Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Thostos]

Noodling a Grand Host list--

 Nagash-Overwhelimng Dread/Spirit Gale/Vile Transference

Prince Vhordrai-Pinions

 

 40xSpear Skeleton

10x Direwolves

 5x Grave Guard SnB

10x BKs

  115 wounds,85 of which can be regrown(not counting the Princes random regens and potentail spell regens for Nagash or the Prince).

 67 models

 Nagash goes full on God mode with Quickblood(if the Prince doesnt need it more of course).

 Provides two huge threats to Alpha strike armies.

 

[Rob Hawkins]

19 hours ago, someone2040 said:

It's actually at the beginning of the Shooting Phase.

I don't think they'd need to errata it to have a missile profile. There are other things that are just 'abilities' that go off in the Shooting phase. A Lord Celestant on Dracoth's l Storm Breath or the Lord Celestant on Star Drakes Lord of Heavens ability.

So think it's a strange choice to make it only occur at the start. I can't really think of any nuanced reason why it should be restricted.

The Errata text says "start" but whatever.  As you point out with the Celestants, there is precedent for monsters' abilities being used simply "in the shooting phase," so it's odd that they'd specify it as needing to be used at the start of the phase.  That only serves to present a "gotcha" moment when you, for example, scream with a Banshee and then try to use Vhordai's breath weapon. ("haha, you can't do that because it's already past the start of your shooting phase!") Ugh.

It just speaks to the sloppiness with which they throw these FAQs together, ignoring legitimate questions that frequently come up in the community, but taking time to clarify that slain bat swarms cannot be healed, when the core rules already state that slain models can't be healed.

[Kimbo]

Guys! What do you think about the Spirit hosts as a unit and where it fits with the new battletome? 

 

Cheers

[Thostos]

14 minutes ago, Kimbo said:

Guys! What do you think about the Spirit hosts as a unit and where it fits with the new battletome? 

 

Cheers

 Used a minimum unit in my Tourney last weekend,,they didnt do much at all but Im running Grand Host so its probably not the best allegiance for them,possibly Nighthaunt?

 They are too slow for what I was looking for.

 

[Kimbo]

Just now, Thostos said:

 Used a minimum unit in my Tourney last weekend,,they didnt do much at all but Im running Grand Host so its probably not the best allegiance for them,possibly Nighthaunt?

 They are too slow for what I was looking for.

 

Okey! Well...I am a bit unsure about them atm..might just hold off until i can think of a.great place for them! 

[RuneBrush]

10 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Guys! What do you think about the Spirit hosts as a unit and where it fits with the new battletome? 

I've been running a unit of 6, normally summoning them out of the grave (which I don't think is the best use).  My own impression with running them in a Legions list is that they're "OK".  The ability to ignore armour modifiers with a 4+ save, and throw out the odd mortal wound makes them reasonable for putting into a more elite type unit or tarpitting a middle sized monster.  Where I feel they lack is a to hit of 5+, which means they miss quite a few of their attacks.  Damned terrain can help as you can take the damage and then hopefully heal it up from a gravesite.

Longer term I'll probably swap them out for either 15 Grave Guard or another unit of Skeletons.

[Grimnaud]

11 hours ago, Kimbo said:

Guys! What do you think about the Spirit hosts as a unit and where it fits with the new battletome? 

I ran a unit of 6 in a tournament a bit over a week ago, and I'll be replacing them with a unit of 40 skeletons for the next one. My problem is that their damage output varies too much. One turn the dice are hot and they're tearing through stuff, next turn it's a slapfight. And the changes to the eteral rule means that their losses starts adding up much quicker, since you can't mystic shield them or put them in terrain. I had high hopes for them going in, hoping to avoid to convert and paint a big blob of skellies, but the skellies benefit more from both the healing and from Van Hels.

