AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Jabbuk]

22 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Because you charged earlier in the turn before you retreated, which means you can still pile in in the combat phase.

Is this the rule you're referring to? 

"A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase."

So if I understand correctly, you can charge in the hero phase, retreat to be out of combat in the move phase, but can then pile in later, even if you're outside of 3", because you made a charge move in the same turn. That's some next level sh--. 

In which scenario would you want to do that exactly? Could you elaborate a bit on your strategy?

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

Is this the rule you're referring to? 

"A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase."

So if I understand correctly, you can charge in the hero phase, retreat to be out of combat in the move phase, but can then pile in later, even if you're outside of 3", because you made a charge move in the same turn. That's some next level sh--. 

In which scenario would you want to do that exactly? Could you elaborate a bit on your strategy?

Well, for a start, it would negate "Unleash Hell" as that can only be done in the charge phase.  You could use it to charge one unit, then use the movement phase to retreat towards another unit and pile in to them - esp with pigs or MK with a longer move.  It could allow you to slingshot past a screen to hit a meatier target, or to get to an objective that was otherwise out of reach.  you only require one model to be within half an inch when you charge, so the others can be towards your intended target within coherency, making the rereat distance shorter.  It's a way of creating extra movement in the right circumstances.  It's more of a tactic than a strategy, really.  You don't even have to get within 3" with your pile-in, you only have to pile-in so you finish no further away from the nearest enemy unit - depends whether you want to fight anything or not. 

Hope that helps.

[5kaven5lave]

Do we think today might be THE DAY when all the pre-order stuff is announced then?

[Magnus The Blue]

27 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Do we think today might be THE DAY when all the pre-order stuff is announced then?

Would be nice , but I suspect it's next weekend.

[Malakree]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:31 PM, Jabbuk said:

Is this the rule you're referring to? 

"A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase."

So if I understand correctly, you can charge in the hero phase, retreat to be out of combat in the move phase, but can then pile in later, even if you're outside of 3", because you made a charge move in the same turn. That's some next level sh--. 

In which scenario would you want to do that exactly? Could you elaborate a bit on your strategy?

There's 2 big tactics you can use with this.

Charge a unit then retreat, you are no longer within 3" so the enemy unit cannot pile in and attack until your own unit has already done so. You're essentially removing that combat from the activation priority.

The other is to charge a unit then hop over it so you are now in a gap in the enemy back line. You then pile in and attack onto a high priority target having bypassed the enemy screen. This is way harder now you can't just add +6" to the retreat using a run as it makes the move a lot tighter.

[mrteige]

On 8/15/2021 at 12:31 AM, Jabbuk said:

Is this the rule you're referring to? 

"A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase."

So if I understand correctly, you can charge in the hero phase, retreat to be out of combat in the move phase, but can then pile in later, even if you're outside of 3", because you made a charge move in the same turn. That's some next level sh--. 

In which scenario would you want to do that exactly? Could you elaborate a bit on your strategy?

like i said earlier. this is probably the only real way to deal with manfred when playing IJ because he cant use his "Mortarch of night" rule

Other than that the other guys hve covered its uses

[Boggler]

On 8/14/2021 at 8:44 PM, Aelfric said:

Well, for a start, it would negate "Unleash Hell" as that can only be done in the charge phase.

I don't know. I read Unleash Hell as being used after a unit finishes a charge move. This means they can shoot you in their own Hero phase if you choose to Ironsunz charge.

Unleash Hell: These warriors have prepared their missile weapons so
they can unleash a devastating volley at the last possible moment.

You can use this command ability after an enemy unit finishes a
charge move. The unit that receives the command must be within 9"
of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all other enemy units. The
unit that receives the command can shoot in that phase, but when it
does so, you must subtract 1 from hit rolls for its attacks and it can
only target the unit that made the charge move.

[Aelfric]

44 minutes ago, Boggler said:

I don't know. I read Unleash Hell as being used after a unit finishes a charge move. This means they can shoot you in their own Hero phase if you choose to Ironsunz charge.

Unleash Hell: These warriors have prepared their missile weapons so
they can unleash a devastating volley at the last possible moment.

You can use this command ability after an enemy unit finishes a
charge move. The unit that receives the command must be within 9"
of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all other enemy units. The
unit that receives the command can shoot in that phase, but when it
does so, you must subtract 1 from hit rolls for its attacks and it can
only target the unit that made the charge move.

