Price increase on GW Products (coming 7th March)

[JackStreicher]

From the Deepkin whatsap

p

[Marcvs]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

From the Deepkin whatsap

p

yeah, the increase on the BT really hurts, mostly in the perspective of getting new players to invest in the game when ASOIAF is being played in the same club and all rules are free. For the price of a BT+GHB/core rules you are basically getting a starter box for a different miniature game

31€ for some dice with... a symbol (ohhh) is just lol

Edited February 28, 2022 by Marcvs

[CommissarRotke]

18 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Can I ask what you see as being the four pillars?

 

It was an agreement with Overread yeah -- Marvel and Legion have the ability to do well with logistics because the reach of their respective IPs is astronomical. IMHO that makes the decision to stock them at a LGS a no brainer.

[novakai]

Yeah it does help that Star Wars and Marvel are two of the biggest IP at least in America. You can coast a lot of building up and marketing when everyone knows your characters and models. 
 

though I don’t know if Legion and MCP are manufactured overseas unlike GW who does in house manufacturing. That could also be a factor in product cost too.

[RuneBrush]

I think where 3d printing sits within the hobby is still in limbo.  How many years is it since 3d printing became available and yet GW and other companies continue to thrive?  An increase in access to this facility hasn't changed the status-quo.  From a home perspective too, 3d printers are still faffy, they require a lot of effort, plus loads of clean up or chemicals.  Print as a service is growing in popularity, but not mainstream enough to really offer an alternative to going into a shop and picking up a box of models which is one of the things GW does really well.  One thing that 3d printing does offer is an amazing range of customisation options - alternative heads, weapons, wheels, shields etc.  The things that GW doesn't sell, but allows you to personalise your miniatures and make them really unique.  Software like Blender are also become more learnt so we'll likely see the choices available increase too.

Although arguably flawed, GW's game systems are also recognised throughout the world and more importantly, people want to play them.  My local club has a pretty eclectic mix of individuals - but almost without fail each week somebody will be looking for a game of 40k, by comparison I've yet to see anybody ask to play a game using one page rules.  This may well change in the future, but at the moment GW games have the benefit of being recognised and very well known, which will allow them to continue to charge premium prices for their products.

[JackStreicher]

14 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I think where 3d printing sits within the hobby is still in limbo. 

I agree.

however to highlight one example:

I bought 1 box of Banshees (40K), they‘re do pricy however that I‘ll simply print the 15 more I require. -> Instant loss for GW due to overdoing the prices. And a win for 3D printing.

overall the (resin) printing market gets cheaper, bigger and more easy to use every day. In 2-3 years from now almost every hobbyist might have one. At some point 3D printing will no longer be a hobby itself but a tool to enhance your hobby.

[RuneBrush]

6 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I agree.

however to highlight one example:

I bought 1 box of Banshees (40K), they‘re do pricy however that I‘ll simply print the 15 more I require. -> Instant loss for GW due to overdoing the prices. And a win for 3D printing.

overall the (resin) printing market gets cheaper, bigger and more easy to use every day. In 2-3 years from now almost every hobbyist might have one. At some point 3D printing will no longer be a hobby itself but a tool to enhance your hobby.

I can certainly see things changing on the 3d printer front that removes the faff.  I'd hazard you're looking 5~10 years rather than 2~3 when we see every hobbyist with access to one in some form.  The point where the printer does the full clean and cure without you needing rubber gloves and alcohol is the point when they become viably mainstream.  It will come and hopefully sooner rather than later 😊

[zilberfrid]

19 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I think where 3d printing sits within the hobby is still in limbo.  How many years is it since 3d printing became available and yet GW and other companies continue to thrive?  An increase in access to this facility hasn't changed the status-quo.  From a home perspective too, 3d printers are still faffy, they require a lot of effort, plus loads of clean up or chemicals.  Print as a service is growing in popularity, but not mainstream enough to really offer an alternative to going into a shop and picking up a box of models which is one of the things GW does really well.  One thing that 3d printing does offer is an amazing range of customisation options - alternative heads, weapons, wheels, shields etc.  The things that GW doesn't sell, but allows you to personalise your miniatures and make them really unique.  Software like Blender are also become more learnt so we'll likely see the choices available increase too.

