Bout Dat Dwarf Soup

[Fairbanks]

On behalf of those of us Dawi who like would like to get better treatment than those numerous soulless pointy-ears:

No real Dwarf fan should ever be asking for Soup like a cowardly rat. You should be asking for MORE STUFF, not less. You're a child of Grungni or Grimnir, act like it.

[Baron Klatz]

Hear hear! Let kindle the flames of hope with the Fyreslayers and sail to new horizons of possibilities with Kharadron on seperate battletomes!
 

Magma queens, fire spitters, demidroth cavalry, Gigadroth super unit, living volcanoes, dancing fire elementals, Kharadron super ships, aetheric mine-layers, shield ships, sniper squads with x-ray lenses(suck it Lumineth birb hacks), the steampunk bi-planes they broke Belakor’s siege with.

There’s tons of glorious stuff there to fill out both tomes and stand up to the aelven tome horde! No more hiding in scrunched up caverns, it’s time for vast empires stretching across the skies and lava lands watched over by two shining tomes And More! Seperate Grungni Gholemkin book AND a Rootking tome of the Realm of Life Druid duardin with their wooden armored armies and soulpod forged weapons!  

Edited January 28, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Noserenda]

Dwarf soup would be fine, Kharadons and Dispossessed sailing shiny and chrome. 

Just dont sully it with those Unbaraki who sully Grimnirs name.

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, Fairbanks said:

On behalf of those of us Dawi who like would like to get better treatment than those numerous soulless pointy-ears:

No real Dwarf fan should ever be asking for Soup like a cowardly rat. You should be asking for MORE STUFF, not less. You're a child of Grungni or Grimnir, act like it.

Give that man a Bugman's XXXXXX!

[Doko]

So  you preffer:

get nerfed into the uselessness as fyreslayers got

Got 0 new units

Got 0 new tomes

Before get a soup tome:

New tome with many new units(fyreslayers+ko+dispossesed so every faction get two new factions of extra units)

 

Also better get a soup tome with only 1\3 of new lore before than the actual nothing without new tomes for any dwarf.

 

I really dont get it 

[Baron Klatz]

15 minutes ago, Doko said:

So  you preffer:

get nerfed into the uselessness as fyreslayers got

Got 0 new units

Got 0 new tomes

Before get a soup tome:

New tome with many new units(fyreslayers+ko+dispossesed so every faction get two new factions of extra units)

 

Also better get a soup tome with only 1\3 of new lore before than the actual nothing without new tomes for any dwarf.

 

I really dont get it 

See that’s the defeatism he’s talking about.

Fair enough if you’re okay with it but others want more than “okay here’s your new Kharadron ship & blimp hero that also counts as the only thing either Fyreslayers or Dispossessed get for the next year or two and we only gave abilities that benefitted Kharadron units. Coalition variety? Nah, gotta sort out battlelines and keywords in the Duardin Waaagh for minimal mixing.”

Big beautiful tomes and proper unit lines along with sweet new Coalition + ally rules are definitely the way to go compared to what Warclans look like.

[Doko]

Or a soup as vampires and citys got.

[Baron Klatz]

The rules are so watered down now in 3.0 and nerfs plentiful you can see the Soulblight thread is terrified of a new tome replacing the  rules-heavy one 2nd edition gave them.

It’s super not likely to be anywhere that good unless the next tome wave is meatier than we got so far.

No, that’s just wanting a bare-minimum bandage on a gaping wound. Full fledged tomes would solve all the problems and promise more support for each faction.

[Doko]

As i said,betwen tomes for ko and fs vs soup tome i preffer not soup.

But betwen no new tomes vs soup tome i preffer the soup.

I havent orcs,but i have citys and vampires and these are my favourite armys to play.

Soup gives me so much options and fun that i dont know because someone dont wanna a soup of disspos,fs and ko that gonna be a blast to play.

I get the reason that the lore and pics are 1\3 but if the tome would have 150+ pages and not the actual 90 of 2.0 books? Also get souped dont mean nothing new,vampires got many new kits and orcs got a entire new subfaction of models.

Of course a bad soup tome vs good single tomes is bad,but a good soup tome vs no book or bad books? I would prefer the good soup

[Baron Klatz]

3 minutes ago, Doko said:

that i dont know because someone dont wanna a soup of disspos,fs and ko that gonna be a blast to play.

They COULD be but like you said, you don’t know the raw deal Orruks got by soup(and lesser extent Ogors & Gloomspite that don’t synergize the sub-factions so they’re forced to fight individually anyway)

Like if we can get a cool mini-campaign(with accompanying campaign book) to tell the story of why the soup happened and then a Good fleshed out Tome then I’d be alright with it too.

However with 3.0 I’m especially wanting full seperate tomes because they can play with the new coalition rules better and promise more support for that faction.