[Grimnaud]

So I said that I would do a rundown of the list I posted a few weeks ago and the results from the event. The list I brought was:

Legion of Blood Allegiance

Neferata Mortarch Of Blood (400)

- General

- Lore of the Deathmages : Soul Harvest

Necromancer (110)

- Lore of the Deathmages : Overwhelming Dread

Necromancer (110)

- Lore of the Deathmages : Spectral Grasp

Vampire Lord (140)

- Flying Horror

- Artefact : Orb of Enchantment

- Lore of the Vampires : Vile Transference

Units

5 x Dire Wolves (60)

5 x Dire Wolves (60)

10 x Zombies (60)

2 x Bat Swarms (80)

1 x Corpse Cart (80)

- Unholy Lodestone

6 x Spirit Hosts (240)

10 x Blood Knights (520)

Reinforcement Points (100)

Total: 1960 / 2000

Allies: 0 / 400

Leaders: 4/6 Battlelines: 5 (3+) Behemoths: 1/4 Artillery: 0/4

Wounds: 120

 

The core of the list was left-overs from a list I had planned under the GHB2017 rules, focusing on maxing out -1 to hit bubbles with Neferata, a Mourngul, and the Winged Vampire Lord with the Cursed book item. The ten Blood knights were there for an additional threat and a hammer that was easy to overlook between Neferata and the Mourngul. But with the rules leaks coming out a week before the lists for the events had to be submitted that really gutted my plan. I decided to change the list rather the play it under GA:D, as I would rather have the experience with the new rules rather than a potentially better result with a list that I had actually practiced with, but would never run again. So the Mourngul was exchanged for the two necromancers, a corpse cart, and a balewind vortex.

 

With 11 drops I figured that the chances of me starting second were slim, so my planning was mainly around me going first. One of the Necromancers would pop on the balewind turn one, and start tossing debuff spells around. Which one would depend on whether -1 to hit or hitting everything around a terrain piece with half movement would be best. Neferata would go after weak targets and characters, lending her debuff bubble where it was needed. Meanwhile the Spirit Hosts and Bat Swarms would be deployed in the grave, and the Winged Vampire lord would fly forwards and summon which ever was most useful (usually the spirit hosts). That would give me a 9 inch charge with the spirit hosts and potentially a 3 inch charge with Neferata if I used the balewind to nudge her forwards. While they screened/ tied the enemy in combat I would advance my Blood knights forwards, further screened by the Dire Wolves. The rest I figured that I would make up on the fly. No plan surviving contact and all that.

The final result was 9th out of 22, with two major wins, a minor win due to secondary objectives, and two major losses. Had I payed more attention to the secondary objectives I could have climbed a bit higher, but other than that I am very happy with that result. My two losses were against a very skilled player with a Tzeentch skyfire/changehost list who ended up taking first place and a Kroaknado player who actually took the first turn in Scorched Earth with a Shadowstrike battalion, burning two of my objectives for a total of 9 points turn one.

 

But let’s do a run though of the units, how they did, and what I will do differently:

-Neferata: I knew Neffy was going to die going in to the tournament, and she managed to survive in only one out of five games. That said, her mobility and command ability was often enough of a distraction to make her worthwhile. Soul Harvest and Dark Mist however was not. I only managed to get it of once, healing only a single wound, and with the new wording, Dark mist takes a lot more planning to be worth it. Amethystine Pinions would have been a better choice, but with that mobility I see little reason to use her over a LoB VLoZD who can utilize the Sanguine Blur command trait and the Soulbound garments.

-Winged Vampire Lord: You will probably be seeing a lot of these guys, but in my list his healing abilities were never fully utilized. The Orb of Enchantment was another dud in my list, never being used once. It can be great, but is too situational for my taste. With the new errata, the amulet

-Necromancers. I’ll do both of these combined as the one with Spectral Grasp never played any important part in any of my games. I like the idea of being able to choose which to use on the balewind after seeing whether I get the first or second turn, but Spectral Grasp will be dropped in favor of Fading Vigour. The one with Overwhelming Dread however was a huge asset in almost every game. Being able to debuff units at range is huge.

-Dire Wolves. I love Dire Wolves. With the addition of a corpse cart they can be really resilient, but mostly I used them as chaff.

-Zombies: Did little to nothing. Would have swapped for dire wolves if I had the time to paint another five.

-Batswarms: I am torn on the inclusion of batswarms. They were a GREAT help against a Kunnin ruck and an Aetherstrike force, absorbing shooting and charges that would otherwise have targeted other units. Buuuuut they are 80 points in a list where it is already hard to include all the toys you want. Probably not worth it to deploy them in the grave however. It would often have been better to just run them forwards on their own.

-Corpse cart: A corpse cart or a Mortis Engine is IMO an auto include in any Death list. The +1 to cast makes the debuff spells very reliable.

-Spirit hosts: As I said in my previous post, I had high hopes for the spirit hosts, but their output is too swingy. Will replace them with skeletons. The loss of a save is more than made up for by all the wasted healing rolls.

