Please don't sign up for Warhammer+

[DynamicCalories]

12 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

no fullscreen on animations.

Not sure about the apps as I haven’t used them, but double clicking the video or pressing F11 will full screen the videos in browser, like most other streaming services. 

[Blitzd]

On 8/25/2021 at 3:03 AM, Lord Veshnakar said:

This whole anti WH+ movement has the same flavor as people who get upset about paid DLC. You can obviously do what you want with all due respect, and I will too. 

 

I don't agree with this comparison, it would be more like if you had DLC for a game and the company took it away, packaged it with the dlc of their other game you may or may not play for a significant increase in price, delayed re-releasing of the dlc, and when they release it, it may or may not even be in a usable state considering the comparative dlc from their other game was released 12 months ago and still is only just usable. 

 

I play 40k on and off and the app is not worth playing wh+ for. 

 

Hell, I would have been fine - note, not happy, but lived with it, if they just put the current app into wh+, but they have destroyed the wheel, are trying to rebuild the wheel, and while they are notorious for not being able to build functioning wheels. 

 

I am hopeful the app works available I'll begrudgingly pay for it if we can keep getting digital battletomes, but I don't see any reason to not just stick with the warscroll builder website at this point. I was even considering getting a year pass just for the free model, but it looks like that won't be going out to people for 12 months even with a yearly sub

[RuneBrush]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:33 PM, Clan's Cynic said:

Not shouting insults and replying in a constructive, long-form essay is obviously nicer, but ultimately volume matters more than anything. If a thousand people spam GW's social media with offence and frustration using vulgar language, it's probably going to be taken more seriously than ten people writing out extensive pages of well-researched and formatted arguments and ending with "but I still love your products and will continue to buy from you because I care!"

Look at the whole debacle about pre-orders. Would they have made the same promise if there weren't so many people shouting and complaining angrily on every Twitch stream and Facebook post? Probably not.

Granted, complaining on TGA - whether angrily or constructively -  won't do much either beyond perhaps giving people a chance to voice those frustrations (which is also healthy imo), but the idea that not doggy piling a company on their public-facing social media won't do anything is, I think, a bit naïve. Voicing those frustrations, whether well articulated or quite the opposite, does make an impact... so long as you're not alone in voicing them and are posting them directly to the company.

Just my thoughts.

On 8/28/2021 at 7:38 AM, Kadeton said:

Agreed. Polite and constructive discourse is only effective after the problem is acknowledged and a genuine commitment is made to address it. Getting to that point, especially when the other party is doing everything they can to deny that a problem exists, is extremely difficult to do quietly.

One of the things I find on social media is that people seem to have lost the ability to communicate their dissatisfaction in a non-offensive manner.  As @Overread quite rightly says, if somebody comes up to you shouting and ranting you're a lot less likely to listen to their opinion.  It's really hard to form an argument if you're angry too, because you're letting the reactionary part of the brain do the talking and not the rational part.  That's fine if somebody if you've narrowly missed being run over, less great when it's about a hobby you supposedly enjoy.

It's also important to remember that the many of the people dealing with those really offensive and angry social media messages are regular folk like you and I - no special training.  I'd also argue that if you really want to get your point across, use the GW complaints mechanism rather than social media.  That's far more likely to be measured than angry social media posts - most companies don't quantify social media posts beyond a "feeling" and there's also a view that all publicity is good publicity (I'm not including class suits like Blizzard are facing)

One of the reasons we're able to have some of these fairly deep conversations on TGA is because we have a no excessive negativity policy and don't tolerate members being rude and offensive - that includes to each other and to non-members.  By taking this like (and on odd occasions stepping in) we're able to have some really good and healthy discussions - I can't see this thread having been as civil on Twitter or Facebook.

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

It's really hard to form an argument if you're angry too, because you're letting the reactionary part of the brain do the talking and not the rational part.

I don't think it's particularly necessary to build an "argument" when all you want to do is express that you're angry about something. That's an odd requirement:

"This makes me so mad!"

"Oh yeah? Justify that emotion in detail, please."

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Many of the people dealing with those really offensive and angry social media messages are regular folk like you and I - no special training.

Constructive criticism for GW: Invest in giving your employees the training they need to succeed in their role.

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd also argue that if you really want to get your point across, use the GW complaints mechanism rather than social media.

I totally agree that this should be the preferred method. The fact that people come to complain on TGA and other sites instead indicates that the proper channels aren't working effectively - people who use them don't feel heard (lack of acknowledgement or lack of commitment) and they lose trust in the process. That's when they seek out others who feel the same way to amplify the message and make themselves heard.

It's why I think GW's approach of never admitting that anything they do is less than the most bestest thing ever is so wrong-headed. When people constantly point out your mistakes and failures, and rather than acknowledging them you insist that everything is awesome, they feel dismissed and lose confidence in you; over time they become jaded and cynical. A little honesty would go a long way.