Although arguably flawed, GW's game systems are also recognised throughout the world and more importantly, people want to play them.  My local club has a pretty eclectic mix of individuals - but almost without fail each week somebody will be looking for a game of 40k, by comparison I've yet to see anybody ask to play a game using one page rules.  This may well change in the future, but at the moment GW games have the benefit of being recognised and very well known, which will allow them to continue to charge premium prices for their products.

Especially with GW's movement to monopose and sometimes even incomplete sets (like the new Ork Boys), printing a few arms can greatly increase the usefulness of those sets. With sparse availability in some ranges (try buying Freeguild from GW), it's less hassle to get an STL, print it and clean supports than trying to find a moment when what you want is in stock, waiting for arrival and clean moldlines (and deal with slip). Here, GW's offer is more effort, for an inferior product that costs more.

Printing to a miniature quality standard is available for some three years, before it wasn't detailed enough (in consumer priced printers).

In my local group of friends, I can play Frostgrave or Stargrave, but I haven't managed to get them into AoS and certainly not 40k, and before Covid, my local game stores were starting those games as well (they already had tables of Marvel and Star Wars, but those do not interest me).

[Gaz Taylor]

I always see 3D printing like Homebrew. It’s a hobby in itself and if you are willing to put the time and investment into it, you can end up with some great results. It’s not going to end Games Workshop but some people will enjoy making 3D models. (If I had a 3D printer, I would just be making lots of Epic and Warmaster miniatures, so probably best I don’t have one!)

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Especially with GW's movement to monopose and sometimes even incomplete sets (like the new Ork Boys), printing a few arms can greatly increase the usefulness of those sets.

I think GW are stuck either way as there’s a lot of people wanting mono pose because they want a lot of those models vs people who want the options. I think the the lead time between designing and manufacturing to actual release, the rules and players tastes have changed. However, in this case I imaging the positive to GW of customers having to buy extra sets hasn’t been missed!

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I bought 1 box of Banshees (40K), they‘re do pricy however that I‘ll simply print the 15 more I require. -> Instant loss for GW due to overdoing the prices. And a win for 3D printing.

Just a nudge but that’s not something we do is it! 😉

Anyway, Age of Sigmar forum for talking about Age of Sigmar things….. 😉

[Marcvs]

From my perspective, I don't understand why the discussion on 3d printing immediately becomes a discussion about "people having a 3d printer at home", and how that takes time and effort etc. I don't have one, don't plan to buy one, and yet I buy more and more 3d prints on Etsy, all of them to be used in AoS. In 95% of cases these are cheaper than buying from GW (in case of single heroes, hilariously so), and considering that I don't have a GW shop close to me + the time it takes to get some kits, it's often even faster than ordering from GW/online retailers.

For armies that allow it (Cities of Sigmar is probably the best example), I would absolutely consider the option of 3d printed singles models + big units from the likes of Oathmark as a cheaper way to build an AoS army.

[CommissarRotke]

Personally I hope tabletop gaming as a hobby never requires a 3D printer to engage with properly. It already feels like airbrushes are a requirement for painting and it does not help motivate me to paint... it sucks that advances in certain art techs can lead to divides in what are already pretty niche hobbies.

[pnkdth]

 

11 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Personally I hope tabletop gaming as a hobby never requires a 3D printer to engage with properly. It already feels like airbrushes are a requirement for painting and it does not help motivate me to paint... it sucks that advances in certain art techs can lead to divides in what are already pretty niche hobbies.

I have never used an airbrush (and have zero plans or concerns about that) in my life. In the case of 3D printing, you won't have to engage with it any more than you do with creating moulds or casting process in the minis you order today. It just another way of creating and ordering a miniature. You've done that plenty of times already.

Edited March 1, 2022 by pnkdth

[GrimDork]

A part of me is surprised that GW don't try to be at the forefront of the 3D printing industry.

Maybe we are talking 5 to 10 years as the technology comes along but GW could surely be making money at least by selling digital files, surely there would be a market for official versions.

They could even sell resin & tools for 3D printing etc(all at GW marked up prices). 