-Blood knights: They may have gotten a nerf with the loss of regen, but Blood Knights are still beasts, particularly with the extra attack from LoB. They are still relying on the charge, but with the extra -1 to bravery from LoB, plus the banner means that they can wipe units in the battle shock phase.

And finally –The Balewind Vortex: This was my first time using one, and boy is it worthwhile in a Death Army. Between this baby and the graveyard summoning, I’m happy to start first, as I can reliably reach out and debuff my opponent turn one. I was lucky with arcane terrain, and never failed to cast it on a six in the four games I used it (Kroaknado rolled high on spirits and wiped both necromancers before there was any use in bringing it on).

 

Legions of Nagash, and the Legion of Blood in particular is far from a weak army with the new rules, but it is not necessarily an easy army to play. The placement of gravesites and deployment requires a lot of planning, since the lack of large battalions will likely leave us with a high number of drops. Though with careful planning, this can be turned to an asset, allowing us to deploy key pieces after the opponent has deployed (or hidden away behind lots of chaff in cases where the opponent can deploy off table). Including enough bodies to be able to deploy for both the first or second turn will probably be key. What I really love about the new lists is the flexibility. It will likely take me some time to learn how to fully utilize it, but IMO you will only rarely face a list where absolutely nothing can be done.

[Undeadly]

Hey, I'm going to be participating in  tournament on the 10th of March, and I'm looking for some suggestions amd critcism on this list. Also, I am trying to figure out how to tackle some tougher contenders like Tzneetch and Stormcast. Any recommendations or tricks or anything at all would be awesome!

 

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
- General
- Lore of the Dead: Soul Harvest (Deathmages)
Coven Throne (260)
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold 
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
5 x Black Knights (120)
1 x Corpse Cart (80)
Mortis Engine (180)
Lords of Sacrament (70)
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 151

[Sception]

Looks pretty good.  I'd personally trade the cart and knights for a pair of harbingers, to have a something that can hit a bit harder with some rend.

[Undeadly]

20 minutes ago, Sception said:

Looks pretty good.  I'd personally trade the cart and knights for a pair of harbingers, to have a something that can hit a bit harder with some rend.

See, I feel like I need as much magic power as I possibly can get, in order to beat Tzneetch Destiny dice and other dispelling tricks.

Morghasts are tempting, but the major problem is that I don't actually own any. So if I wanted field them, I'd need to buy them, build them, and paint them by the 10th. Setting aside their price, which is kinda a big amount, I am currently working on Arkhan, so its not like I've got a much time to work on them.

[bolderiz101]

wich one should i choose or modify ?

Allegiance: Legion of Blood

Leaders
Prince Vhordrai (480)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty
- Artefact: Ring of Dominion
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference

Battleline
10 x Dire Wolves (120)
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Total: 990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 64
 

or

Allegiance: Legion of Blood

Leaders
Vampire Lord On Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty
- Artefact: Ring of Dominion
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour

Battleline
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades

Total: 1000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 74
 

[Malakithe]

11 hours ago, Undeadly said:

See, I feel like I need as much magic power as I possibly can get, in order to beat Tzneetch Destiny dice and other dispelling tricks.

Morghasts are tempting, but the major problem is that I don't actually own any. So if I wanted field them, I'd need to buy them, build them, and paint them by the 10th. Setting aside their price, which is kinda a big amount, I am currently working on Arkhan, so its not like I've got a much time to work on them.

I agree with @Sception. I personally dont like the corpse cart in Sacrament lists. Way too much points in redundancies at that point. Your paying points for a +1 to cast? No thanks...and when you actually think about it there is no such thing as 'magic power' for Death. You can have +10 to casting and it still wont mean anything D3 MW is still D3 MW. The most damaging spell we have is Orb and even that still needs a 4+ to work.

Drop the cart and Black Knights, add in something with punch.

[Undeadly]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

I agree with @Sception. I personally dont like the corpse cart in Sacrament lists. Way too much points in redundancies at that point. Your paying points for a +1 to cast? No thanks...and when you actually think about it there is no such thing as 'magic power' for Death. You can have +10 to casting and it still wont mean anything D3 MW is still D3 MW. The most damaging spell we have is Orb and even that still needs a 4+ to work.

Drop the cart and Black Knights, add in something with punch.

To be fair, your forgetting about CoY and Soul Harvest, which can do a good bit of work. Honestly, I simply don't know what I'd put the points into though. I am very reluctant to take anything bigger than Arkhan, as VLoZDs have never really worked well for me. 