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

One of the reasons we're able to have some of these fairly deep conversations on TGA is because we have a no excessive negativity policy and don't tolerate members being rude and offensive - that includes to each other and to non-members.

I support and agree with this. I just also think that we (as a community) need to keep in mind that when people are coming here to express their strong negative feelings, it's because GW has failed them by making them feel dismissed and powerless. They're not trying to stir up negativity for its own sake, just looking for validation because this site is part of their support network. If they also end up feeling silenced and marginalised here (either by other posters or moderation) that's when things turn nasty.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Kadeton

[relic456]

Ah ****** it, @Kadeton said it pretty well. I should just send GW a message on socials.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by relic456

[Sarouan]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I don't think it's particularly necessary to build an "argument" when all you want to do is express that you're angry about something. That's an odd requirement:

"This makes me so mad!"

"Oh yeah? Justify that emotion in detail, please."

It's not necessary if your purpose is to just let your frustration out. It is when you want to convince others of your cause being well-founded - which is pretty much what's this OT was aiming to, IMHO.

Otherwise, Runebrush is right here : when you're angry and just let that anger take over, your arguments are usually not much coherent and that convincing to the others using that rationnal part of their brain. Of course, if the latter point that out to the former, there are good chances he'll still answer with the same agressivity, as I experienced before.

 

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Constructive criticism for GW: Invest in giving your employees the training they need to succeed in their role.

Heh. They actually do. I know this because I went through one in my young days.

Now do they invest enough money on that ? Question can always be asked, but let's not try to imply GW does nothing in that field, 'cause it's not the truth.

 

17 minutes ago, relic456 said:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, this certainly holds true when debating over a pint, but is patently false in terms of affecting corporate change (in my experience). It's very easy to ignore polite, unemotional, feedback, and I've seen it a million times.

Point is : you're not reaching GW as a corporate by getting angry on this forum or others like Dakkadakka, because that's not where GW hears your voice. There's no point in being agressive here because you only shout at people just like you and me, who don't work for GW and are just customers. And if you do, it's more a repellant than anything else if you're really expecting to be read / "heard".

That's the problem, IMHO.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sarouan

[relic456]

15 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Point is : you're not reaching GW as a corporate by getting angry on this forum or others like Dakkadakka. There's no point in being agressive here, unless for the sake of agressivity itself.

I'm actually glad you posted before I submitted my edit, since this is an interesting point.

I approach corporate feedback with a multi-faceted approach, since it amplifies your voice. I message them on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, send an email through the appropriate channels, and then talk about my frustrations (among other things) here. TGA is arguably one of the largest "unofficial", public, AoS forums. The mods are friends with GW employees, and I'm sure they visit here, even off the clock. So I'd argue, that while not the most efficient method, feedback here does reach GW. I would think that when TGA has to post stickies about negative sentiment and hires two extra mods, that sends a message, however small, through to GW too.

Edited August 30, 2021 by relic456

[Sarouan]

1 minute ago, relic456 said:

 So I'd argue, that while not the most efficient method, feedback here does reach GW. I would think that when TGA has to post stickies about negative sentiment and hires two extra mods, that sends a message, however small, through to GW too.

Well, if there are indeed GW employees who come here and if they are like the one working at my GW store, there's a good chance they don't actually go to threads like this one because that's not what they want to read in their free time.

So really, if you're doing it in hope you get heard by GW here...you really shouldn't be expecting much.

[Kadeton]

19 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Point is : you're not reaching GW as a corporate by getting angry on this forum or others like Dakkadakka. There's no point in being agressive here, unless for the sake of agressivity itself.

That's the problem, IMHO.

The basic problem is that when posting here, people aren't trying to reach GW any more. (Edit: Except for @relic456, apparently. ) They post here because they feel they can't get through to GW. Since they've been lead to believe that GW will never listen to them, they've given up on being constructive - at that point, they're looking for nothing more than somewhere to vent their anger. That's not being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive, I don't think - quite the opposite, really. It's being aggressive for the sake of bringing that anger back under control and regaining emotional balance.

Having an outlet for anger that has nowhere else to go is a healthy thing for the individual, but it's not so healthy for a community to be filled with angry people. The mods don't get enough credit for the work they do in finding a way to balance those needs, and I don't envy them that task.

It would be great if people didn't have quite so much anger to express as a result of their hobby. There are certainly ways that individuals can work on their own sense of calm and perspective, which everyone does to some extent. There are also plenty of ways that GW could help make the community more positive and healthy, but honestly they don't seem to think it's worth the effort.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Kadeton

[relic456]

Double post, sorry!

Edited August 30, 2021 by relic456

[relic456]

@Kadeton

I gotta believe at least a little! 🤣

11 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

So really, if you're doing it in hope you get heard by GW here...you really shouldn't be expecting much.

Believe me, my expectations couldn't be lower!

