilgrim Mortal/Daemon hybrid. Bloodcrushers spam might be an option, but I'm really unsure how they will perform in the current meta (big units of tough, unbreakable, sometimes regenerating models, that might even be capable of significant damage) although you can press a lot of models in such a list, on top of a WoK thirster.

[andysonic1]

1 minute ago, Easytyger said:

Bloodletters were not appearing in lists as much likely because they were overcosted at 320.  Sure you can make the argument that 320 felt right but not compared to the plethora of undercosted power units in other armies. 

What’s easier buffing Khorne a bit or nerfing  every other top army? 

And Dan Ford has already posted in this thread stating what he thinks about the nerf to Bloodletters. Did not seem like he was grinning ear to ear lol . . . . .

Hahaha jesus that's what I get for mouthing off without seeing his name. Sorry, @Dan.Ford, didn't mean to put words in your mouth!

I still think the main issue with our army is other armies needing to be brought down. And to be perfectly honest I was one of those people thinking Bloodletters were going down to 100 points. Karanak at 160 = never going to see this guy in a game again. 

[Dan.Ford]

57 minutes ago, andysonic1 said:

Hahaha jesus that's what I get for mouthing off without seeing his name. Sorry, @Dan.Ford, didn't mean to put words in your mouth!

I still think the main issue with our army is other armies needing to be brought down. And to be perfectly honest I was one of those people thinking Bloodletters were going down to 100 points. Karanak at 160 = never going to see this guy in a game again. 

That's ok andysonic1.

I did come 2rd at BOBO as well but I had Skarr instead of the slaughter priest. 

The reason I swapped out Skarr was very simple you may ask.

He just did not die!!!, and reason he did not die was because not a single opponent was concerned about a single model 18" behind 90 bloodletters that just charged 24" across the table into their army.

Thus the slaughter priest came into play at the next and following events.

He gives the army;

plus one to mortal wounds ( hits ) 

pulls units off objectives 

D6 mortal wounds 

Another unbind.

 

At the GT final I made some mistakes in my games and even turned up 20 min late on day 2 .

The finals start 30 min earlier on the second day compared to all the other gt heats . 

Hand up my bad/mistake.

I will say that apart from Council of Blood , Murderhost and maybe Gore pilgrim maybe !

But all our Battalions are too high in points. Mortals and Daemons.

I personally believe that Murderhost should have two points values 150(3-7 units) / 220 (full ,8 units)

The same sort of thing should be applied to other battalions that you get extra abilities if you max out .

Two point values , if GW can do it for Battleline they can do it for the few battalions that give extra abilities then they fully maxed out.

It will open some variation to list creation which includes battalions. 

Oh and yes I did post this idea into GW faq.

[123lac]

Love the new model for Karanak and am getting him purely for rule of cool.

BUT

Very disappointed with the 160 pt cost. He will die to a stiff breeze and can't even take artifacts to boost his survivability.  A smart opponent will just keep the 'quarry' out of range until Karanak is dead, which won't take long.

Maybe with bronzed flesh he might last a little longer...but rather use blessings on big blocks of units and not 1 hero.

[Bululu]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:43 PM, Agent of Chaos said:

I thought the list winning events was the Council of Blood, which they have done nothing to nerf...

Doppleganger Cloak? Nah, my fault he didnt even use the cloak

Edited December 21, 2018 by Bululu