How much do you think summoning will affect the 'meta' in AoS 2?

[Enoby]

With most of the summoning rules already leaked or announced, I'd say we have enough to start making educated speculations about how much summoning will play a roll in AoS 2. 

Personally, I think that the points reductions for some non-summoning armies weren't large enough (for example, wanderers). Hopefully this won't be too much of an issue in play, though. I think either Seraphon or Slaanesh got the best summoning rules as they're both the easy to control for and will likely happened naturally, followed by Khorne (who may want to use their blood tithe points on dispelling). Tzeentch's seems pretty difficult to achieve, especially because it relies a lot on your opponent's army also being pretty caster heavy. 

That said, I'm not the most informed on Tzeentch or Nurgle, so I may be missing something big here. What do you guys think? Any combos you can think of? 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I agree for the most part, many non-summoning armies will be at a disadvantage going off the point changes alone. Fyreslayers for example have only seen point increases, freeguild some minor reductions and a CP mechanic. Not enough to counter the free units armies will get. 

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

That said, I'm not the most informed on Tzeentch or Nurgle, so I may be missing something big here. What do you guys think? Any combos you can think of? 

The way horror splitting works now is horrifying (wordplay!).  I believe pinks are more than worth it at 200 and even though tarpitting has changed, I don't think it will make much difference.  If you can move a bunch of pinks far up the board you'll be able to just send wave after wave of horrors to hold your position.  

Seraphon also frighten me.  Thunderquake is going to be strooooong.  It was already good.  Letting the EotG summon plus the Slann without a point increase is dumbfounding.

[Waiyuren]

For financial reasons, i doubt the meta in my area will change much; The one guy that has the models needed to play tzeentch daemons is good to go, but most other players I know won't be changing their lists much. Take me for example;

I play Slaves and various flavours of Slaves-based Chaos, so all I have to do is scratch build or convert a pair of umbral portals, a spawn, a daemon prince, 2 heralds of slaanesh, and a keeper of secrets. That's it, meta shifted. ?

[Ar-Pharazôn]

I believe the biggest change will be a reshuffling of the top tier lists. Some armies will stay viable, but summoning has opened up avenues for others to jump up in the ranks. I suspect clever FEC players could be looking at the top 10 lists. 

[Richelieu]

33 minutes ago, Ar-Pharazôn said:

I believe the biggest change will be a reshuffling of the top tier lists. Some armies will stay viable, but summoning has opened up avenues for others to jump up in the ranks. I suspect clever FEC players could be looking at the top 10 lists. 

I've always fancied an FEC army and that start collecting set is a heck of a deal...I must stay focused on Stormcast and DoK...

[Ar-Pharazôn]

12 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I've always fancied an FEC army and that start collecting set is a heck of a deal...I must stay focused on Stormcast and DoK...

My friend plays FEC and he is very excited for the changes. Give in to the delusions. 

[Enoby]

Just now, Ar-Pharazôn said:

My friend plays FEC and he is very excited for the changes. Give in to the delusions. 

Have we seen the new points for FEC. I could have sworn they had some models that were increased but I don't know where I heard that from. 

[Ar-Pharazôn]

7 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Have we seen the new points for FEC. I could have sworn they had some models that were increased but I don't know where I heard that from. 

I believe standard Ghoul Kings were raised to 200, but since you're also paying for a unit of Ghouls, I think that's fair. 

[Mayple]

I think summoning armies like seraphon, flesh eater courts, and other armies that can focus on summoning as their primary strategy will be good, but not more so than magic-heavy armies, or shooting-heavy armies are good when they focus heavily on 'their thing'

Sure, looking at things in a 'but they get X points free every turn' will make summoning armies appear broken on paper, but on the battlefield I don't believe it will be overtly so. If anything, I'm looking forward to facing it.

[Aginor]

I think the greatest thing about summoning (at least for Seraphon) is the flexibility.

If you see stuff dealing mortal wounds, summon a lot of Skinks as chaff.

