AoS abandoned by my gaming group. Would like to see more QoL improvments for the game!

[Flippy]

23 hours ago, Popisdead said:

1) This may be one of the first times someone complained about the AoS release schedule.

This may be the first time someone is genuinely surprised that people complain about the AoS release schedule. You serious?

[Popisdead]

5 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I'm sorry, but honestly your whole post is just coming across as extremely condescending to someone who is struggling with the game and is looking for ways to improve it. Just because your gaming group is still working great doesn't mean you've found the secret sauce and everyone who does anything differently will struggle. If the gaming group moves on there's not much you can do about it and, trust me, just because your group is solid now doesn't mean it's going to be that way forever. I've been playing these games for... dang almost 23 years now and no group I've ever seen is immortal. 

I've never been able to get friends into the hobby, as hard as I've tried it just doesn't interest them. It's either too expensive, too complicated, too time consuming, or all three, so I rely entirely on a LGS to supply opponents. This has been working great for the last few years we have a thriving community with 15+ players regularly. Or at least we did. I've been on an involuntary break from the game since May, but I popped into the LGS for the first time in a few months the other day and it turns out while I was gone almost the entire gaming group migrated away from AoS to Marvel Crisis Protocol. This isn't the first time this is happened to me, but now it leaves me in a really tough spot. Back in the day I'd just migrate with the group to play the new game, or I'd bounce to a different store and try to get in with a group there. Unfortunately the next closest store is about 45 minutes away which just isn't viable with the gas prices lately, and honestly even though I like MCP I just want to play AoS at the moment. The only real hope I have at this point is people get bored with the new game in a few months or maybe they bounce back to AoS when the next GHB gets released.
 

Edit: Rewrote the post so I'm not being so snarky. Sorry again, I just really want to start getting back to the old routine and playing some games but I've run smack into a brick wall here. Just sucks is all.

Well I accept your apology.  

[JackStreicher]

@Grimrock are you by any chance german?  (If so, maybe we could meet up for a game or hobby talk) We might have a match via TTS if you are from another country ^^

 

about the situation of AoS around here: The club consists of 103 Players. 36 hours ago I‘ve asked if someone wants to have a match today (wanting to try my S2D after quitting AoS): No one is interested 🥲

Edited November 25, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Nasrod]

Few model releases, slow Battletome rollouts, slower changes made in response to dominant meta armies... the entire group moved to 40k in my community and even with me actively painting my Daughters of Khaine at the shop and getting compliments, there's just no interest anymore. 

 

I personally love a lot of what the Gallatian Veterans changes did for the game, too. Every game I convince people to play, it's much closer and they seem far more engaged than in the beginning of 3rd when people were jamming heroes with 5+ ward and Heroic Recovery into an endless tarpit. 

[Clan's Cynic]

Just going to pull the pin on a grenade and say that Double Turn is still a massive accessibility issue for a lot of people I've spoken to who sometimes show interest in AoS. As soon as it's raised or remembered, you can practically see the colour drain from their faces. I know a lot of people here will offer unlimited arguments as to why they think DT is a good thing, but try summing that up to the very large number of people who immediately see it as a negative. "It's not as bad as you think!" isn't really selling it.

I don't think it helps that the lines between 40k/AoS as a ruleset have otherwise blurred quite a lot over the years, which offers less incentive for people who want to try something 'different'.

*Throws grenade*

Plus this year a lot of the hype has been around Horus Heresy, which is in the same, familiar setting of 40k (SPACE MARINES!!!) but is a very different ruleset with a new, competitively priced boxset (which isn't FOMO). I think a lot of people who would otherwise swap to AoS are playing that instead.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Clan's Cynic

[RuneBrush]

On 11/26/2022 at 2:16 PM, Clan's Cynic said:

Plus this year a lot of the hype has been around Horus Heresy, which is in the same, familiar setting of 40k (SPACE MARINES!!!) but is a very different ruleset with a new, competitively priced boxset (which isn't FOMO). I think a lot of people who would otherwise swap to AoS are playing that instead.

I'm not convinced that many of the people who have picked up Heresy are people who would otherwise have played AoS.  You're sure to have some, but generally the people I see playing 30k are people who used to do the hobby years ago (thus HH is familiar), 40k players who liked the 7th ed rules (which the game is based on) and people who have wanted to collect an army but didn't want to do resin.  Heresy has a much more mature audience and is run by a team that have (for ten years now) had a pretty good handle on the rules and what the players want.  That's made it attractive to a lot of people who would otherwise not look at a GW game.

I've not heard many people highlight double turn as a reason not to pick up the game.  I have heard more people have issues with "wouldn't it be cool if..." armies that are perfectly valid under matched play rules - e.g. an army composed entirely of behemoths or aelves that can shoot round corners.  Equally AoS is viewed as a pretty competitive game, which is something a lot of people don't want for a chilled Sunday afternoon.

[Sonnenspeer]

I have ordered all I need to start 30k on Black Friday, likely to arrive today. I'm still going to play a game of AoS now and then but my focus for 2023 will be HH. I think its time to have a break.

