Dealing with new release disappointment and model loss

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Given the Cities of Sigmar update yesterday that came with the news that some beloved miniatures and subfactions are being retired, I think it might be a good time for a thread discussing our experiences with this kind of thing.

From the start, Age of Sigmar has been a game with an internal tension. On the one hand, it is the continuation of Warhammer Fantasy and frequently makes use of characters and plot lines that people value from that game. On the other, it tries to establish an identity of its own, with its own unique setting and narrative. As part of this, the old Fantasy armies have variously been remixed, replaced or even removed.

As a result, over the last few years we have observed new releases that should have been especially exciting, but were accompanied by no small amount of bad feelings on the part of established players. The Lumineth release is one that comes to mind: After the old High Elf kits were mostly retired as part of the first Cities of Sigmar book, established High Elf players and collectors were eagerly awaiting the AoS-ification of their faction. But the design of the new Lumineth was not what a lot of them were hoping for (remember the "teclis longhorns" and "disappointy elves"?).

The lead up to new releases should be the most exciting time periode for players and collectors. But with AoS, there is always uncertainty: Will your new units just be more of the thing you already love? Or will the kits you love be retired for a new aesthetic that does not click with you, potentially without the possibility to keep using your old models?

I think it's important to discuss this topic, because collecting Warhammer miniatures frequently comes with a lot of emotional investment in the form of painting, building and thinking about your army. Even though we might on an intellectual level recognize that a unit kit cannot be kept in production and supported with up-to-date rules forever, it still hits pretty hard on a visceral level to see your collection invalidated.

I am not thinking of this thread as an advice thread for people currently sad about the squatting of Wanderers and Phoenix Temple. We are all aware of it: Embrace proxying, keep playing older editions and use the models in other games. This advice is valuable, but focusing on it right now feels like telling people they are wrong to feel sad a lot of the time. Instead, I would like people to share their own experiences with the loss of models or disappointment with new releases and how they dealt with it.

[Draznak]

In my opinion, GW made a mistake not to cut the cord with WHB as soon as AoS was launched.

Now, 8 years later, we're still in a lopsided situation where no-one is fully satisfied, between those (like me) who want a real identity for AoS, free of the dross of Old World and those who have, as you say, made an emotional investment in their armies and minis since WHB.

Starting AoS was a brave (or unconscious) decision, but they didn't go all the way. So now we're forced to follow a game that's evolving slowly and where every disappearance of fantasy references makes us cringe. As a reminder, in the entire range of AoS miniatures, including Warcry/Underworlds references and everything that's coming out for COS, the ratio of AoS minis to Fantasy minis is around 69%. After 8 years. I don't think that's normal for a so-called new universe (even if it's in the continuity of the Old World according to the lore, I agree).

I keep repeating myself on this, but AoS desperately needs to stand on its own two feet and have a real identity. Even today, not many people are interested in its lore (and it's not by stopping translating novels, because of low sales, that that's going to help develop it... it's a vicious circle). I know it sounds harsh, but to achieve this, fantasy minis need to be put away (or fully integrated into TOW).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Draznak

[Hollow]

I bought (or my dad bought me) my first miniatures just over a quarter of a century ago. I still use some of the models that have managed to keep a hold of. The kits that GW stops selling have generally been available for years. If people wanted them, then they have had every opportunity to get them. There seems to be a strange expectation (which GW has been foolish to perpetuate IMO) that models will be supported forever (which is just ludicrous in my view as the product line will inevitably become a bloated mess) 

As Draznak said, I think it has been a mistake for AoS to STILL have so many of its product lines as ToW transplants. Square bases and paint jobs from ToW are still listed under AoS years after its launch. ToW is bringing back square bases? By the looks of the webstore, they have never left!! 

I generally like change and embrace it. The majority of people do not. I can hardly wrap my head around the idea that someone would be "sad" that a collection of decade-old kits from another game are most likely being moved back to that game. Like, what is there to be sad about? I'm just sad that so many of the ToW persist in AoS to this day. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Hollow

[Freemeta]

i have ptsd from  the squated Dogs of War army (best army concept, some crazy and very unique units imo), (had a book, it's not like it was a white dwarf list).

so i know every army can be deleted just like that (my friends playing Bretonnia (i live in Bretagne) and Khemri droped the game.