Hopefully that’s partly why they separated the  Vulkites into two warscrolls so it’ll justify them filling out a tome with even artificial unit choices on top of a few new releases to get Fyreslayers really cooking.

[Ganigumo]

24 minutes ago, Doko said:

So  you preffer:

get nerfed into the uselessness as fyreslayers got

Got 0 new units

Got 0 new tomes

Before get a soup tome:

New tome with many new units(fyreslayers+ko+dispossesed so every faction get two new factions of extra units)

 

Also better get a soup tome with only 1\3 of new lore before than the actual nothing without new tomes for any dwarf.

 

I really dont get it 

A new solo tome could mean literally nothing of those things. 

Your new solo tome can be competitively weak/garbage (see slaanesh/khorne/BoC)

Your soup tome can be competitively strong (see warclans, cities, Soulblight)
Your new solo tome probably won't come with a big release. The game has 24 battletomes at the moment, during the entirely of 2e we only saw Lumineth, Stormcast, Slaanesh, OBR, Nighthaunt, Gargants, soulblight and Gitz get a significant model release (~1/3rd, roughly 4 armies per year) so the majority of releases were solo battletomes without a big release.

Your soup tome can come with a model release (see gitz/Soulblight)

It being a soup tome has literally ZERO bearing on the quality of the book or the release. Sure you probably get less lore dedicated to the faction of your choice in the battletome, but don't conflate soup with bad rules or lack of model releases.

Some amount of armies need to either not get a release period, or get just a battletome with no significant model releases during an edition. Its just the reality of the situation. Soup means they can better fit the rules updates for every faction into an edition's release schedule. 

I'm not saying you need to like that an army gets souped, or that the apparent fyreslayer nerfs are justified (it feels like it was written with 2e in mind) but understand that the alternative isn't significant support for your army, its less support for it.

Maybe I'm just conditioned from years of playing and watching stuff get squatted though, not getting a tome in an edition was often a bad sign.
 

9 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

The rules are so watered down now in 3.0 and nerfs plentiful you can see the Soulblight thread is terrified of a new tome replacing the  rules-heavy one 2nd edition gave them.

It’s super not likely to be anywhere that good unless the next tome wave is meatier than we got so far.

No, that’s just wanting a bare-minimum bandage on a gaping wound. Full fledged tomes would solve all the problems and promise more support for each faction.

3e's design is entirely backwards. Simple rules with complexity in the tomes (like in 2e) is just a better design than 3e's complex rules and simple battletomes. since with the former design the player can control the complexity of their game by choosing a less complex army.
Their solution half the time seems to be to just remove rules from warscrolls with no compensation, put one or two of them in the allegiance abilities page and call it a day. Thats what happened to bonesplitterz, and what might be happening to fyreslayers. Sometimes they do a good job, like with ironjawz though, where they actually think through the changes, although ironjawz had simple warscrolls to start with.

 

 

1 minute ago, Baron Klatz said:

They COULD be but like you said, you don’t know the raw deal Orruks got by soup(and lesser extent Ogors & Gloomspite that don’t synergize the sub-factions so they’re forced to fight individually anyway)

As a player of both those armies I was pretty happy with those books existing, for no other reason than it meant those factions weren't getting squatted, Ogors were looking pretty suspect for a squatting for quite a while, with no tome through 1e, a big part of 2e, and not even getting GHB allegiance support. Greenskinz and Gitmob didn't survive the souping.

 

Also kind of related to the topic at large, we've seen potential fyreslayer nerfs, but are assuming KO will be just as strong. I'm not so sure, if this potential book was written during 2e (which I suspect it was) KO would've been at the height of their game, and possibly viewed as due for a nerf by the devs, despite them being in a pretty healthy spot at the moment.

[Baron Klatz]

13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

for no other reason than it meant those factions weren't getting squatted,

Soup and defeatism, name a more iconic duo.  

13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

but are assuming KO will be just as strong. I'm not so sure, if this potential book was written during 2e (which I suspect it was) KO would've been at the height of their game, and possibly viewed as due for a nerf by the devs, despite them being in a pretty healthy spot at the moment.

Yeah, getting those airships and Sky-port subfactions watered down would hit hard against them. And I absolutely believe Disposessed(if they even get included) have that nerf bat hanging over them as both a Bonesplitterz situation and that stuff like Irondrakes have more rules than most two 3.0 warscrolls combined.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[madmac]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

So  you preffer:

get nerfed into the uselessness as fyreslayers got

Got 0 new units

Got 0 new tomes

Before get a soup tome:

New tome with many new units(fyreslayers+ko+dispossesed so every faction get two new factions of extra units)

 

Also better get a soup tome with only 1\3 of new lore before than the actual nothing without new tomes for any dwarf.

