Warhammer: The Old World News and Rumours Thread

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Tonhel said:

Exactly. 🙂

Also why I believe the legacy factions will come back sooner than later (after all the core factions got their Arcane journals and after halflings (I am convinced we will see the Moot 🙂 ))is because GW is just letting money slip through their fingers. Currently it seems that the community just plays legacy factions as they were core. My friend, who will be my main opponent for TOW is building a VC army.

But most importantly, as that is the most visible part is that for tournaments legacy factions are also played and they are frequently played.

So imo, after the Arcane journals and a campaign book, legacy factions wil get attention. Ofcourse this is only wishlisting from my part. But GW loves money, their shareholders love money and its clear that there is money to be made with releasing old stuff. So it would be absurd that they wouldn't open the vaults and start selling old VC and etc stuff... . It's a smaller investment than releasing a Cathay range. 😉

I mean the fact that they updated the legacy pdfs does hint that they seem to be starting to include them at some point.

from a business stand point, its also bot a bad thing having an army in more then one system

[Jator]

I don't expect it anytime soon, but after the big renewal of the skaven range they could perfectly have two different lines for AoS and TOW. I think VC are in a similar possition, or they could be after 4th edition (I guess that's why rumours have started with them).

On the issue of new armies, it would be very weird to see Cathay before Kislev, who is more rooted in the game, already had some representation in iniatures,  and is directly affected by the Chaos invasion. 

[Chikout]

23 hours ago, Baron I_oyd said:

Greatings warriors of Old World,

the first models coming for Great Empire of Cathay are:

Light infantry- spears and crossbows

Heavy infantry- swords/halberds and shields

Heavy and light cavalry

Hero - general riding longma horse

Special character-  One of the dragon children- similar kit to Morathi from AoS- human and dragon form

Special units:  Terracotta sentinel and Sky Lantern

 

This is a bit of a weird rumour. It's been well known for years that the specialist studio designed a range for Cathay to at least concept stage. It wouldn't suprise me if the full cad designs have been sitting around for a couple of years now. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/14/watch-grand-cathay-come-to-life-in-an-epic-collaboration-for-total-war-warhammer-iii/

The article says they've even written the rules for the faction already. 

The question is if and when GW will allocate the budget and the production window to turn this range into real models. 

[Sarouan]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I mean the fact that they updated the legacy pdfs does hint that they seem to be starting to include them at some point.

It means they corrected a couple of typos with player feedback, that's all.

[JerekKruger]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

From a business stand point, its also bot a bad thing having an army in more then one system

If I was the head of AoS I'd be incredibly keen to see the old Skaven minis officially return to TOW, knowing that a lot of people will but new AoS sculpts and boost my team's sales.

[Tonhel]

8 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

Sorry, but this is the same as the "Kurnothi return in a big wave". The return of Legacy soon than later implies that all the work they are doing right now will be delayed or removed from the pipeline. They must be working in the 5-6 year of the game right now.
I say always the same, saying multiple times something would not make that true, it is like Spanish community claiming for the translation of the Core Book, because they are making noise doesn't mean it could happen because, the only we know it is that the translation was not in the pipeline, and GW works always in a longterm plan.

It is not true that is a smaller invest than a new faction because we don't know the state of the old molds. People is thinking that Old World is cheap and they don't know the reality, it is only their perception.

No, I don't believe that the schedule is set for the next 5-6 years for TOW. I can imagine that the first 2 years are set in stone, but after that everything is possible. I don't believe for a second that nothing will be released in the next 3 years for Vampires. 😉

You can't compare it with the Kurnothi wishlisting. VC already has rules in TOW, the army is played a lot and they have loads of VC miniatures that could be re-released.

To me the sentence the "the scale of the project has changed" means that legacy will come back sooner than later. The legacy pdf's have all the indications that they were done alongside the core factions, they feel like 90% ready and not something to throw Warhammer players a bone.

Somewhere in the project it was decided to move them to legacy. Was this decision taken together with the removing of Cathay/Kislev or was it before or after. Who knows. But the initial plan for those armylists was not to put them in legacy.

The main studio is much bigger and I would be amazed that when they released the SCE Sacrosanct chamber that they already knew that they would remove them 6 years after its release.