They could have 3D printers in their stores to order online and collect from or print and wait service. 

[Kaleb Daark]

9 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think where 3d printing sits within the hobby is still in limbo.  How many years is it since 3d printing became available and yet GW and other companies continue to thrive?  An increase in access to this facility hasn't changed the status-quo.  From a home perspective too, 3d printers are still faffy, they require a lot of effort, plus loads of clean up or chemicals.  Print as a service is growing in popularity, but not mainstream enough to really offer an alternative to going into a shop and picking up a box of models which is one of the things GW does really well.  One thing that 3d printing does offer is an amazing range of customisation options - alternative heads, weapons, wheels, shields etc.  The things that GW doesn't sell, but allows you to personalise your miniatures and make them really unique.  Software like Blender are also become more learnt so we'll likely see the choices available increase too.

you can't get the volume yet.

Until you can smash out ready to box sprues at the rate of 6 per minute 24/7 then you can't really substitute 3d printing vs injection moulding.

Where 3d printing can come into its own is BTO for models where dragging the mould tool from stores, recommissioning it etc isn't viable.  I've done it with injection mouding tools, where we've dragged an archived mould out of retirement for a few off, and had to make the mould ready for service and fit for use again.  it takes time.

The beds on large commercial 3d printers still can't compensate for the volume output required either, and that's before as you say, you factor in all the post processing.  It's all very well some dude with one in his bedroom going on about how he printed this and that, but go ask him to smash out 500 in one hour ready to go into retail packaging and it's a different story.

One place i used to work used to use laser sintering machines to make non critical fasteners and fittings - it was great as it meant we could build to order vs keeping an inventory of stock in a warehouse.

[Kaleb Daark]

1 minute ago, GrimDork said:

A part of me is surprised that GW don't try to be at the forefront of the 3D printing industry.

Maybe we are talking 5 to 10 years as the technology comes along but GW could surely be making money at least by selling digital files, surely there would be a market for official versions.

They could even sell resin & tools for 3D printing etc(all at GW marked up prices). 

They could have 3D printers in their stores to order online and collect from or print and wait service. 

Digital files? - no chance.

Think about it in their eyes.  You pay X and get to open a box with 10 overpriced toy soldiers in it.  They control the quality and the whole life cycle before it gets into our clammy little paws.

With a cad model:

how do I protect it from getting copied?

How do I stop you printing more than say 10?

What happens if the build should collapse and you come to me telling me that you need another file as the first ten failed?

Who's fault is it, do I give you a new file for free or tell you that it's your responsibility to ensure your device settings should work. How do I know that it really did fail and you're not trying to blag a free thirster on me?

Then someone will crack the locks on it (and someone always will), and start distributing it, and suddenly we have the recaster scenario where there's more warlord titans out in the wild that there are produced and sold by Forgeworld.

it's by no accident that on their big stuff they generally say return the whole model when people try the "oh my exalted thirster's axe wasn't very good, any chance of another?"  it's what I got told when my axe was damaged in transit, and they told me to return the whole model and they'd replace it.

And that's before we've even gone down the road of quality control.  With social media what it is today all it takes is one "GW sold me this file and it's a pile of dog log" to go viral and your machine has to go into overdrive trying to tell people that its not the case.

We complain about complexity and fine detail breaking etc, but on the other side you cna imagine some dude trying to recast that on the sly and having a world of hurt - so I'm not surprised if it comes out that the excessive detail and filigree is not only design but also a sort of built in anti tamper mechanism for recasters - where only investing in the same hardware will eliminate it, and if you do that, there's no point.

I do get and understand and in principle agree with what you're saying, but from their point of view it's just easier to flog you ten toy soldiers in a box that they have total control over, from price to quality to cellophane wrap.

[GrimDork]

33 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Digital files? - no chance.

Think about it in their eyes.  You pay X and get to open a box with 10 overpriced toy soldiers in it.  They control the quality and the whole life cycle before it gets into our clammy little paws.

With a cad model:

how do I protect it from getting copied?

How do I stop you printing more than say 10?

What happens if the build should collapse and you come to me telling me that you need another file as the first ten failed?