It is listed in the Charge Phase section 11.2 along with "Forward to Victory".  The first sentance of this section says " You can use these Command Abilities  in the Charge Phase (see 6.1).".  6.1 says "Each Command Ability will say when it can be used".  So "Unleash Hell" is restricted to use in the Charge Phase only.

[Boggler]

You are so right. I really don't know why I typed that. I must have been thinking that we were talking about Ironsunz, who charge at the end of the enemy charge phase, and still get shot.

Please keep Mighty Destroyers the way it is!

Give Bonesplitterz a MD of their own! Move/Charge/Shoot!

Make Orcs green again!

[Jabbuk]

Had a game last night at 1500pts against a Nurgle list with 2 Great Unclean One. This was my list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)*
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (120)*
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Wurrgog Prophet (170)*
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Wardokk (85)*
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Brutal Beast Spirits
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
10 x Orruk Ardboys (190)**
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (260)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1490 / 1500
Reinforced Units: 2 / 3
Allies: 0 / 300
Wounds: 108
Drops: 7

I ended up winning the game and I gotta say I loved how the MK performed and also the Arrowboys block and the Wurgogg with Wardok synergy. Wurgogg is +2 to cast all the time; Arrowboys provide a ton of bodies and chip damage; and I got 10 Waagh Points turn 1 and hit 20 turn two.

I'm wondering why we don't see lists with a block of Arrowboys around here. I mean, with the current meta full of monsters, 60 attacks at 4+ 4+ -1 Rend (with Brutal Beast Spirit buff) is nothing to scoff at. It's a ton of medium attacks and a good portion makes it through on those monsters.

Anyways, thought I'd share my experience. I really like the feel of the list. Brutish Cunning on the MK was invaluable to deliver the pain. I think in BW it's a must have. I do think that the Warchanter is really the linchpin of all of our list because he makes us able to actually kill stuff, otherwise the damage isn't really there.

I'd like to take this list to 2000 points adding 3 GGs for a unit of 6, a unit of Brutes, a Warchanter and Emerald Lifeswarm for 1990.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Boggler]

Its a good list. I think its the way a lot of people will play BW. You've got points to spare so you're good.

We're waiting on the pts of the Turkey riding Shaman. Hopefully he fits nicely in to a BW and provides some kind of bonus Waaagh Points.

If I can somehow fit 10 Brutes with Jagged Gore hackas AND the Turkey, I'll be super happy.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I'm wondering why we don't see lists with a block of Arrowboys around here. I mean, with the current meta full of monsters, 60 attacks at 4+ 4+ -1 Rend (with Brutal Beast Spirit buff) is nothing to scoff at. It's a ton of medium attacks and a good portion makes it through on those monsters.

Arrowboys kind of bill themselves as anti-monster, but it seems like they can't really get there on their own. 60 attacks or not, 4+/4+ is bad (just about the worst attacking profile you actually get in the game). Literally 25% chance to get damage through, and you still need to make it through their save. For a big monster-hero, you are probably looking at a 3+, so if you get rend -1 it's a 4+. That means an expected damage of 7.5 in the best case.

In the worst case, that hero will have +1 to saves and ignore rend -1, so will be sitting on a 2+, in which case you can expect only 2.5 damage to make it through per shooting phase.

Still, I like Arrowboys as a support piece. If nothing else, they will put pressure on monster heroes to actually pop those two +1 to save abilites all the time. Plus, they are a bunch of semi-cheap 2 wound bodies to sit on an objective. I think you could probably do worse than bring them, but I would definitely not expect them to "counter" any tough monsters on their own.

[Jabbuk]

10 hours ago, Boggler said:

Its a good list. I think its the way a lot of people will play BW. You've got points to spare so you're good.

We're waiting on the pts of the Turkey riding Shaman. Hopefully he fits nicely in to a BW and provides some kind of bonus Waaagh Points.

If I can somehow fit 10 Brutes with Jagged Gore hackas AND the Turkey, I'll be super happy.

I have a feeling that what the Kruelboyz will bring to BW might be mortal wounds on 6s. I mean every Orruk side brings their signature features and poison-tipped weapons seems to be one of theirs. Mortals on 6s would be so good. Then those Arrowboys could really do some work. Crossing fingers.

[Jabbuk]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Arrowboys kind of bill themselves as anti-monster, but it seems like they can't really get there on their own. 60 attacks or not, 4+/4+ is bad (just about the worst attacking profile you actually get in the game). Literally 25% chance to get damage through, and you still need to make it through their save. For a big monster-hero, you are probably looking at a 3+, so if you get rend -1 it's a 4+. That means an expected damage of 7.5 in the best case.

