Religious Armies

[Juniper_Thornrose]

Greetings all,

Based on my personal choices and questing for things, I am wondering the following:

Based on the lore for the army, and not dependant on any certain Grand Alliance (thus all are open), which armies or factions do you feel are the most religious?

I know the Devoted of Sigmar fit well, but unsure beyond that. Any help you give is welcome and well thanked for. Also, if you could give the reasons for your choice or choices, it would be greatly appreciated also. Thank you.

[Skabnoze]

Bonesplitterz

Orcs so caught up in their piousness that they renounce all worldly possessions and set off on a life-long crusade of worship.  They also believe so strongly in their god that they manifest many of his miracles themselves through the sheer power of belief.

[Richelieu]

Daughters of Khaine

They believe with all their being that their prayers will resurrect their bloody god.  They go on war pilgrimages to ritualistically shed blood as offerings, believing that with enough tribute he will be reborn.  

That are constantly searching for shards of his body at the behest of Morathi, unaware that Khorne melted them all down and had them forged into weapons for his greatest champions.

Little do the daughters of Khaine know that Khaine is gone for good.  The only shard that remains is his heart, which Morathi jealously guards.  Their entire society would collapse if they were to learn that Morathi siphons off the energy of the witches' blood rites that is meant to feed their weakened god.

[Riavan]

Applies equally to sigmar ?

[flemingmma]

khorne

any slaughter is praise to khorne

blood for the blood god

[Kronos]

All of them, i believe its actually the main driving force behind warhammer, faith. It’s central to every army, so much so that we’re even begining to see god models, Nagash, alarielle, Morathi is parasite off of a god, etc. Greater Darmons are pretty much manifestations/avatars of their respective gods, much like the Deepkin Eidolon of Mathlann...also god based.

Some may be dressed more zealous, like the Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, Stormcast, Seraphon, where they all seem to take the role of priest, or feverous follower, or warrior of their God. 

Way back in the world that was I would have said Chaos, especially marked Chaos, would be the most religious of armies as they were little more than pawns of the Dark Gods, but now every faction is almost becoming that, I personally really like it as it set a scale of power and gives the background an epic story or saga similar to Norse and Greek mythology where mortals interact more freely with Gods and other deities. It no longer becomes just shrines and temples but itd own mythos.

 

The least Religious army would have to be Kharadrons, which from what I’ve read, are ruled be neither king nor god, which makes them a heck of a peculriality. 

 

[PJetski]

Stormcast literally speak to their god regularly. Vandus Hammerhand advised Sigmar on how to handle the Malign Portents.

The Slann are best friends with Dracothion

[Malakithe]

All of Chaos, a huge portion of Order, a good chunk of Destruction, all of Death...

[Dragobeth]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Stormcast literally speak to their god regularly. Vandus Hammerhand advised Sigmar on how to handle the Malign Portents.

The Slann are best friends with Dracothion

And he pushed  the MORE chambers button anyway

[robinlvalentine]

As people are saying, Age Of Sigmar is a hugely religious setting, where gods regularly manifest themselves and almost every faction is utterly devoted to theirs. It's actually probably easier to list the factions that *aren't* religious:

-Kharadron I believe only care about profit
-Idoneth Deepkin have a sort of residual affection for the dead god Mathlann, but really they just care about their own survival at this point
-Arguably a lot of the Death faction don't worship Nagash, they're just controlled by him, and don't really have a choice in whether to serve him or not. And the Flesh Eater Courts presumably don't care about Nagash at all.
 

Apart from them, I think pretty much every faction would be seen as hardcore religious fanatics in any other setting. But it makes sense in a world where the gods regularly make manifest and even take to the battlefield with their armies.

Is there a particular *kind* of religiouness you're asking about? e.g. the Devoted Of Sigmar are very much modeled after real life and historical Christian fanatics, so they're more recognisably a religious faction on first glance than, for example, Ironjawz. 