Who's fault is it, do I give you a new file for free or tell you that it's your responsibility to ensure your device settings should work. How do I know that it really did fail and you're not trying to blag a free thirster on me?

Then someone will crack the locks on it (and someone always will), and start distributing it, and suddenly we have the recaster scenario where there's more warlord titans out in the wild that there are produced and sold by Forgeworld.

it's by no accident that on their big stuff they generally say return the whole model when people try the "oh my exalted thirster's axe wasn't very good, any chance of another?"  it's what I got told when my axe was damaged in transit, and they told me to return the whole model and they'd replace it.

And that's before we've even gone down the road of quality control.  With social media what it is today all it takes is one "GW sold me this file and it's a pile of dog log" to go viral and your machine has to go into overdrive trying to tell people that its not the case.

We complain about complexity and fine detail breaking etc, but on the other side you cna imagine some dude trying to recast that on the sly and having a world of hurt - so I'm not surprised if it comes out that the excessive detail and filigree is not only design but also a sort of built in anti tamper mechanism for recasters - where only investing in the same hardware will eliminate it, and if you do that, there's no point.

I do get and understand and in principle agree with what you're saying, but from their point of view it's just easier to flog you ten toy soldiers in a box that they have total control over, from price to quality to cellophane wrap.

Oh, I do agree there are many reasons not to and many challenges to overcome with it. I don't know much about 3D printing tbh, but how are these problems currently managed by companies that sell files? 

But 3D printing is probably the future (I'm not just talking miniatures for wargaming). At some point, whether it's ten years or twenty or more, 3D printing will be much more mainstream. GW could lead the industry or eventually get overtaken by it.

[zilberfrid]

13 hours ago, GrimDork said:

A part of me is surprised that GW don't try to be at the forefront of the 3D printing industry.

Maybe we are talking 5 to 10 years as the technology comes along but GW could surely be making money at least by selling digital files, surely there would be a market for official versions.

They could even sell resin & tools for 3D printing etc(all at GW marked up prices). 

They could have 3D printers in their stores to order online and collect from or print and wait service. 

GW isn't keen on anything digital. Not even rulebooks in an age of rising paper costs (not to mention said ebooks already sold around the price of paper).

They are good at producing good quality plastic miniatures and having the whole distribution chain.

Both are irrelevant for 3d printing.

While the setting is beloved by many, that can be replaced by other companies and the games they make would have a hard time competing on a level ground (ie without the momentum GW has) with other wargames.

They can also charge you multiple times for a single sculpt, where otherwise they would be able to charge on person per group that cost (especially on heroes).

Edited March 2, 2022 by zilberfrid

[yukishiro1]

GW is so opposed to selling digital things that they won't even sell you a digital version of their rules without buying the physical version too. 

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

While the setting is beloved by many, that can be replaced by other companies and the games they make are subpar.

In your opinion.  Let's not forget this is an AoS forum please, it's a little rude to slate the game system we all enjoy 😉

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

In your opinion.  Let's not forget this is an AoS forum please, it's a little rude to slate the game system we all enjoy 😉

You are right, I'm going to change that sentence.

[Kaleb Daark]

12 hours ago, GrimDork said:

Oh, I do agree there are many reasons not to and many challenges to overcome with it. I don't know much about 3D printing tbh, but how are these problems currently managed by companies that sell files? 

But 3D printing is probably the future (I'm not just talking miniatures for wargaming). At some point, whether it's ten years or twenty or more, 3D printing will be much more mainstream. GW could lead the industry or eventually get overtaken by it.

I totally agree with you, in time 3d printing will be the norm and not the exception as the processes and quality are refined, and with time they'll become mainstream.

I genuinely don't know how other companies who sell files protect themselves, or maybe they don't have any DRM in place, just accepting that the one file they sell will get used multiple times and there's nothing they can do about it.  Perhaps someone will chime in.

Or, as you say they end up wrapping it up in a proprietary system - so their branded printer and software with their media and their settings will give you their standards of quality, and perhaps the model will come in a .gw file format that actually connects to the mothership to get the licence code to print it and will know if the build has failed allowing you to print off another batch.

When the tech is good enough from their quality standards point of view then certainly it's all doable, and would save them massive amounts of warehousing space and reliance on outside manufacturing resource.