So much can happen the next three years. TOW sales can decrease drastically or AoS 4th edition rules could fail which leads to an exodus to TOW or AoS 4th edition ruleset is so great that it kills the hype for TOW. So no, I don't believe it. 😉

Last thing. Resin/metal moulds are lot cheaper than moulds for plastic kits. It isn't comperable at all. So bringing back older mini's in metal or resin isn't comperable in releasing a couple of plastic sets for Cathay.

If the mould of the plastic skeletons (the ones before the Soulblight skeletons) is still in a good shape, which is perfectly possible as it would be a metal mould and not an aluminium mould means it is not such a great cost as you are suggesting. The cost for packaging, boxes and etc.. would be the same regardless of old of new plastics.

Even if the moulds are to damaged to re-use they can decide to make aluminium moulds, which are much cheaper than metal moulds, but don't last as long. Anyway lots of possibilities.

 

[Ejecutor]

40 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

No, I don't believe that the schedule is set for the next 5-6 years for TOW. I can imagine that the first 2 years are set in stone, but after that everything is possible. I don't believe for a second that nothing will be released in the next 3 years for Vampires. 😉

You can't compare it with the Kurnothi wishlisting. VC already has rules in TOW, the army is played a lot and they have loads of VC miniatures that could be re-released.

To me the sentence the "the scale of the project has changed" means that legacy will come back sooner than later. The legacy pdf's have all the indications that they were done alongside the core factions, they feel like 90% ready and not something to throw Warhammer players a bone.

Somewhere in the project it was decided to move them to legacy. Was this decision taken together with the removing of Cathay/Kislev or was it before or after. Who knows. But the initial plan for those armylists was not to put them in legacy.

The main studio is much bigger and I would be amazed that when they released the SCE Sacrosanct chamber that they already knew that they would remove them 6 years after its release.

So much can happen the next three years. TOW sales can decrease drastically or AoS 4th edition rules could fail which leads to an exodus to TOW or AoS 4th edition ruleset is so great that it kills the hype for TOW. So no, I don't believe it. 😉

Last thing. Resin/metal moulds are lot cheaper than moulds for plastic kits. It isn't comperable at all. So bringing back older mini's in metal or resin isn't comperable in releasing a couple of plastic sets for Cathay.

If the mould of the plastic skeletons (the ones before the Soulblight skeletons) is still in a good shape, which is perfectly possible as it would be a metal mould and not an aluminium mould means it is not such a great cost as you are suggesting. The cost for packaging, boxes and etc.. would be the same regardless of old of new plastics.

Even if the moulds are to damaged to re-use they can decide to make aluminium moulds, which are much cheaper than metal moulds, but don't last as long. Anyway lots of possibilities.

 

The problem is that you are thinking about TOW as it would be AoS. Their team is preeeetty small (less than 5 members) and they have already planned content for X years. They are not going to change their plans in order to bring legacy factions sooner just because the scope has changed. The more they delay, the better for GW as there would be more chances that the capacity issues have been sorted.

About the legacy factions PDFs, the fact that they are pretty well done doesn't mean to me that the armies were added and then removed. Just that they put love in them to not lose playerbase and save that chance for the future.

Edited April 16 by Ejecutor

[Tonhel]

8 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

The problem is that you are thinking about TOW as it would be AoS. Their team is preeeetty small (less than 5 members) and they have already planned content for X years. They are not going to change their plans in order to bring legacy factions sooner just because the scope has changed. The more they delay, the better for GW as there would be more chances that the capacity issues have been sorted.

About the legacy factions PDFs, the fact that they are pretty well done doesn't mean to me that the armies were added and then removed. Just that they put love in them to not lose playerbase and save that chance for the future.

No, the size of their team has nothing to do with it. In 2-3 years GW has sorted out their capacity problems. About how and when the legacy factions were done is unknown. To me it seems they were done with the full intention to make them core, but than the decision was taken to move them to legacy.

The scope of project could mean more budget, more more colleagues or lol, just an extra coffee machine. I don't know, nobody here knows.

Anyway in the latest Square Based vid (Honest Wargamer). Rob again said that the sales expectations were blown away. This has to result in something. (Old stuff/nostaligy sells. I.e those older Night Goblins, I find them ugly, but it seems they are liked by people)

I completly agree that the first two and maybe 3 years are set in stone (Core factions Arcane journals and 1-2 campaign books, which will include Halflings (It's just guessing/wishlisting, but I am also convinced halflings (The moot will make an appearance in the next 2 years).

But I don't believe that the schedule is already set for the 5-6 years and if it is set it will include Vampires in one way or another. I think certain armylists will be added through campaign books (Like Chaos Dwarfes got their armylist through Tamurhkan).