But you can also summon Saurus Guard to have your defense up against everything that doesn't do mortal wounds.

Or you can summon some Terradon riders to bomb/claim an objective in the next turn.

Or maybe summon an Eternity Warden if you fear someone will shoot your Slann soon.

Or you can just not summon anything if you don't need it urgently and instesd use a spell or two to snipe something.

Will it be uber strong? No clue. But it sounds like it could be variable and fun to play.

[christophe]

If power gamers succeed to dominate the meta selecting seemingly unattractive combo, I am sure all this crazy spells and free summoning goodness can't stay remotely balanced and would need months of regular nerfs to make it half right. Fortunately when lots of army have access to over powered stuff, they can still cancel each other... The first tournaments will be so fun and random !!!

[Asamu]

I think one key factor to all the new summoning is how it can be limited. Armies that can alpha strike and control a huge amount of space like Brayherd (which got a LOT better, more than just the points changes would suggest - they can charge 30+ inches on turn 1 now), will likely become more common for dealing with a lot of the summoning. If you lose half your army on turn 1, the long term value of summoning won't matter as much, because you need more immediate value to get back into the game so you can contest objectives.

Brayherd, Order Draconis, Seraphon, Stormcast Eternals, Kharadron Overlords, and Khorne, and Sylvaneth (Dreadwood) all have very strong alpha strike options that can control significant board space. Skryre has a lot of potential for sniping key summoning pieces like Astrolith bearers using warp lightning cannons and their automatic mortal wounds as well.

Summoning armies will likely need a lot bodies to protect themselves, or to have their own alpha strike or something with extreme mobility to buy space at the start of the game and deny enemy alpha strikes. Tzeentch might end up skipping on bringing horrors entirely so they can get more bodies on the table to protect from alpha strikes, then use the Thaumaturge spell to bring on horrors and generate extra summoning points to get started on building up more chaff in a longer game, and the Kairos, Magister, and/or Tzaangor Shaman spells to muck up the other player's charges and prevent units from getting in against key units by bringing on more resilient units just within 3" of a single model in the enemy unit so they lock them in combat and stop them from charging something more critical.

That's not to say the summoning armies aren't getting better almost across the board (Khorne is getting a lot of points changes, which will really shake up their competitive lists, so it's hard to judge, and changehost is definitively getting worse), but the popularity of those extremely mobile armies will have a significant impact on how summoning armies are constructed and played and the popularity of summoning heavy armies will likely affect the popularity of alpha strike armies.

I think most of the top armies will remain at the top though, as most of them got summoning. Changehost Tzeentch may not be the top army anymore, but it's not entirely dead, and Mortal Tzeentch armies are probably a bit better, Nurgle is probably even better, Seraphon are better, Slaanesh is better, Sylvaneth got way better, etc...

Idoneth Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine might drop down a bit because they didn't get much with the new rules.

[Urauloth]

52 minutes ago, Asamu said:

I think one key factor to all the new summoning is how it can be limited. Armies that can alpha strike and control a huge amount of space like Brayherd (which got a LOT better, more than just the points changes would suggest - they can charge 30+ inches on turn 1 now), will likely become more common for dealing with a lot of the summoning.

Yeah, I keep thinking about this. The 9" null zone on summoning means you can shut down a lot of potential useful locations your opponent could bring units into just by being there, and you're right that Brayherds have a good combo of speed and numbers to do this with. I should get around to finally building mine, I want to try this out.

[Jamopower]

7 hours ago, Mayple said:

I think summoning armies like seraphon, flesh eater courts, and other armies that can focus on summoning as their primary strategy will be good, but not more so than magic-heavy armies, or shooting-heavy armies are good when they focus heavily on 'their thing'

Sure, looking at things in a 'but they get X points free every turn' will make summoning armies appear broken on paper, but on the battlefield I don't believe it will be overtly so. If anything, I'm looking forward to facing it.