 

and i'm a wood elves player and never loved the new sylvaneth, i prefer Kurnothi and Daïkinee design.

 

btw i'm addict to new things (thx capitalism) so i accept changes to open new opportunity (ok it take me 8 years to play warhammer again).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Freemeta

[Hollow]

Ah, Dogs of War.... Lorenzo Lupo is all that remains of my fated DoW collection. He stands shieldless and with a chipped derpy 20-year-old paint job. The merchant prince has been biding his time. He shall be reforged! He will be stripped and renewed to serve in my new CoS army! Long live Lorenzo Lupo!! Merchant Prince of Luccini!

(I like to think many of the DoW characters found some crazy Lizardmen tech that entombed their souls and transported them across the void into the Mortal Realms, they are just now waking up, confused, from a billion-year nap.) 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Hollow

[michu]

My three cents:

• The only thing that stops me from being sad for losing more kits is that they are soon be available for TOW.
• Old Empire aesthetic was much better than new CoS sculpts, I hoped for updated minis that would look like the cover of old CoS BT
• I disagree with people who want to get rid of all WFB minis or their aesthetic. You can't claim that Mortal Realms are vast and everything fits and then claim that something doesn't.

Edited July 14, 2023 by michu

[Hollow]

3 minutes ago, michu said:

I disagree with people who want to get rid of all WFB minis or their aesthetic. You can't claim that Mortal Realms are vast and everything fits and then claim that something doesn't.

In a magical world, I would have GW invest £100 million + into a new production and storage facility as a WARHAMMER Legends department. It would provide an annual catalog like the old Citadel catalog for every kit, ever produced since the beginning. There would be the "current games" of 40k and AoS and with each update, a significant amount of kits would be moved to legends. The Legends department would also do limited full runs of old editions. (How cool would it be to buy a 2nd edition 40k limited edition set with all the published material from that era? Using modern hardback publishing?) 

I am a big advocate for cutting certain things. Not because I don't like them, or have something against them (I love ToW) I just think it is good for AoS as a game and product line to stay tight and focused. People frequently talk about wanting to have tight rules. I want tight model collections, from a visual design perspective. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I am a big advocate for cutting certain things. Not because I don't like them, or have something against them (I love ToW) I just think it is good for AoS as a game and product line to stay tight and focused. People frequently talk about wanting to have tight rules. I want tight model collections, from a visual design perspective. 

This is definitely not just a problem with old Fantasy models, either. The Stormcast battletome has already grown to such a degree that having a lot of redundant and outclassed units is one of the biggest criticism I see of it. There really is value in a more constrained model range.

[michu]

I would argue that Thunderstrike was completely unnecessary. Their design is much worse than oldcasts.

[NauticalSoup]

36 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This is definitely not just a problem with old Fantasy models, either. The Stormcast battletome has already grown to such a degree that having a lot of redundant and outclassed units is one of the biggest criticism I see of it. There really is value in a more constrained model range.

The SCE battletome is suffering from perhaps the most acute case of space marine codex bloat we've ever seen. There's over forty warscrolls, of those how many do you actually bump into on the regular?

And when I say "over forty" of course what I mean is, the leaders section alone has 40 units, and that's when I stopped counting. Since most stormcast units are just aesthetic variations of 'armoured guy with hammer' you could probably squat half the range and it would be better for everyone. And I say this as an SCE player lol

On the actual thread subject, the thing that bothers me the most is that it's all shrouded in mystery. Are Dispossessed here to stay indefinitely as a core component of CoS? Are dark elves stand-ins for free cities aelves to be squatted when they can be bothered to release their Ulgu shadow elf range? Does the long term vision for CoS even include demi-human units five years from now?

[sandlemad]

7 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

The SCE battletome is suffering from perhaps the most acute case of space marine codex bloat we've ever seen. There's over forty warscrolls, of those how many do you actually bump into on the regular?