Maybe an armylist for Pirates of the Vampire Coast, or maybe a campaign centered around the Mootland, border princes and Lord Harkon (who is probably a Vampire 😉 ) All those things are included on the current map. 

Some seem to be downplaying the optimism here with the excuse that it is unrealistic to think that the legacy factions will return, because it was said in the Warhammer community articles. GW rarely gives hints about what will be released within a year. Let alone within 2 to 3 years. Or the alleged dispute between the two studios. They could be right ofcourse, or it could be that within 2 to 3 years they are proven wrong. Who knows.

How it turn out, I don't know, but it will certainly be an exciting ride! 😄 

 

[Ejecutor]

27 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

No, the size of their team has nothing to do with it. In 2-3 years GW has sorted out their capacity problems. About how and when the legacy factions were done is unknown. To me it seems they were done with the full intention to make them core, but than the decision was taken to move them to legacy.

The scope of project could mean more budget, more more colleagues or lol, just an extra coffee machine. I don't know, nobody here knows.

Anyway in the latest Square Based vid (Honest Wargamer). Rob again said that the sales expectations were blown away. This has to result in something. (Old stuff/nostaligy sells. I.e those older Night Goblins, I find them ugly, but it seems they are liked by people)

I completly agree that the first two and maybe 3 years are set in stone (Core factions Arcane journals and 1-2 campaign books, which will include Halflings (It's just guessing/wishlisting, but I am also convinced halflings (The moot will make an appearance in the next 2 years).

But I don't believe that the schedule is already set for the 5-6 years and if it is set it will include Vampires in one way or another. I think certain armylists will be added through campaign books (Like Chaos Dwarfes got their armylist through Tamurhkan).

Maybe an armylist for Pirates of the Vampire Coast, or maybe a campaign centered around the Mootland, border princes and Lord Harkon (who is probably a Vampire 😉 ) All those things are included on the current map. 

Some seem to be downplaying the optimism here with the excuse that it is unrealistic to think that the legacy factions will return, because it was said in the Warhammer community articles. GW rarely gives hints about what will be released within a year. Let alone within 2 to 3 years. Or the alleged dispute between the two studios. They could be right ofcourse, or it could be that within 2 to 3 years they are proven wrong. Who knows.

How it turn out, I don't know, but it will certainly be an exciting ride! 😄 

 

In that matter, I will take the rumours as true, as they seem to fit the narrative we've got.

The game started as X. After Y time everything changed (including the whole team) and focused on what we had now. As this was done with little time for the release (that was rushed due to GW wanting a bump on the financial record as 40k is underperforming) Legacy factions could never be considered part of the core roster due to that time constraint.

What did the first team do? Do they have enough material already finished (or almost) to release earlier Kislev or Cathai than the legacy factions? That's where the real question is, IMO.

About the Nigh Goblins. I have 0 nostalgia for them, but it is one of those old minis that I find better than the current iteration. And it doesn't tend to be the case.

Also, I am not trying to downplay your optimism, just putting the vision from someone who sees it in an objective way, as I don't care what or when is released for TOW. From my POV you are too hyped for this (which is awesome) but could lead to disappointment lately if the expectations are not met (which I think would be the case).

Edited April 17 by Ejecutor

[Tonhel]

Optimism is a moral duty 😄

Ofcourse it could be that TOW will fade away, with support like middle earth gets, which is not much, but still I would be quite happy. You can't compare the situation with a couple of years ago. Imo, SDS delivered with TOW core rules and the forces of fantasy/ravening hordes. I like the game and I own a 3d printer. Everything that will now come out is a cherry on the cake.

That said, because of the huge succes, I suspect a lot will come, which will include Vampires in one way or another. 😉

+Halflings, there will be halflings. 😉

 

[Sarouan]

Optimism is the door to disappointment.

GW does plan for a loooong time ahead, even more with projects that aren't AoS or 40k. They don't change that easily, because their release calendar isn't just for one game : it's for all of them, and if something comes earlier than planned it's always at the cost of another (see the mess with Epic's unexpected delay). TOW may look like it's on hype right now online (like Horus Heresy when it was first released, or Blood Bowl, or Necromunda, or Aeronautica Imperialis...), but that doesn't mean it will stay that way a year later. See the situation now with Horus Heresy...it's not so hot.