And aside from Morghasts and VLoZD, what exactly do we have as things with more punch? I feel like so many LoN hammers are so fragile, that I really don't even want to bother with them, sine I feel like they'll just wither under the fire power of SC/Tzn or even things like Free Guild. 

Vargheists are way too fragile, Grave Guard are too slow, TG/ZD are too expensive and fragile and might as well be mounted, Spirit hosts are painfully slow, and Morghasts are way too expensive.

Really, the only thing I feel like switching over would be to use a unit of Hewraiths, since I feel like they are tough against this kind of stuff.

My philosophy for when it comes to Death is that Skeletons should be more than enough to take on any chaff or melee units that are unsupported. Thats kind of their job. Meanwhile, we should be focusing our deadly stuff on their larger and more powerful units. 

 

[Malakithe]

26 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

To be fair, your forgetting about CoY and Soul Harvest, which can do a good bit of work. Honestly, I simply don't know what I'd put the points into though. I am very reluctant to take anything bigger than Arkhan, as VLoZDs have never really worked well for me. 

And aside from Morghasts and VLoZD, what exactly do we have as things with more punch? I feel like so many LoN hammers are so fragile, that I really don't even want to bother with them, sine I feel like they'll just wither under the fire power of SC/Tzn or even things like Free Guild. 

Vargheists are way too fragile, Grave Guard are too slow, TG/ZD are too expensive and fragile and might as well be mounted, Spirit hosts are painfully slow, and Morghasts are way too expensive.

Really, the only thing I feel like switching over would be to use a unit of Hewraiths, since I feel like they are tough against this kind of stuff.

My philosophy for when it comes to Death is that Skeletons should be more than enough to take on any chaff or melee units that are unsupported. Thats kind of their job. Meanwhile, we should be focusing our deadly stuff on their larger and more powerful units. 

 

Ive seen this discussion on the FB group and its of my opinion that the only true hammer units we have are Morghast and Vargheist. Their jobs are to punch stuff in the face and to that effect they do it well. They dont need to be overly tanky. TGheist and ZDragon are also hammers but thats dipping into monsters as well. 

The rest of the units outside of Heroes are all chaff. All of them. If they have the summonable keyword they are chaff. Thats how I think anyway. I do see Spirit Hosts or Black Knights as hammers...they are chaff with a sprinkling of damage.

Lords of Sacrament is a tricky list. I see people try to load up on all this casting but then there is no actual damaging outside of all of 2 spells. I try to build all my lists with threat saturation in mind. Once you fill out the Lords of Sacrament and battleline ive been toying with tossing in Morghast or a VLoZD mainly as a distraction. The casters are squishy and you want to take the enemies eye away from them. Lords + 40 skellies, 2x10 wolves, balewind for your Dread caster, then either Morghast for that in your face beat down or the very tanky VLoZD as a tarpit with extra damage.

[Sception]

Orb is only most damaging if you can hit multiple units.  Against a single target, its average output is less than arcane bolt.

[Ashtyn]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Ive seen this discussion on the FB group and its of my opinion that the only true hammer units we have are Morghast and Vargheist. Their jobs are to punch stuff in the face and to that effect they do it well. They dont need to be overly tanky. TGheist and ZDragon are also hammers but thats dipping into monsters as well. 

The rest of the units outside of Heroes are all chaff. All of them. If they have the summonable keyword they are chaff. Thats how I think anyway. I do see Spirit Hosts or Black Knights as hammers...they are chaff with a sprinkling of damage.

Lords of Sacrament is a tricky list. I see people try to load up on all this casting but then there is no actual damaging outside of all of 2 spells. I try to build all my lists with threat saturation in mind. Once you fill out the Lords of Sacrament and battleline ive been toying with tossing in Morghast or a VLoZD mainly as a distraction. The casters are squishy and you want to take the enemies eye away from them. Lords + 40 skellies, 2x10 wolves, balewind for your Dread caster, then either Morghast for that in your face beat down or the very tanky VLoZD as a tarpit with extra damage.

Interesting views.

From my game experience Hexwraiths and Spirit hosts act as hammers and anvils. In my last game my unit of 9 spirits hosts ate through 30 blood reavers, 20 blood warriors, a Mighty Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut, throughout the battle they tanked a large volume of attacks and i was able to bring 3 bases back over the 5 turns (seems like average rolling due to no rerolls because of no corpse cart).