And when I say "over forty" of course what I mean is, the leaders section alone has 40 units, and that's when I stopped counting. Since most stormcast units are just aesthetic variations of 'armoured guy with hammer' you could probably squat half the range and it would be better for everyone. And I say this as an SCE player lol

On the actual thread subject, the thing that bothers me the most is that it's all shrouded in mystery. Are Dispossessed here to stay indefinitely as a core component of CoS? Are dark elves stand-ins for free cities aelves to be squatted when they can be bothered to release their Ulgu shadow elf range? Does the long term vision for CoS even include demi-human units five years from now?

What makes it all the more, let’s say, impressive, is that SCE speedran the whole affair. It took Space Marines decades to build up such a bloated, redundant roster. SCE did it in 7 years.

[Draznak]

4 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

What makes it all the more, let’s say, impressive, is that SCE speedran the whole affair. It took Space Marines decades to build up such a bloated, redundant roster. SCE did it in 7 years.

This reflects GW's desire to create fantasy-style space marines.

It's their goldmine, so they wanted to do the same thing in Mortal Realms, except that the similarity was not subtle enough and SM's success is not a fixed recipe that can be applied anywhere and everywhere.

[Kempak]

I am currently listening to hammers of sigmar first forged and they do touch a bit on thunderstrike armour and old armour they refer to as the elder plate.

It does seem like they may phase out older units. In the book they reference that it takes longer to make and they haven't the resources to roll it out to all stormcast yet. But it does indicate in time this will be the case.

[Chikout]

14 hours ago, Draznak said:

This reflects GW's desire to create fantasy-style space marines.

It's their goldmine, so they wanted to do the same thing in Mortal Realms, except that the similarity was not subtle enough and SM's success is not a fixed recipe that can be applied anywhere and everywhere.

The irony of this was that Space Marines were invented as a science fiction version of chaos warriors which were very popular at the time so it has gone full circle. 

As for the actual question it all about how long you think GW should support your minis. The shortest shelf life for a non limited edition mini in the last 15 years is the 4 year life span of the xenos planes from Aeronautica. Warhammer 8th had 5 years. 

I think the minimum shelf life of an old mini that appears in a new battletome is 3 years. If that is not enough for you, you should consider an army that has new minis. The cities minis that are about to come out have a shelf life of at least 6 years and probably more than 10. 

I personally think that this is the last cull for AoS. In the future I expect replacements to be like the Seraphon release where minis were replaced by new versions of the same mini or something very similar like the spawn instead of the salamander. There may be the odd mini that falls by the wayside but no more than one or two per release. 

If you are worried about the lifespan of your minis I'd recommend buying an army with new minis and especially avoiding finecast.

Personally, I enjoy the minis I buy for their own sake. I've been in this hobby since the 80's and I've never sold a mini so I have literally hundreds possibly thousands of minis that are no longer officially supported by GW. I don't regret buying any of them. The only sad thing is that as someone with limited time and money these days, I will miss the chance to own some of the discontinued minis. I had thought for ages that it might be cool to buy some tiny  Eldar planes and now I won't have that chance. 

[Edoval]

I am not a native speaker, sorry if my message is difficult to read.

As someone said before, I don’t understand how they will develop the aos story without translating any new black library book. With years of role playing game, video game and books, there are a lot of ressources available in various langages for WFB. 

I imagine people not being in the hobby, for exemple someone playing total war, wanting to begin the game. They will not understand why there are some models they know that are in aos but all the settings is different. 
Once again, as said before, aos need is own identity and the development of the settings and make it available for all people and not only English speaker.

 

Another problem I have is the lack of new releases for aos army, stormcast excepted. 
I am an Idoneth player. Love the range and I loved what they do with the backstory that tied to the world that was but offer something new. 
But since their release more than 5 years ago (if I remember correctly) we had an underworld warband and the akhelian thrall master. We didn’t have a battletome in second edition. Same could be said for other armies like ironjawz (it’s about to change soon). 
I don’t imagine my sea elves being squatted, but this lack of released is boring and if GW don’t show support for this type of pure aos army, that will not help people to get into the game.