Add to that external problems that may happen in a nearest future like, say, a huge climate disaster in Europe or a war between Ukraine and Russia going out of their borders or Israel doing something even more stupid than they're already doing and provoking WW3, and everything goes down the gutter. GW already has serious troubles with their products being constantly out of stock / delayed / being delivered way later than before, and it's going to be lasting in the future as well because of what happens in the world that will certainly not be better.

That's why it's better to keep your expectations low, so that you're not disappointed by your unreasonnable beliefs and leave the game in a fit of self-inflicted frustration.

Edited April 17 by Sarouan

[Tonhel]

28 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Optimism is the door to disappointment.

GW does plan for a loooong time ahead, even more with projects that aren't AoS or 40k. They don't change that easily, because their release calendar isn't just for one game : it's for all of them, and if something comes earlier than planned it's always at the cost of another (see the mess with Epic's unexpected delay). TOW may look like it's on hype right now online (like Horus Heresy when it was first released, or Blood Bowl, or Necromunda, or Aeronautica Imperialis...), but that doesn't mean it will stay that way a year later. See the situation now with Horus Heresy...it's not so hot.

Add to that external problems that may happen in a nearest future like, say, a huge climate disaster in Europe or a war between Ukraine and Russia going out of their borders or Israel doing something even more stupid than they're already doing and provoking WW3, and everything goes down the gutter. GW already has serious troubles with their products being constantly out of stock / delayed / being delivered way later than before, and it's going to be lasting in the future as well because of what happens in the world that will certainly not be better.

That's why it's better to keep your expectations low, so that you're not disappointed by your unreasonnable beliefs and leave the game in a fit of self-inflicted frustration.

It's not because you are hyped or like something. That you will be unhappy or anrgy when your optimism / hype / wishes don't come true. 😉

In the end it is still only a game. 😉 

Lol, ofcourse the world is currently in a grim place. But if we have to constantly think about that or reflect that in what a games company will do.. . It's important when your an investor, but when you are just a guy that likes to paint and play games. Nah. Not going to do that. Noway I will think about how current world problems will have an impact on my hobbies. Lets say I am more a half full glass guy than a half empty glass guy. Makes life much easier. 😉 

HH is receiving/received a buckload of new plastic kits, so that game is just doing fine.

On a sidenote, which doesn't proof much, but it is still something.

Rob from the Honest Wargamer. His AoS patreon has 613 members and his TOW patreon has 897 members. So hype or not. He is earning more money thanks to TOW than thanks to AOS. 😉

Lol, believing that there will be Vampires in TOW isn't an unreasonnable believe at al. 😄 What is an unreasonnable believe is that AoS will fail and TOW will take over. 😉 Although you never know. 😉

 

[Nezzhil]

I understand the optimism, but it is not to me, I always joke about the Chaos Dwarfs but it doesn't mean I am expecting to receive them sooner or later. It is not because I hate the game or anything like that, I play a lot of my Chaos Dwarfs and it is the first time they have a real ruleset since they existed. 

My point here is that I am talking about the little I know, that GW works on long iterations and the specialist team more. After all, they are working on a lot of games at the same time. 

I want Chaos Dwarfs but I understand that working only making small releases like they are doing right now is not profitable in the long term, they need to produce new things that have a good attachment to most of the players or the game will die soon or later, that's the Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl or Necromunda strategy.

[Sarouan]

Of course they need to produce new things, that's why I'm sure Kislev and Cathay will happen in the future of TOW : they will be complete entire new releases that aren't just old miniatures repackaging.

Vampires are nice and all, but they're clearly not on the top of their list to do (and anyway, Von Carsteins don't exist at the time of TOW setting, so vampire counts are completely irrelevant in themselves ).

And yeah, TOW is really making "3D printing goes brrr", with lots of patreon creators rubbing their hands together with a huge smile on their lips. Can't blame them, a lot of them do a really great job on their models.

Though I'm not really sure their impact is so big, I mean it's obvious you don't play with 3D printed armies at official GW events - unless you really want to troll the organizers and want to know if they'll dare to kick you out when they discover what you've done on purpose.

[Ejecutor]

Looks like we had an unexpected guest in Warcom! Bretonia is back on the posts list (just to promote the transfers).

The Heraldry of Bretonnia in the World of Legend - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Edited April 17 by Ejecutor

[Vomikron]

Would it have been crazy for GW to set the Old World in the alternate Storm of Chaos timeline?