 

I really dont get it 

Getting souped doesn't preclude getting terrible rules and no models, if anything it makes it more likely to happen. If I wanted to not play Fyreslayers, I can already do that without a soup tome, it's that simple really.

Also, this whole "At least you're not squatted!" angle I super don't get in general. First of all, it's not a given that the only option was souping or death, that's a false choice. Secondly, souping does not take future squatting off the table, not at all. Ask any Bonesplitta player how secure they feel about their armies future right now, or any random Cities subfaction about their chances for dedicated long term support. If anything souping is the easy first step to squatting an army. In the same way soup allows your "army" to get supported with "new models" that are actually totally walled off subfactions you'll never play, it also makes Squatting so much easier. After all, GW isn't "squatting" an army at that point. They're just, you know, "consolidating options and trimming a few poorer selling skues" You can still absolutely play your Orruk Warclans army without Bonesplittas, yay!

Edited January 28, 2022 by madmac

[Skreech Verminking]

40 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Soup and defeatism, name a more iconic duo.  

Yeah, getting those airships and Sky-port subfactions watered down would hit hard against them. And I absolutely believe Disposessed(if they even get included) have that nerf bat hanging over them as both a Bonesplitterz situation and that stuff like Irondrakes have more rules than most two 3.0 warscrolls combined.

Pretty much all competitive lumineth player really must be fearing for their next lumineth battletome.

can’t see all of those units keeping their gamebreaking mechanics with the last few updates we’ve seen😝

Edited January 28, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[Baron Klatz]

11 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Pretty much all competitive lumineth player really must be fearing for their next lumineth battletome.

can’t see all of those units keeping their gamebreaking mechanics with the last few updates we’ve seen😝

At least it’ll be on brand for the River Temple to water them down.  

[amysrevenge]

I'd be fine sipping some of that soup.

"Waiter, there's no beard hair in my soup!"

"I'm so sorry sir, let me replace that watery abomination right away."

[mojojojo101]

I mean my biggest issue with Dwarf soup is that, aside from being Duardin, KO, Fyreslayers and Dispossesed really have absolutely nothing in common.

They are stylistically very different, they are culturally and ideologically very different, they fight very differently both on the tabletop and in the lore and really the only thing that would be pinning them together would be Grugni/Grombindal telling them to.

 

 

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Soup and defeatism, name a more iconic duo.  

I wouldn't say that myself. Aos1 was kind of chaotic and them just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it would stick. AoS2 they went into with a proper plan, squatted what didn't work or they didn't want, and started consolidating what they wanted to keep around.
Consolidation will continue in aos 3, mostly to help keep the armies up to date ruleswise, because 24 tomes in 36 months is already a lot (at this point we need 21 in 30 months... and don't have any announced) and doesn't leave much room for supplements/campaigns, but we're also expecting new armies. Also because aos made the design decision to focus on small, highly thematic armies, as opposed to the grand diverse forces of wfb (which is something I like about it).

Short of GW going fully digital for rules, soup is the realistic solution to the logistical problem of having so many armies in the game. 

[Kaleb Daark]

2 hours ago, mojojojo101 said:

really the only thing that would be pinning them together would be Grugni/Grombindal telling them to.

I think that’s probably good enough for the tome de soup to get going with.

other way of looking at it is that each of them have very little in the way of options so just print it all in the one book and save on costs.

you might find that even though they’re under one cover, they all remain quite separate.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Kaleb Daark

[Baron Klatz]

15 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

I think that’s probably good enough for the tome de soup to get going with.

 

Not without a campaign at least or a few combined stories to actually explain why it happened.

As is their efforts haven’t got the groups to agree on joining forces. Broken Realms built a bit towards it but then that build-up dispersed as Grombi was no where to be seen and Grungni hopped over to Azyr to help Sigmar and then had a White Dwarf story show him watching his people from a far and being impressed by their feats without him.

And then we have the Corebook and current lore showing they’re still divided and even have instances of attacking eachother over their magic golds or depending which side of a in-debt Dawner party they’re on.

If we get a campaign lead-up, Grungni and a new large force of mecha & Fyre mixed duardin that practically turn them into a new army of sci-fi pyromaniacs that control the skies and lava veins below so they can practically forge new lands, flying continents and even sub-realms(that is actually something Grungni taught the duardin to make artificial realms) then more than fine. That’s all badass and builds on new narratives while playing to their strengths an unique armies.

But just throwing in a white bearded hero with off-hand soup and calling it a day?  Nope. Won’t be happy about that and would vastly prefer different tomes to continue fleshing them out.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Kaleb Daark]

6 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Not without a campaign at least or a few combined stories to actually explain why it happened.