In the worst case, that hero will have +1 to saves and ignore rend -1, so will be sitting on a 2+, in which case you can expect only 2.5 damage to make it through per shooting phase.

Still, I like Arrowboys as a support piece. If nothing else, they will put pressure on monster heroes to actually pop those two +1 to save abilites all the time. Plus, they are a bunch of semi-cheap 2 wound bodies to sit on an objective. I think you could probably do worse than bring them, but I would definitely not expect them to "counter" any tough monsters on their own.

True, true. Against the Great Unclean One, I guess they fared pretty good. I did something like 8 wounds. It was the 2nd time I played the MawKrusha (the first time was 3 years ago) and it was such a beast. The damage ramp up with Violent Fury and Mean'Un was just absurd. He did all the work in the army and cleaned everything.

Though, when the 2nd Great Unclean One charged him, he took so many mortals that he was really crippled. I had a 2up save w/Mystic + Best Day Ever. Still the Mortals really got him, even with the 6up shrug. I know mortal wounds have always been the most reliable damage but I think this edition specifically, it's our salvation. That's why I'm hoping for mw on 6s in BW

[Spiky Norman]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:24 PM, mrteige said:

I killed him once by using the Mighty destroyers trick.

Charge him in the hero phase, retreat in the movement phase (3,1" away) then pile in and smack him in the face at some point in the combat phase.

I actually managed to pull this off in a game yesterday. I had +1 to hit and Mannfred had already taken 5 damage from a Mighty 'Eadbutt spell, so I was sure I was going to take him down... I did 0 damage to him. Granted my opponent rolled really well on the ward saves, but that was a bit disappointing.
If I had played better I would actually have been able to swing the base of my Rogue Idol around in pile-in to get him into the fight with Mannfred too, and then it hopefully would have been another story.
But still, my opponent was a bit surprised (and impressed) by that trick. So thanks againfor mentioning it 🙂

[mrteige]

6 hours ago, Spiky Norman said:

I actually managed to pull this off in a game yesterday. I had +1 to hit and Mannfred had already taken 5 damage from a Mighty 'Eadbutt spell, so I was sure I was going to take him down... I did 0 damage to him. Granted my opponent rolled really well on the ward saves, but that was a bit disappointing.
If I had played better I would actually have been able to swing the base of my Rogue Idol around in pile-in to get him into the fight with Mannfred too, and then it hopefully would have been another story.
But still, my opponent was a bit surprised (and impressed) by that trick. So thanks againfor mentioning it 🙂

of course. hopes it works out for you another time

[Tezia99]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:00 PM, Aelfric said:

It is listed in the Charge Phase section 11.2 along with "Forward to Victory".  The first sentance of this section says " You can use these Command Abilities  in the Charge Phase (see 6.1).".  6.1 says "Each Command Ability will say when it can be used".  So "Unleash Hell" is restricted to use in the Charge Phase only.

I don’t know if it’s been talked about either and they didn’t faq it at all today but the back of the generals handbook states unleash hell in YOUR charge phase. This has pretty big uses for the Ironsunz charge in enemy phase CA. Reading it that way would mean you could charge in their phase and they’re ineligible for unleash hell as well. A few higher profile tournament players (who don’t play IJ) have interpreted it this way as well. 

[Aelfric]

45 minutes ago, Tezia99 said:

I don’t know if it’s been talked about either and they didn’t faq it at all today but the back of the generals handbook states unleash hell in YOUR charge phase. This has pretty big uses for the Ironsunz charge in enemy phase CA. Reading it that way would mean you could charge in their phase and they’re ineligible for unleash hell as well. A few higher profile tournament players (who don’t play IJ) have interpreted it this way as well. 

I see what you mean.  The rule inside says "the charge phase"; on the back "Enemy charge phase". If the latter, then charging in their charge phase would by-pass it.  I think I'll err on the side of caution until it's either faq'd or the new Battletome turns out to no longer contain that ability.  Either solution may be some time coming.  More time to paint Kruleboyz, I suppose.

[Orkmann]

11 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I see what you mean.  The rule inside says "the charge phase"; on the back "Enemy charge phase". If the latter, then charging in their charge phase would by-pass it.  I think I'll err on the side of caution until it's either faq'd or the new Battletome turns out to no longer contain that ability.  Either solution may be some time coming.  More time to paint Kruleboyz, I suppose.