[Vomikron]

23 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Looks like we had an unexpected guest in Warcom! Bretonia is back on the posts list (just to promote the transfers).

The Heraldry of Bretonnia in the World of Legend - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

I like that they’re fleshing things out a little more but I have to say I really hate these shield designs. The frames are ridiculous. Strikes me as if it were designed by someone who doesn’t look to history for inspiration but video games.

[Ejecutor]

8 minutes ago, Vomikron said:

Would it have been crazy for GW to set the Old World in the alternate Storm of Chaos timeline?

As a plot twist would be interesting, but GW confirmed that the EOT happens, even in TOW's corebook lore section they mention it. So putting the whole setting in another timeline would be like creating another EOT. At some point you would have to end it to come to the main timeline, so it could cause disappointment.

[Clan's Cynic]

 

[Sarouan]

4 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

As a plot twist would be interesting, but GW confirmed that the EOT happens, even in TOW's corebook lore section they mention it. So putting the whole setting in another timeline would be like creating another EOT. At some point you would have to end it to come to the main timeline, so it could cause disappointment.

Storm of Chaos is not End of Times.

Storm of Chaos' story conclusion was basically ignored for next Warhammer Edition as if it never happened, because of...we don't exactly know why, to be honest. Legends say it was the players who weren't happy how it concluded in the White Dwarf's novel. Still, it was a fun world campaign everyone at that time was excited to play part of.

[Ejecutor]

10 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Storm of Chaos is not End of Times.

Storm of Chaos' story conclusion was basically ignored for next Warhammer Edition as if it never happened, because of...we don't exactly know why, to be honest. Legends say it was the players who weren't happy how it concluded in the White Dwarf's novel. Still, it was a fun world campaign everyone at that time was excited to play part of.

I know, but it would be kinda the same. Another timeline that you cannot continue forever because is not the main plot, so you have to end it in "a bad way".

[Noserenda]

I dunno, Storm of Chaos was a great set up but it was badly handled by GW once it started, incidents like the Brass keep (and others) which they just blew up when the Chaos forces couldnt capture it and the ending got a reeeeeeally mixed reception which i guess is why they walked it back? 

So yeah, i think it was positive overall but on GWs front line at the time we copped a lot of moaning

[Nezzhil]

19 hours ago, Vomikron said:

Would it have been crazy for GW to set the Old World in the alternate Storm of Chaos timeline?

It is unlikely. You can assume it and maybe it will happen in 20 years, but it is at the level of waiting for the return of the Squat or the Exodite Eldar.

[Sarouan]

14 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

I know, but it would be kinda the same. Another timeline that you cannot continue forever because is not the main plot, so you have to end it in "a bad way".

There's a big difference between a campaign for a game you intend to make another edition and another that is intended to be last ever made before removing said game to replace it by another.

One, you still have to worry about what you write in your background that's driving all the factions (you don't want to blow up the planet, for example ). The other, you can really go wild, it's the last thing you'll write anyway so better enjoy it to the fullest !

That's why all world campaigns GW made rarely made the background story go forth in a significant way, and why mostly everything that was described in them barely mattered in the end. In Warhammer Battle, it was always a bit more trickier than 40k, because the scale of the world was vastly different. in 40k, a campaign could be happening and deciding the fate of an unknow star system and effectively destroying it but not really mattering at the scale of 40k universe. In Battle...even a "small country" like Tilea being blown up was actually a big deal.

It was a bit disappointing everything made for Storm of Chaos "didn't matter" in the end for the next edition (even the special armies, sic), but even so, it was really fun and exciting while it was going on. That's why it's still remembered fondly by us players who experienced it.

Here, with The Old World, we know what will happen in the end but we don't know the details of that covered time period. That's where the campaign will focus, IMHO : in the Arcane Journals, they are already telling the invasion of Settra and how it went with the different factions, but it always stops at a specific point (generally a battle you have a scenario for in the journal). It will keep progressing as more books are released, maybe some events like a Warhammer World narrative tournament could decide of some of these future details. I think that's how they'll tend to be going rather than "wild results from a world campaign without any control".

Edited April 19 by Sarouan

[cyrus]

An what the irony we have already seen a list of storm of chaos in the bretonnia arcane journal : errantry wars.

I believe we will see a slayers army for dwarfs in their AJ and a middenheim army in the empire's AJ.

I can see also an everchosen Asavar Kul 's list in WoC  AJ

So what goes around ,comes around !

Edited April 19 by cyrus