 

And I can’t find any rumour of new Idoneth releases.

[Greyshadow]

We don’t really want the game to stand still. New models and armies and background keep the game exciting and alive. Eventually, our new models become old and then finally get updated or slip into the shadows. Age of Sigmar has a rolling time line. Armies have changed in the 120 years since the Realmgate wars and will continue to do so.

I have played Age of Sigmar campaigns against the Tomb Kings and Sons of the Breton. I plan to continue playing with my old Empire models, standing in for the new models.

I get the sad feelings, I really do. I just try and stay as positive as possible and remember that renewal is important for the health of the game.

[Noserenda]

Honestly i think the changes to Cities of sigmar has kinda soured me on the game as a whole right now. The new Dawnbringer minis are mostly dross and they are stripping characterful stuff away to make room for them. Mostly the old Empire sculpts really, fantasy drawing on landsknecht and the like was something legitimately different in the field, the new stuff you could mostly put under a D&D banner and it would fit, its just so generic with a spot of memey "warhammer".

Its a shame, but ill probably get over it a few years down the line, just like the awful Slayer reboot and the disappointing Skaven lack of a reboot, though i am a bit worried by the sculpting direction for humans, the seraphon range is superb, so hopefully Dwarves and rats gets the former when its finally our time. (Kharadon are great incidentally, just not entirely my thing) 

[Gitzdee]

So ill start with my short version

Just when i started this hobby for the first time an just having completed my first 2000 points O&G army.... AoS happened.... i almost quit the whole thing. A friend convinced me to try 40k and i bought the Iyanden big box to jumpstart my army.... than when i just finished that army.... they deleted the iyanden supplement leaving me with no troops and crippling me again.... Switched to space wolves and after finishing about 1k points.... Primaris happened.... so time to go back to AoS.... rules didnt really matter to me but the models looked great....

This time i just started buying stuff i wanted to paint and quit buying playables armies. I have been burned so many times by thinking of this hobby as a thing that stays the way it is. I want to tell u all something. It wont. For minis and rules to stay fresh things need to move forward and change. 

I love my Spiderfang models i painted and i use them for Warcry sometimes but i wont expand that army for the sake of playing AoS. The rules have been bad, no new models at all in AoS, im not giving myself any illusions. Ill be sad if they are removed at some point and if they get new models ill jump on them so fast people wont even notice i bought them. But i am a lot more cautious about spending my time and money these days.

Dont know if this makes sense to u all but its a few of my thoughts on this matter.

 

[SunStorm]

As someone pushing 30 years in the hobby now,  I've seen plenty of things come and go, including new editions invalidate armies. Now that I'm older, I tend to focus less on the rules, as they can and will change. For example, I have my Legion of Azgorh force, that I'm now happy to have as a display, rather than a gaming force. 

Get units you like, go with the rule of cool for equipping things and don't try to chase the meta. Find friends and opponents that will let you play with "Legends" or house rules, allowing you to keep using OOP minis. 

Most importantly, understand nothing is static in this world. Enjoy things while you can and try not to get too hung up on changes that are outside of your control. 

 

 

 

 

[Wraith]

7 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Honestly i think the changes to Cities of sigmar has kinda soured me on the game as a whole right now. The new Dawnbringer minis are mostly dross and they are stripping characterful stuff away to make room for them. Mostly the old Empire sculpts really, fantasy drawing on landsknecht and the like was something legitimately different in the field, the new stuff you could mostly put under a D&D banner and it would fit, its just so generic with a spot of memey "warhammer".

Its a shame, but ill probably get over it a few years down the line, just like the awful Slayer reboot and the disappointing Skaven lack of a reboot, though i am a bit worried by the sculpting direction for humans, the seraphon range is superb, so hopefully Dwarves and rats gets the former when its finally our time. (Kharadon are great incidentally, just not entirely my thing) 

The Landsknecht idea reflects the choice of the early modern era for the setting. Take a look at Albrecht Durer's art style to see where a lot of Warhammer art gets it's inspiration from.