The Ironsunz CA happens at the end of the enemy charge phase, which means the opponent is not eligible to do any during the charge phase ability like unleash hell. 

[riddlesworth]

If you were running brutes, pigs, MBoMK and chanters.

Is there any reason to go ironjawz allegiance over big waagh atm?

[Spiky Norman]

In case anyone loves their Rogue Idol like me, it seems it has taken another step towards being a pure fluff-piece with the latest FAQ.

It has

• Gone up +10pts to 430pts
• Lost re-roll 1's on charge
• Gained +1 to hit on charge
  • So no more buffing it with +1 to hit and having re-roll 1's at the same time
• Gained the Kruelboyz keyword
  • So I guess it won't be moved to Legends in the new Orruk Warclans book. That's good news
• Lost +1 to cast for Grot wizards
  • Don't kick a grot that's already lying down

Let's see what the Kruelboyz keyword can do for it in the new book. A chance on mortals on it's top-bracket 12 attacks isn't all bad.

[Orkmann]

3 hours ago, Spiky Norman said:

In case anyone loves their Rogue Idol like me, it seems it has taken another step towards being a pure fluff-piece with the latest FAQ.

Let's see what the Kruelboyz keyword can do for it in the new book. A chance on mortals on it's top-bracket 12 attacks isn't all bad.

That's a good summary. But he is not an Orruk anymore, so he cant benefit from the poison (unless there is some tricks in the tome to arrange that). What's good however is that he gained the Totem keyword, so can issue CAs to himself. Another thing I found great is that his damage table is much more forgiving now. So overall it is an improvement I believe, but looks still a bit pricey compared to the top monster heroes.

[Orkmann]

3 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

If you were running brutes, pigs, MBoMK and chanters.

Is there any reason to go ironjawz allegiance over big waagh atm?

Having more cp in aos3 is great for IJ. Mighty Destroyer, Ironsunz CA, or even the choppaz one are great. Now you can also reliably spend a cp to have +1 to hit on your key units, so the gap btw IJ and BW output became smaller. For the cabbage it is esp true, as in some instances you can use Finest Hour offensively which is essentially giving you BW cabbage for a turn 🙂

In the end of the day I think it is up to your playstyle. Despite the fluff I found IJ is a tricky, tactical army, and the competitive strength is in the great CAs, which are allowing all sort of movement shenenigens. BW however is more solid, has better magic and the output is higher/more reliable. In my view BW is still better, but only if you bring in some savages to increase the wound count and a wardokk for the curse. 

[Spiky Norman]

12 hours ago, Orkmann said:

That's a good summary. But he is not an Orruk anymore, so he cant benefit from the poison (unless there is some tricks in the tome to arrange that). What's good however is that he gained the Totem keyword, so can issue CAs to himself. Another thing I found great is that his damage table is much more forgiving now. So overall it is an improvement I believe, but looks still a bit pricey compared to the top monster heroes.

True. I missed that it lost the Orruk keyword, but gained Orruk Warclans (and Kruelboyz) instead 🙂

Also true on the new damage profile. They skipped the lowest profile, and just let the top profile go till 8 damage have been taken instead of previous 4 damage. So that's a buff for sure.

[riddlesworth]

15 hours ago, Orkmann said:

Having more cp in aos3 is great for IJ. Mighty Destroyer, Ironsunz CA, or even the choppaz one are great. Now you can also reliably spend a cp to have +1 to hit on your key units, so the gap btw IJ and BW output became smaller. For the cabbage it is esp true, as in some instances you can use Finest Hour offensively which is essentially giving you BW cabbage for a turn 🙂

In the end of the day I think it is up to your playstyle. Despite the fluff I found IJ is a tricky, tactical army, and the competitive strength is in the great CAs, which are allowing all sort of movement shenenigens. BW however is more solid, has better magic and the output is higher/more reliable. In my view BW is still better, but only if you bring in some savages to increase the wound count and a wardokk for the curse. 

All fair points. With the power of save stacking, it's tough to look past metalrippas for the mawkrusha artefact. Building around that in ironsunz is super tough. BW having access to mighty destroyers closes the gap now you can't use multiple MD per turn.

+1 to wound is so insanely powerful - IJ have multiple +1 to hit options but only 1 spell (cast on an 8...) for +1 to wound. Playing soulblught regularly I feel it hard.

 

Agree on BW being strong once you can activate the big abilities with a block of 20-30 saves age boys