The Hexwraiths were less offensive (due to my bad movement decisions) but killed 10 reavers and 3 korgoraths. They were wiped out by my opponents double turn which involved all his mortal wound output (2 gaunt summoner spells and 2 blood boils over both hero phases) and concentrated charging from his general.

I think people are severally underestimating the power that nighthaunt have in the new battle-tome, Dammed terrain is easy to find and easy to play around with large units, especially since you can summon the models back prior to the role, or revive the models forward to be in range of the dammed terrain role. They're ability to slaughter hordes and elites is also really pleasing. and Van hels on a unit of hosts or hexwraiths is a joke it just gobbles units up.

I'm going to play another game on wednesday and ill be running 9 hosts and 10 hexwraiths again, I'll repost how they do again after the game!

[Malakithe]

18 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

Interesting views.

From my game experience Hexwraiths and Spirit hosts act as hammers and anvils. In my last game my unit of 9 spirits hosts ate through 30 blood reavers, 20 blood warriors, a Mighty Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut, throughout the battle they tanked a large volume of attacks and i was able to bring 3 bases back over the 5 turns (seems like average rolling due to no rerolls because of no corpse cart).

The Hexwraiths were less offensive (due to my bad movement decisions) but killed 10 reavers and 3 korgoraths. They were wiped out by my opponents double turn which involved all his mortal wound output (2 gaunt summoner spells and 2 blood boils over both hero phases) and concentrated charging from his general.

I think people are severally underestimating the power that nighthaunt have in the new battle-tome, Dammed terrain is easy to find and easy to play around with large units, especially since you can summon the models back prior to the role, or revive the models forward to be in range of the dammed terrain role. They're ability to slaughter hordes and elites is also really pleasing. and Van hels on a unit of hosts or hexwraiths is a joke it just gobbles units up.

I'm going to play another game on wednesday and ill be running 9 hosts and 10 hexwraiths again, I'll repost how they do again after the game!

I totally get that. And yeah its a dice game but I feel that all units with the summonable keyword have a predefined role. Force multipliers such as buffs, debuffs, traits, items, battalions...those all manipulate what roles various units have. Ive heard all points of the spectrum...some times hexwraiths are great, other times they are just a wall. Same with Spirit Hosts...they are an anvil made to counter high rend low attack units, but if you have some hot dice then they can dish out some damang...not hammer level damage but still good enough.

[Ashtyn]

4 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I totally get that. And yeah its a dice game but I feel that all units with the summonable keyword have a predefined role. Force multipliers such as buffs, debuffs, traits, items, battalions...those all manipulate what roles various units have. Ive heard all points of the spectrum...some times hexwraiths are great, other times they are just a wall. Same with Spirit Hosts...they are an anvil made to counter high rend low attack units, but if you have some hot dice then they can dish out some damang...not hammer level damage but still good enough.

I dont thinkyou can remove buffs or debuffs from your decisions due to the eb and flow of a game. 

Morghasts dish out the pain, however 4 cost 440 points, they cant be healed reliably, and death dont have extensive defensive buffs to place on them. In a grand host list they become way better, especially if Nagash is the general. Legion of Night also allows Harbringers to play a great offensive role while being protected due to special deployment.

However 9 hosts will cost 360 points, and can on average dish out 10 mortal wounds, without buffs. they are unrendable, take up more board space meaning you can use them in different roles and can be brought back, they also synergies more in all 4 legions. In a Nagash list they reroll 1's, and have a greater chance or returning, In Arkhan lists they return easier. And they are able to be buffed in all 4 legions (since you're taking at least 1 necro for overwhelming dread).

I do think that summonable units are supposed to be anvils, however I think the Nighthaunt play 2 roles and if your list is built around them you can extend their durability to the point where a debuffed opponent isn't killing them, and they can have a field day.

I will be running Morghasts when I get my Grand host list together and am eagerly anticipating the damage they can cause, however people need to appreciate how much of an annoyance hosts can be.

[Sception]

Because of their large base size, you'll rarely get all of a unit of 9 hosts into combat to cause those mortals, especjally against a particular target, and -1 to hit, a rather common debuff in the game, absolutely destroys their offensive output.  Hosts are good, but I'm skeptical of investing that many points in that large a unit.

[Thostos]

  From what im seeing,as far as hammers in my Grand Hosts lists.

 - Nagash of course,though against some lists you certainly dont want to throw him at the face straight away.