I think the main reason why the summoning looks so good is that tmyou don't really have to focus it, but it's just more of a freebie. For LoN, you'll always have the ability to take back an unit if needed just by using that command ability. For seraphon Engine of Gods and Slann are already solid choices and for other armies you just do what you do normally and get an unit or two on the side. That will make the armies (that already amongs the best) better, no question about it. 

[Sleboda]

It will have zero effect on the meta, as there currently is no game about gaming in AoS.

The environment, the armies you face, or the styles of play that become prevalent in your local area, however, may be affected by the new rules of summoning.

I suspect some players will work hard to take advantage of the new summoning rules for a while. Like all new rules, though, it will level out soon enough.

[Jamopower]

My feeling, which is supported by Russ Veal's article in WHCommunity, is that the there will be sort of Mtg Aggro vs. Control feel. Either you swarm your summoning opponent from turn one, or will be at a disadvantage later in the game.

[Gaz Taylor]

For me, it’s all down to how easy it is to get the summoning points. Those factions that can generate them quickly and have the best bargains will become popular. I don’t think the rules will break the game or cause a massive shift one way or the other. 

But I’ll second what @Jamopower has said and it’ll be like MTG aggro vs control. 

[RuneBrush]

One thing to bear in mind when looking at the "you get X points free" is that the points are skewed towards summoning.  So to say you get a unit of Plaguebearers free (120 points) those PB's have been inflated by lets say 20 points.  That means you're realistically only getting 60 points free and won't have access to them for at least one turn.  I'm guessing the inflation here, but think it makes sense.

I just can't wait to get some models on the table and play with everything!

[Enoby]

8 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

One thing to bear in mind when looking at the "you get X points free" is that the points are skewed towards summoning.  So to say you get a unit of Plaguebearers free (120 points) those PB's have been inflated by lets say 20 points.  That means you're realistically only getting 60 points free and won't have access to them for at least one turn.  I'm guessing the inflation here, but think it makes sense.

I just can't wait to get some models on the table and play with everything!

I'm glad that Slaanesh escaped the inflation - our only unit that changed went down

Only downside is that now I might have to buy the old KoS model ?

[AaronWilson]

I've been building a lot of Tzeentch lists last few days.  With the price hikes on every single Tzeentch hero, trying to strike a balance between having enough Heroes to generate fate points to meaningfully summon while having actual models on the table is currently a tough balance. You can go heavy on heroes but will super thin on the ground, or vice versa but will lack any meaningful summons during a game. 

That said, I think that's unique to Tzeentch as rightly so they got hit hard in GBH18. I think Seraphon, Maggotkin & LoN are armies that will push the boundaries with summoning while able to retain a balanced and strong list. It's hard to say how the meta will shake up and I don't think it's fair to call out any doom and gloom before we really see how it all pans out. 

I have faith in GW to errata/FAQ anything quickly that gets out of hand (They've been excellent for this in 40k). As a Tzeentch player I'm very excited to try and work out new lists, excited for my first ever GT at WHW this year / next year. 

[Ar-Pharazôn]

40 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'm glad that Slaanesh escaped the inflation - our only unit that changed went down

Only downside is that now I might have to buy the old KoS model ?

Obviously you should just get some toy lobster arms and stick them onto a barbie doll. Much better KoS than the official model. 

[Kirjava13]

My local store manager has a Daemons of Slaanesh army that was hard enough to fight before this! I am absolutely soaked in the musk of fear now.

[AaronWilson]

1 hour ago, Kirjava13 said:

My local store manager has a Daemons of Slaanesh army that was hard enough to fight before this! I am absolutely soaked in the musk of fear now.

Drenched in bodily fluids, senses tingling, the thrill of the pain? Sounds like Slaanesh is doing what Slaanesh does!

[Planar]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'm glad that Slaanesh escaped the inflation - our only unit that changed went down

Only downside is that now I might have to buy the old KoS model ?

you might want to check this out: https://www.ragingheroes.com/blogs/news/118410373-tgg2-update-52-may-not-be-sfw-the-great-avatar-of-shaah-4-lust-elves-heroines-the-hunters-void-elves-sf-whats-left