The Italian Wars are a great period to wargame. Warhammer takes that and adds monsters and magic. Modern fantasy, or should I say late modern era fantasy, doesn't have the same aesthetic. AoS seems to be more contemporary in it's fantasy style, hence the D&D like feel.

 

 

[Lich King]

7 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

So ill start with my short version

Just when i started this hobby for the first time an just having completed my first 2000 points O&G army.... AoS happened.... i almost quit the whole thing. A friend convinced me to try 40k and i bought the Iyanden big box to jumpstart my army.... than when i just finished that army.... they deleted the iyanden supplement leaving me with no troops and crippling me again.... Switched to space wolves and after finishing about 1k points.... Primaris happened.... so time to go back to AoS.... rules didnt really matter to me but the models looked great....

This time i just started buying stuff i wanted to paint and quit buying playables armies. I have been burned so many times by thinking of this hobby as a thing that stays the way it is. I want to tell u all something. It wont. For minis and rules to stay fresh things need to move forward and change. 

I love my Spiderfang models i painted and i use them for Warcry sometimes but i wont expand that army for the sake of playing AoS. The rules have been bad, no new models at all in AoS, im not giving myself any illusions. Ill be sad if they are removed at some point and if they get new models ill jump on them so fast people wont even notice i bought them. But i am a lot more cautious about spending my time and money these days.

Dont know if this makes sense to u all but its a few of my thoughts on this matter.

 

you can play alternate rule systems - OPR makes Age of Fantasy which is Age of Sigmar/Warhammer Fantasy with different rules. You can literally use your same armies and have them there - just a heads up on alternate systems. : )

[zilberfrid]

I like changing models, and don't care about GW rules expressly because they are expensive with a short shelf life.

That said, I do think sculpts like the Demigryphs and Sisters of the Thorn fit AoS really well.

[Gitzdee]

4 hours ago, Lich King said:

you can play alternate rule systems - OPR makes Age of Fantasy which is Age of Sigmar/Warhammer Fantasy with different rules. You can literally use your same armies and have them there - just a heads up on alternate systems. : )

Thanks for trying to help. I know about OPR. Doesnt do it for me. Im very busy and it is hard to learn more systems and also find players that are willing to do the same. 

[GhostShark]

1 hour ago, Gitzdee said:

Thanks for trying to help. I know about OPR. Doesnt do it for me. Im very busy and it is hard to learn more systems and also find players that are willing to do the same. 

I get that. I really do. And I'm sure your mind is made up. But this is just going to keep happening. GW is going to GW you over and over again. So it might actually be worth considering learning a new system and recruiting your friends.

Think of it this way:

- You can keep using all your models, and buy whatever new models GW releases that you like.
- You don't have to buy and learn a new version of teh same game every 3 years.
- You don't have to worry about your army suddenly becoming illegal or getting squatted.
- You don't have to spend money on GW books unless you want to read the fluff and look at the art.
- You don't have to deal with random changes to your army every edition.

Of course, there are plenty of downsides too! But maybe its worth considering? I was personally so much happier after leaving 40K for Infinity. As neat as AoS is and as much as I love the models it has been very hard to come back and engage with GW as a business.

[zilberfrid]

21 minutes ago, GhostShark said:

I get that. I really do. And I'm sure your mind is made up. But this is just going to keep happening. GW is going to GW you over and over again. So it might actually be worth considering learning a new system and recruiting your friends.

Think of it this way:

- You can keep using all your models, and buy whatever new models GW releases that you like.
- You don't have to buy and learn a new version of teh same game every 3 years.
- You don't have to worry about your army suddenly becoming illegal or getting squatted.
- You don't have to spend money on GW books unless you want to read the fluff and look at the art.
- You don't have to deal with random changes to your army every edition.

Of course, there are plenty of downsides too! But maybe its worth considering? I was personally so much happier after leaving 40K for Infinity. As neat as AoS is and as much as I love the models it has been very hard to come back and engage with GW as a business.

Also, OPR is a lot less pages due to the base game being one page.