[RuneBrush]

30 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

I have ordered all I need to start 30k on Black Friday, likely to arrive today. I'm still going to play a game of AoS now and then but my focus for 2023 will be HH. I think its time to have a break.

Very similar to what I'm doing currently 😊

This really highlights one of the things I love about our hobby in that you don't have to be tied to a single game system to enjoy it.

[Sonnenspeer]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

This really highlights one of the things I love about our hobby in that you don't have to be tied to a single game system to enjoy it.

But learning the rules and then following the development of several game systems can be quite a task (that I feared for quite some time).

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Very similar to what I'm doing currently 😊

This only leaves one question: are you loyal to the Emperor of Mankind?

Question answered by checking out your insta, you filthy Traitor!

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sonnenspeer

[NinthMusketeer]

I will add my voice to the double turn being a recruitment issue. I ran my local AoS community for years, and after practical issues of time/money that one rule was the most common thing keeping people out of the game. Many refused to even try AoS because of that rule existing. There has been plenty of arguments in its defense (coming mostly from people who are afraid they can't win without it, in my experience) but at this point I don't care. It is standing in the way of me expanding my community and I resent that.

 

I have seen a not insignificant number of demo games (not run by me) go like this:

Demo Guy: Which army would you like to play, newcomer?

Newcomer: *excited* SCE!

Demo: OK, so since you had led units to deploy you get to choose who goes first.

Newcomer: *excited* I'll go first!

Demo: Now it's the start of the 2nd/3rd round and the game is still in contest, let's roll for initiative. Oh, it looks like I won so I get what's called a "double turn."

Newcomer: *no longer excited* So you go twice in a row while I just... sit here?

Demo: Yeah, well... [expression of sympathy and/or mitigating factors that go over the newbies head]

Newcomer: *loses all interest as their army is mopped off the battlefield. Finishes game half-heartedly if at all, tells friends about how their demo game was ruined*

 

At the LEAST a guide suggesting that demos with first time players have the newcomer go second and GET a double turn round 2 or 3 would be a big help. That is what I do and it serves three purposes; the newcomer gets to win, gets more play time, and they get to see first hand what a powful mechanic it is without being victim to it.

Edited December 1, 2022 by NinthMusketeer

[Bosskelot]

Yep, the double turn is a weight around the games neck and is actively stymying its growth in many respects. I have seen plenty of people either steer clear of Sigmar because of it, or dip their toes in for a while only to leave the game fairly quickly later because of it. And no, you cannot just chalk this up to 40k players being scared of a different turn order than they're used to; this includes LOTR players and other players of systems that have actually good functioning priority rolls.

You'd think with all the band-aid fixes they've tried to apply to the game that the GW designers would wake up and realize it isn't working, but I've always had the impression that the mechanic is someone's darling and they're reluctant to let it go.

[NinthMusketeer]

Every poll I have run on AoS forums (bias towards those reasonably invested) has shown the number who dislike outweigh those who like, with an increasing margin over the years.

What's extra funny is 3rd edition fixed the matter; person who goes second gets an extra CP each round. That neatly compensates for first turn advantage in a generic way every army can make use of. Before it has a theoretical reason to exist, now random initiative can simply be dropped from the game (along with the FotM GHB anti-double compensation) and it works better.

In the meantime, stats I've seen suggest in 98% of tourney matches the person who chooses first round order chooses second. Don't have win rates for second turn, but I imagine those who have collected them would rather not share.

[NauticalSoup]

I have met many people, Sigmar players and prospectives, who are ambivalent to the double turn. I have met many more who absolutely hate it.

What I have never encountered in person (seriously, not even a single time in any of the events I've attended or clubs I've played at) is someone who actually likes it. It's always the most lukewarm indifference or grudging tolerance. I think the pro-double turn crowd is massively overrepresented in online communities and extremely rare among the larger pool of casual players that make up most circles.

We have been mixing in games without it and the experience is mostly the same, but the lack of a double does tend to exacerbate unbalanced matchups since a predictable game devastatingly favours the better army which no longer risks getting blown out by RNG. I am becoming increasingly convinced the reason the double is such a sacred cow is it obfuscates a lot of the balance problems. Yes, at higher level play you can mitigate the double risk significantly, but let's be real - most AoS play is very very far beneath the level of play at which a clutch double isn't going to decide most games on its own.

[zilberfrid]

Waiting for a turn takes a while, AoS is not a quick game.

Waiting two turns to see what you have left to do your turn with is a lot worse.

[Beliman]

21 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

I have ordered all I need to start 30k on Black Friday, likely to arrive today. I'm still going to play a game of AoS now and then but my focus for 2023 will be HH. I think its time to have a break.

Good job! I'm really happy about Horus Heresy 2.0 and appart from a minor issues, IMO, it's really easy to play and faster than AoS. Btw, what army are you building?

[Sonnenspeer]

51 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Btw, what army are you building?

Space Wolves probably. But I need to dive into the lore and rules bevor I start building any army.

[RuneBrush]

21 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

But learning the rules and then following the development of several game systems can be quite a task (that I feared for quite some time).