What will be interesting is how they approach it when it does come of age, and it would be the ideal thing for FW to use as the testbed given their lower volumes of unit sales.

 

[Greybeard86]

17 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Until you can smash out ready to box sprues at the rate of 6 per minute 24/7 then you can't really substitute 3d printing vs injection moulding.

[...]

The beds on large commercial 3d printers still can't compensate for the volume output required either, and that's before as you say, you factor in all the post processing.  It's all very well some dude with one in his bedroom going on about how he printed this and that, but go ask him to smash out 500 in one hour ready to go into retail packaging and it's a different story.

This. The only reason why so many turn to domestic 3d printing is that while it is vastly more costly than GW's process, GW is pricing it so high above cost that it still makes it wortwhile. I do not know much about the tech for commercial 3d printing, but my guess is that it is still well behind GW's tech.

Ultimately, whether 3d printing eventually cuts into GW's pockets is unclear, in my opinion. If it becomes cheaper (even if it is still professional / commercial printing, not domestic), it might end up fuelling a more fragmented industry of highly detailed miniatures by multiple smaller design companies printed by pro-services. To me, that's the ideal scenario. GW would need to compete with cheaper minis and lower prices, given that quality-wise some are already on par with them.

Domestic 3d printing might get more followers, but I find it extremely hard to believe that it will replace proper mass production processes any time soon. Some might knit their scarves, but most won't.

 

[Kaleb Daark]

3 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

This. The only reason why so many turn to domestic 3d printing is that while it is vastly more costly than GW's process, GW is pricing it so high above cost that it still makes it wortwhile. I do not know much about the tech for commercial 3d printing, but my guess is that it is still well behind GW's tech.

Ultimately, whether 3d printing eventually cuts into GW's pockets is unclear, in my opinion. If it becomes cheaper (even if it is still professional / commercial printing, not domestic), it might end up fuelling a more fragmented industry of highly detailed miniatures by multiple smaller design companies printed by pro-services. To me, that's the ideal scenario. GW would need to compete with cheaper minis and lower prices, given that quality-wise some are already on par with them.

Domestic 3d printing might get more followers, but I find it extremely hard to believe that it will replace proper mass production processes any time soon. Some might knit their scarves, but most won't.

 

totally this.  In fairness GW tech is nothing special, it's the same injection moulding tech that everyone uses, but it's proven, and cost effective to the point of absurdity for the volumes they need pumped out.

With an injection mould you have speed and single hit solution on your side.  As I say, 3-6 sprues per minute and that's conmplete sprues ready to shove in a box and ship to stores per injection mould.  So each mould tool will have a complete retail box kit with all it's sprues banged out in one hit each cycle.

On an 8 hour rotation that 2,880 sprues per day.  Each of the injection mould tools will on average be good for 250,000 cycles minimum before needing refreshing, so depending on sales, probably once or twice a year - and then you're just checking for degradation, which with that plastic on a really top tier production tool will in reality translate into microns of dimensional movement, so back into service it goes within the day.

I don't think 3d printing cuts into their profits, rather more of a child like annoyance to them, but it certainly wont make them lose any sleep at night.

[Lord Krungharr]

Most folks I know use the occasional 3rd party bits/models/bases, including 3D printed stuff, in conjunction with GW models (which may or may not have been purchased 2nd hand.)  I agree that 3D printing won't bankrupt GW but it definitely takes away something  from their potential profits.  But probably only another yacht for the CEO or similarly negligible effect.  HOWEVER sometimes CEOs take drastic measures when they don't get that second yacht!

[Painbringer]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:24 PM, JackStreicher said:

From the Deepkin whatsap

p

Idoneth dice sure look nice - but come on, 30+ EUR for a set of dice is ridiculous. Also, I have realized that I am probably going to spend about 350 EUR just to get the battletomes/codices for my AoS and WH40K armies. I ultimately decided not to buy any of those books - I will be looking for the rules elsewhere. 

Despite the fact that I mostly order models from stores that always have discount on GW products, I still think that prices are too high, or in some cases - crazy high (Varanguard, I am looking at you).

Edited March 2, 2022 by Painbringer