-Morghasts,,yes,but they are actually a bit squishy against strong shooting lists and a bit on the slow side to close with the scource that is likely taking them down.Running a unit of 4  will help against the strong shooters but may have issues with costing out the rest of the army due to the 440 points.

 -Filling the same slot as the Morghasts ,im actually having more success using a VLoZD,,same cost as 4 Morghasts and on average puts out about 2/3 the total damage of them,,however,with the increased save,self healing and extra spells added to the arsenal,,and the most important thing  added speed,,,Im having a much easier time getting this guy into the opponents face straight away,especially if I pinion him.Shield him up for a 2+ rr1s save,equip him with a Baleful Lantern,then this guy is a huge problem for any opponent..plus he gives Nagash time to make his way to their face.

 

 Finally,,Black Knights are actually a very nasty hammer unit when buffed with Van Hels on the Charge..after that,they tarpit until the opponent is worn down.With Van Hels,,the pile in twice part is huge considering their cavalry bases,,it allows for a good wrap on an opponent.

 

[Ashtyn]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Because of their large base size, you'll rarely get all of a unit of 9 hosts into combat to cause those mortals, especjally against a particular target, and -1 to hit, a rather common debuff in the game, absolutely destroys their offensive output.  Hosts are good, but I'm skeptical of investing that many points in that large a unit.

Double pile in does wonders to get all in.

There are a large amount of negatives to hit going around, however when you've got multiple unit's it's harder for the enemy to focus on debuffing one unit. In a sacrament list I've found most opponents are scared of Arkhan and attempt to destroy him quickly meaning you get the time necessary to get hosts/hexwraiths where necessary.

Anyhow when I get more games in I'll let you know how I'm finding the ghosts. The concerns are certainly valid.

[swarmofseals]

The complaint that our hammers are fragile is kinda silly IMO, as good hammers that are also great defensively are basically the definition of an overpowered unit. I think the way our army functions really makes a lot more sense if you think about the way they function against specific opponents.

This is way too much of an oversimplification, but I think you can very broadly break matches down into two categories:

1. Matches where you are the defender.
2. Matches where you are the aggressor.

Note that to understand what I mean by this you have to shake out of conventional ideas of what it means to be the aggressor or the defender. We tend to think of a gunline list as a "defensive" list -- after all it tends to be more static and tries to keep the enemy away from it. Under my conception though a gunline is more likely to be an aggressor type list as it's primarily trying destroy the opponent and then score rather than scoring first and then holding the opponent off for long enough.

Most aggressor lists are going to want to go second and try to double turn you as soon as possible. Defender lists, on the other hand, are going to want to go first and get to the objectives before you do (possibly by deepstriking onto them).

Against aggressor lists, our hammers are not super useful as they will probably die before they can do a ton of damage. Their main role here is to keep the enemy from concentrating fire on your objective holders. If the enemy does concentrate on your objective holders first, then having the hammers becomes much more useful as they can actually then deal with the opponent. Ideally all you want to get out of your hammers here is to either delay or damage your opponent long enough that they can no longer effectively push your anvils off the objectives in time to win. 

Against defender lists, the hammers are much more important. If the enemy gets on the objectives first, our anvils are going to struggle to push them off. Skeleton Warriors can kinda perform double duty against certain opponents, but I wouldn't count on them. Here, the hammers become necessary to push the opponent off and give you time to score. I think Death is going to be very good at getting to the objectives first, but there are some lists that can definitely do it better than we can. It's also worth noting that our hammers are a lot more survivable against these kinds of lists because their offensive output tends to be a lot lower. 

Striking the right balance against the opponents you expect to face is going to be really important and one of the toughest aspects of LoN listbuilding, I think.

[Mikeymajq]

I have a question. All the Deathly invocation stuff is at the start of the hero phase (both from heroes, the gravesites and the Grand host of nagash one). do they happen 'at the exact same time', or do I get to pick the order? also if I get to pick the order, can I use like the Grand host and the heroes first to trail a line to a gravesite to get them in range? (I wouldn't do that but we had that question come up at a game today as I accidentaly got in range with some DI'd skellies and the opponent pointed it out, and I agreed that that would seem a bit cheesy). 

mostly if I get the pick the order I could pick targets a bit smarter and avoid overkilling,  and I wouldn't have to declare all of them at once...

[NinjaDetective]

A stupid question, but if you roll locus of shyish does the opponent have to dispel twice? Im lretty sure its no cause it seems too overpowered otherwise