I've found the smaller games can be easier to pick up - Killteam, Warcry, Underworlds etc all have a substantially less "chunky" learning curve than the bigger systems.

21 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

This only leaves one question: are you loyal to the Emperor of Mankind?

Question answered by checking out your insta, you filthy Traitor!

They could be loyalist! (spoiler - they're probably not)

[Gailon]

It’s always a bummer for me to see the negativity because I’m finding AoS completely awesome right now. In multiple ways. 
 

GW is a pretty frustrating company, but the app has blown away my expectations. Is updated immediately and really easy to use. The army building and rules reference is fantastic. 
 

the third edition games I play are almost alway super close and thrilling. They have a ton of decisive and drama filled points. With decision after decision feeling like it will be decisive, only for the next one to come and for that to actually feel decisive. 
 

chalk me up as someone who loves the double turn. It’s been debated in other topics and is a bit off topic here. Personally I blame the double turn hate on three main things. First, playing with too much and too powerful shooting. I know this is on GW game design, but the double turn has far far less impact with melee vs melee lists. Second, people not finishing their games. There are a lot of times where a game feels done and it isn’t. I have that feeling all the time with a double in the second or third round and I am convinced that decides the game. We play it out because my group isn’t on a schedule and we are there to play and have fun. An amazing number of times that double turn doesn’t decide the game the way both players thought it would. Third, a desire for more control over a dice game. I agree that the turn roll adds a ton of randomness that helps to cover for the fact the game isn’t truly balanced. 
 

I definitely think that without it going first would be way way too powerful in the current game. There are already a ton of competitive lists that want to go first. The double turn balances this. 
 

new players should very much be told to go second if they have a choice though. They won’t know how to alpha and/or prepare for a potential double. 

[RuneBrush]

+++MOD HAT+++

Just a gentle steer as we've gone a little hard on the double turn discussion, which is one of those subjects that we all have an opinion on.  Although it very clearly does contribute towards both people getting into AoS and people getting out of AoS, it is not the ONLY issue which this thread is discussing.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Space Wolves probably. But I need to dive into the lore and rules bevor I start building any army.

This is an excellent reason to 3d print pug, poodle and bulldog faces and put those in one of those transparent ball helmets on top of the space marine body.

[JerekKruger]

12 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Waiting for a turn takes a while, AoS is not a quick game.

It still boggles my mind that, having the opportunity to write completely new rules for a new game, GW didn't decide to go the alternating activations route with AoS. Every game I've played that uses it is more fun precisely because there's less boring waiting. You could even have double activations be a thing in certain circumstances and it wouldn't be anywhere near as boring to sit through as double turns.

EDIT: I just spotted @RuneBrush's mod comment after posting this, so I should apologise. I will say that, despite its faults, I really like AoS as a game. I far prefer it to 40k, thigh I am increasingly finding I prefer Warcry and Kill Team to either of them.

Edited December 2, 2022 by JerekKruger

[JackStreicher]

13 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Waiting for a turn takes a while, AoS is not a quick game.

Waiting two turns to see what you have left to do your turn with is a lot worse.

100% this

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

This is an excellent reason to 3d print pug, poodle and bulldog faces and put those in one of those transparent ball helmets on top of the space marine body.

It's a bit weird that Horus Heresy's Space Wolves depiction and rules are more tied to Space-Vikings (raiders, shamans, Jarls, etc...) than wolfy-dudes. But for whatever reason...

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

It's a bit weird that Horus Heresy's Space Wolves depiction and rules are more tied to Space-Vikings (raiders, shamans, Jarls, etc...) than wolfy-dudes. But for whatever reason...

Yeah, I don't really get the fursuit helmets.

Pug faces would be much better. Or maybe regular helmet with dog ear headbands. Perhaps a clip on tail, and mittens and loafers with dog paws.

Edited for a picture, because if I have "fursuit space marine" in my search history, you don't need to have that as well:

Edited December 2, 2022 by zilberfrid

[Wraith]

Is that Space Wolves or Space Pooches?

 

Anyway, getting back on track, AoS needs to be careful to avoid becoming to complex and too competitive. Isn’t that what killed 8th edition?

 

Aside from the double turn, do we need both a command point system and heroic actions? 
 

Regarding the vibe, AoS 1 had a much more relaxed community which was more accessible to the novice. It seemed to become more tournament focused in AoS 2. Have we lost the artistic players?

 

The final point is that it is the lore that gets a person into one particular game over another. AoS lore has a lot of potential. Lore has always been GW’s strong point, so I think AoS will do well as long as the world is being developed.

 

I actually prefer the Mortal Realms over the Old World. In fact I was never impressed by the Old World, even back in the 3rd Ed days when I started. I played historical games too, and the Old World looked to me like a unimaginative adaption of 15th/16th century Europe to a fantasy setting. But a lot of people love it! I just find the Mortal Realms concept to be more creative with more possibilities.

 

But could GW promote the Lore and story a bit more? There isn’t much on Warhammer plus, for example. That is what will get people excited enough to endure the dreaded double turn.