[BrAiKo]

You can see more and more the armies being re/released are being aligned and even named  after their Gods:

Legions of Nagash

Daughters of Khaine

Maggotkin of Nurgle

 

I guess they didn't feel that Deepkin of Mathlann had the same ring to it??

[Kramer]

I think more interestingly is it still 'religion' if the god actually lives and interacts with their followers? Is Sigmar a god and religion or a very powerful dictator?

Are the slaanesh followers, followers or worshippers? Or bit of both?

Most armies have their larger than live god they worship and/or try to be like. From the orruks (GorkaMorka) to the Fireslayers (Grimnir)

[VBS]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

I think more interestingly is it still 'religion' if the god actually lives and interacts with their followers? Is Sigmar a god and religion or a very powerful dictator?

I like these kind of questions, I always try to theorize on political systems in fantasy/sci-fi settings and such.

I think it is still very much religion as we see a series of beliefs, practices, ethics, world view and organization linked to each specific God. Even if they are present, there is still the fundaments of practices that constitute a "religion". As for the second part, I think that in AoS, it would mostly be a sort of hybrid. Take for example Sigmar. There is both the religious aspect and the political aspect. I'd say this is closer to a Theocracy, as the form of government will emanate exclusively from a deity. However, it is still a bit different than the real world concept of "theocracy" since this divine authority is usually "delegated" (or so they clame haha) through a particular group (spiritual leaders, religious authorities, etc...). In the case of AoS, the deity is actually present so there is no intermediary to apply the divine rule.

 In essence, the rule of Sigmar is linked to this idea, as the source of authority in Azyr most likely derivates from his divine condition. Of course, since he concentrates all powers (I suppose, even if he delegates stuff, he seems to accumulate all forms of powers and decision), we can throw in that he is a dictator, autocrat and such similar terms (not necessarily as in the modern pejorative concept) as his position allows him to rule by himself and doesn't seem to be ready to give up his power.

The divinity aspect is also worth mentioning as it adds another layer. It makes me think of Plato's Philosopher King. I think this idea is what really describes Sigmar (or other Gods in AoS, probably only Order ones though) best. Indeed, his divine condition will certainly make him a source of wisdom and capable of dissociating from typical mortal pulsions, thus seeking what is best for the "city-state". Even the rest of the society could fit this idea of "ideal city-state", as SCE work perfectly as the concept of "guardians" (military dedicated to what is good instead of individualism) and Free People as the "artisans" group.

So yeah, I think this last point would be the closest thing to describe the situation. Worth mentioning that the Philosopher King was often used as a base for absolutist rule, such as monarch or even dictators real world. Hence why one could consider Sigmar as such. I just think it is closer to some amalgam of theories since AoS has its own concept which doesn't translate well to what already exists.

[Karol]

Isn't faith and religion, beliving in something you can not see or empiricly prove the existance of? Because AoS seems to be drasticly different. There is no religion involved, if you know that khorn sits on his thron 400km away from where your standing right now. And dudes like the Overlords seem to go even further with no religion point of view.

[Aelfric]

53 minutes ago, Karol said:

Isn't faith and religion, beliving in something you can not see or empiricly prove the existance of? Because AoS seems to be drasticly different. There is no religion involved, if you know that khorn sits on his thron 400km away from where your standing right now. And dudes like the Overlords seem to go even further with no religion point of view.

I agree that faith is the acceptance as fact of something that has no proof of existence, but religion is the way worship of a Deity is organised.  In AoS, most of the Gods that are worshipped have proof of existence and therefore do not require faith, simply adherence to the rules laid down by the religion.  As @Richelieu pointed out, the Daughters of Khaine are probably closest to a religious organisation based on faith in AoS.  Most factions follow to some degree a religion, but for the Daughters it is there entire reason for being - to find and revive their God.  The Fireslayers are doing the same with their God, but it doesn't seem to be their be all and end all in the same way.