As is their efforts haven’t got the groups to agree on joining forces. Broken Realms built a bit towards it but then that build-up dispersed as Grombi was no where to be seen and Grungni hopped over to Azyr to help Sigmar and then had a White Dwarf story show him watching his people from a far and being impressed by their feats without him.

And then we have the Corebook and current lore showing they’re still divided and even have instances of attacking eachother over their magic golds or depending which side of a in-debt Dawner party they’re on.

If we get a campaign lead-up, Grungni and a new large force of mecha & Fyre mixed duardin that practically turn them into a new army of sci-fi pyromaniacs that control the skies and lava veins below so they can practically forge new lands, flying continents and even sub-realms(that is actually something Grungni taught the duardin to make artificial realms) then more than fine. That’s all badass and builds on new narratives while playing to their strengths an unique armies.

But just throwing in a white bearded hero with off-hand soup and calling it a day?  Nope. Won’t be happy about that and would vastly prefer different tomes to continue fleshing them out.

Totally agree, but I’m thinking from their perspective. Its a short term easy solution at the moment.

easier currently to bang out lore and a book than to bang out models if push comes to shove.

[Baron Klatz]

Well hopefully that’s why they didn’t get even a mention in this reveal so they have more time for a big release down the road, be it a new godly army or those Fyreslayers in March rumors I cling to like a ur-gold tattoo.  

[Doko]

4 hours ago, mojojojo101 said:

I mean my biggest issue with Dwarf soup is that, aside from being Duardin, KO, Fyreslayers and Dispossesed really have absolutely nothing in common.

They are stylistically very different, they are culturally and ideologically very different, they fight very differently both on the tabletop and in the lore and really the only thing that would be pinning them together would be Grugni/Grombindal telling them to.

 

 

Dispossesed,free people,dark elfs,high elfs etc had less in comon than the dwarfs and got souped.

Reason?dwarfs to be builders per example

So if these factions could be mixed,then every other faction can be

And also i heard many times as is imposible soup,when every dwarf have(or dont have god)diferents gods but; dispossesed have valaya as god,high elf have other god,dark elf have also others gods etc and all are together,be souped dont mean every model in the soup have the same lore and god.

Also orcs than i dont know too much,but kruelboyz are gorko? And ironjawz are morko? So again diferents gods in same soup.

So i dont see any problem in a soup with dispossesed,fyreslayers and ko and every faction remain their gods and lore.

But the topic is useless,the people wanting soup due to have more options and be funnier to play wont change their opinion as the people against soup wont change their opinion also

Edited January 28, 2022 by Doko

[Baron Klatz]

35 minutes ago, Doko said:

Dispossesed,free people,dark elfs,high elfs etc had less in comon than the dwarfs and got souped.

Tbf here they were together since AoS1 and the first Grand Alliance Order Book. That’s even what Freeguild means, “mortals” working together which includes any race and the first Order built had a lot of examples of this besides Ironweld with Stonebreaker battalions being humans, dispossessed and Stormcast that destroy fortifications and the Azyrheim Lancehost being human and aelven knights of every variety riding together.

Point being there was a lot of build-up and tons of examples for it like “Hammerhal and Other Stories” & “Red Hour” focusing on Freeguild guards comprised of each main race. They had been together since the get-go.

41 minutes ago, Doko said:

Also orcs than i dont know too much,but kruelboyz are gorko? And ironjawz are morko? So again diferents gods in same soup.

This is a big lore oof. You mixed them up but also Gorkamorka is one god that occasionally splits apart to bicker before forming back together again to symbolize a Waaagh.  
 

44 minutes ago, Doko said:

But the topic is useless

I mean the topic was just for us anti-soup people to celebrate we’re not doomed yet and hope for much more on the aethergold horizon. It’s not an actual argument thread but a hype thread of what we want from individual tomes.
 

There was no need to try and spoil our fun as it is up to GW in the end. We’re just hoping they put maximum effort into it than shrug and say “as long as it gets tournament wins”. We want fleshed out flavor and lore.

[zilberfrid]

Souping dwarves would be the first instance of souping two made for AoS armies, and losing the only godless faction (because GW will puke religion all over it).

Pointing to the swamp orcs as a model release for Ironjawz or Bonesplitters is weird, because they are neither Ironjawz nor Bonesplitters.

Grungni can't get the dwarves together, had his chance and failed his people, and they outgrew him. He could head off the Disposessed and Ironweld and grow them into a faction, but the Fyreslayers aren't hammering bits of Grungni in their bodies either. Neither is a dwarf Jesus more than a cop out.

Plus, the backs of Kharadron are broad and their ships strong, but strong enough to carry the sales of Fyreslayers and what remains of Fantasy dwarves? I'm not sure.

If there can be 495 elven factions, 3 dwarven isn't too much to ask.