[Tittliewinks22]

Death.

Nagash is a presit after all

[TheOtherJosh]

5 hours ago, Kramer said:

I think more interestingly is it still 'religion' if the god actually lives and interacts with their followers? Is Sigmar a god and religion or a very powerful dictator?

Most people of the Mortal realms have never seen any of the deities. 

Is Sigmar merely a very powerful dictator? He absolutely is, one with a specific end game in mind. From a mythical perspective he is attempting to have his cake and eat it too. You can see that specifically in the creation/reforging process for the SCE. “Sigmar has willed that I am reforged.”

1 hour ago, Karol said:

Isn't faith and religion, beliving in something you can not see or empiricly prove the existance of?

The “average” human in the mortal realms lives in squalor. Sure, they may get a glimpse of the SCE, but most folks probably don’t ever want to meet them. (Or the Order Of Azyr Witch-hunters ...)

Think of this much like feudal Europe, where Kings ruled by divine right. Or in Japan, where the Emperor was a deity. Even in Ancient Egypt the Pharaoh was a loosley translated as a god, the physical embodiment (perhaps avatar?) or Ka, Of Horus.

Religion is a codified set of rituals surrounding a belief in a superhuman controlling or guiding power. And all of the people in the mortal realm have seen and can relate to these superhuman entities that have impact on the mortal realms. How does one meet the challengers of the brutality of life in the mortal realms? By placing faith in something more powerful than oneself. Khorne, Tzeentch, Sigmar (Or Saaghmar) Nagash, Nurgle, Grimnir... That list is  pretty long ... but perhaps one of these entities will help, or save or give meaning to life ... so those who are mortals plead with these entities which they know exist for scraps of advantage to survive to the next day. And hopefully ... you won’t end up on the wrong side of their machinations ...

[Karol]

4 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I agree that faith is the acceptance as fact of something that has no proof of existence, but religion is the way worship of a Deity is organised.  In AoS, most of the Gods that are worshipped have proof of existence and therefore do not require faith, simply adherence to the rules laid down by the religion.  As @Richelieu pointed out, the Daughters of Khaine are probably closest to a religious organisation based on faith in AoS.  Most factions follow to some degree a religion, but for the Daughters it is there entire reason for being - to find and revive their God.  The Fireslayers are doing the same with their God, but it doesn't seem to be their be all and end all in the same way.

 Would that mean all the non structured forms of worship are not religion? This would make half protestant churchs a non religion.

 

2 hours ago, xking said:

No, That is not the definition of faith. This is the definition of faith (complete trust or confidence in someone or something), it is a stronger version of  trust.  Religion is something different,   Religion is a series of beliefs, practices, ethics and morals related to someone or something, true or not.   Religion is most definitely going on in the mortal realms. 

Well we have a different definition of religion then. I think it is mostly due to stuff like 120 years of occupation where being a catholic or greco catholic was made illegal, and no formal structures aknowladged by the occupation states. Good to know by the way, I did not know about the difference.

[Aelfric]

4 minutes ago, Karol said:

 Would that mean all the non structured forms of worship are not religion? This would make half protestant churchs a non religion.

Well, in my view, religion usually consists of more than just the structure of worship.  It usually also includes things that must be done and things that mustn't be done.  The prerequisite for most religions is the worship of a deity or deities, or a spiritual goal, and people being people usually create a set of rules for their religion, mainly, I think, to give it wider appeal, control over a populace, to distinguish them from other religions, or a mix of the three.  How much structure there is may vary, but I doubt there is a religion that has no structure at all.   

In AoS terms, most factions have religion, but few need faith or belief as that aspect of their religion, the existence of their God or Goddess, has already been proved.

[Aelfric]

58 minutes ago, xking said:

Faith has nothing to do with the existence of gods,  the definition of faith (complete trust or confidence in someone or something),  is just a stronger version of  trust. Such as when a friend would say to another friend "have faith in me".(a little cliche)  Faith is not something that is found just in religion, it can be found all over.

If you read anything related to the stormcast eternals especially the Hallowed Knights. They are all about faith, they even call themselves the faithful.  Even the Bonesplitterz have faith.  Faith Is most definitely a thing that exist in the mortal realms. 

I was only referring to faith in its religious connotation rather than the wider usage of the word.  I completely agree that the word faith has meaning outside of religion, but, as the discussion was about religion, I was restricting its usage to that subject.  My apologies that I did not make that clear.

[Aelfric]

18 minutes ago, xking said:

I know, the definition I gave is the religious connotation.  The Hallowed Knights have faith in sigmar and they are extremely religious, This is explored in books like "Hammerhal & Other Stories" or "Hallowed Knights: Plague Garden". 

I think I see where you are coming from.  So the Hallowed Knights have faith in Sigmar, but this is not faith in his existence, as that is without doubt, rather faith in his creed and his vision.  Being religious for them, then, is to follow his commandments without question (though with varying interpretations depending on the Stormhost).    So, in the world of AoS, where Gods definitely exist and are known to exist, the narrower religious definition of Faith, of believing in a God without proof of his or her's existence,  does not really apply.   This leaves the wider definition of faith, which can be applied to religious or non-religious groups or organisations throughout the Mortal Realms.  It all depends on whether you put your faith in your God, such as the Stormcast, or elsewhere like the Idoneth (or some Kharadron).

 

 

[TheOtherJosh]

Interestingly enough, one might classify the Khorne Bloodbound as being a rather pure expression of both faith and worship.

In this case their god requires both blood and skulls, a very few minimal requirements.... comparatively. And effectively Khorne doesn’t care if it is blood and skulls of supplicants, who worship him through slaughter, or their victims.

Their  worship is rewarded through gifts from their god. And they have faith that they will be rewarded for their worship on the field of battle. Kill enough in his name and eventually you will be transformed into a Daemon Prince, an avatar of the gods will.

Fail ... and end up with too many gifts that the supplicant is unable to handle ... and become a Chaos Spawn ...

Is it classical religiosity? No... it isn’t a SCE type of religion. It’s substantially more visceral. Theirs or their victims. Both are viable in their worship.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 5/19/2018 at 1:03 AM, Juniper_Thornrose said:

Greetings all,

Based on my personal choices and questing for things, I am wondering the following:

Based on the lore for the army, and not dependant on any certain Grand Alliance (thus all are open), which armies or factions do you feel are the most religious?

I know the Devoted of Sigmar fit well, but unsure beyond that. Any help you give is welcome and well thanked for. Also, if you could give the reasons for your choice or choices, it would be greatly appreciated also. Thank you.

Clan pestilens and The masterclan (at least from the old fluff)

[Moonlightwolf]

Probably the only non-religious faction in AOS are freeguild, as they might be aligned to sigmar but the average free guild soldier just cares about putting food on the table for their family and surviving in this terrifying world of gods and monsters. Even the kharadrons follow their code religiously. Religion isn't specifically about a deity it's about following a system of beliefs note that buddhism in real life is a huge religion with no deity.

[Aelfric]

29 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said:

Probably the only non-religious faction in AOS are freeguild, as they might be aligned to sigmar but the average free guild soldier just cares about putting food on the table for their family and surviving in this terrifying world of gods and monsters. Even the kharadrons follow their code religiously. Religion isn't specifically about a deity it's about following a system of beliefs note that buddhism in real life is a huge religion with no deity.

I would say that, Deity or no Deity, a religion has to have a spiritual element to it.  The Kharadrons follow their code in the way that others follow a religion, but the code they follow can't really be classified as a religion:  It is a secular organisation.  The Freeguild are (mostly) followers of Sigmar, but you are right in that it doesn't really go beyond the general acceptance of lay members.  The religious fanaticism they leave to the Devoted and the Stormcast.