Edited August 30, 2021 by relic456

[Sarouan]

15 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

The basic problem is that when posting here, people aren't trying to reach GW any more. They post here because they feel they can't get through to GW.

 Even more reasons not to be agressive here, IMHO.

 

15 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Since they've been lead to believe that GW will never listen to them, they've given up on being constructive - at that point, they're looking for nothing more than somewhere to vent their anger. That's not being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive, I don't think - quite the opposite, really. It's being aggressive for the sake of bringing that anger back under control and regaining emotional balance.

....

It would be great if people didn't have quite so much anger to express as a result of their hobby. There are certainly ways that individuals can work on their own sense of calm and perspective, which everyone does to some extent. There are also plenty of ways that GW could help make the community more positive and healthy, but honestly they don't seem to think it's worth the effort.

Yes, letting that frustration out. Which only brings misery to others users who really don't need to "receive" all that frustration / anger even though if they're not the original target.

I totally understand, mind you...but explanations are never a justification.

And it shouldn't be the others users who have no tie to GW to deal with that. The problem, in the end, is completely inside the people who are really angry about this. In fact, I'm not even sure the disparition of GW would relieve them of that...more likely, they would find another target for their accumulated anger.

So I totally get the mods when they say they don't want that kind of things happening here because this forum isn't intended to become a "frustration dumpster". And I do tend to agree with them, I admit.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sarouan

[Nizrah]

23 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

The basic problem is that when posting here, people aren't trying to reach GW any more. (Edit: Except for @relic456, apparently. ) They post here because they feel they can't get through to GW. Since they've been lead to believe that GW will never listen to them, they've given up on being constructive - at that point, they're looking for nothing more than somewhere to vent their anger.

Yes exactly this. GW showed that they don't listen do constructive emails or comments. They only care if community rage on bigger scale. 

[Gitzdee]

I'm here because i like minis and want to spend my money on minis and paint and stuff like that.

I'm am not here to spend money on an app that gives me all kinds of stuff i'm not in this hobby for.

As long as i am not forced to pay for the app by removing the books or something i wont give them my money.

And i dont know about most of u but i'm starting to really hate the microtransaction thing thats going on for years now. I rather pay for the thing i need and be done with it.

[Kadeton]

31 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Yes, letting that frustration out. Which only brings misery to others users who really don't need to "receive" all that frustration / anger even though if they're not the original target.

Sure, it's not nice to deal with. But that's the difference between a random bunch of strangers and a community - we come together to support each other, even when someone's having a bad day and lashing out about it. And if you're not up to supporting someone while they work through their anger right now (which is totally understandable!) then you don't have to. There are enough people and enough conversations on here that you can just go and talk to someone else instead. By and large, the angry threads around here are well signposted and fairly self-contained, so they're easy to avoid if you're looking for something more positive.

31 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

And it shouldn't be the others users who have no tie to GW to deal with that. The problem, in the end, is completely inside the people who are really angry about this.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you would say "the problem" is that too many people expressing their anger is making these boards unpleasant to visit. In contrast, I would say "the problem" is that GW frequently makes choices or mistakes that genuinely upset a lot of people, and never takes responsibility for them, which fosters frustration and bitterness in the community. So it's entirely possible that we're talking about different problems... but the problem I see certainly isn't "completely inside the people who are really angry".

IMO, anger itself isn't the problem. It's only one symptom of the problem.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Kadeton

[azdimy]

A friend tried to sign up last night and was unsuccessful and they ve lost another subscription. They re really shooting themselves in the foot with the current interface available to subscribe!

[ian0delond]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

Sure, it's not nice to deal with. But that's the difference between a random bunch of strangers and a community - we come together to support each other, even when someone's having a bad day and lashing out about it. And if you're not up to supporting someone while they work through their anger right now (which is totally understandable!) then you don't have to. There are enough people and enough conversations on here that you can just go and talk to someone else instead. By and large, the angry threads around here are well signposted and fairly self-contained, so they're easy to avoid if you're looking for something more positive.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you would say "the problem" is that too many people expressing their anger is making these boards unpleasant to visit. In contrast, I would say "the problem" is that GW frequently makes choices or mistakes that genuinely upset a lot of people, and never takes responsibility for them, which fosters frustration and bitterness in the community. So it's entirely possible that we're talking about different problems... but the problem I see certainly isn't "completely inside the people who are really angry".

IMO, anger itself isn't the problem. It's only one symptom of the problem.

 

Like I get the content is lacking and the interface is sort of mediocre. But to the point of being angry and calling for a boycott?

It just looks a little silly and performative. You can just be "meh" about the service and move away.

Edited August 30, 2021 by ian0delond

[ArkanautDadmiral]

4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you would say "the problem" is that too many people expressing their anger is making these boards unpleasant to visit. In contrast, I would say "the problem" is that GW frequently makes choices or mistakes that genuinely upset a lot of people, and never takes responsibility for them, which fosters frustration and bitterness in the community. So it's entirely possible that we're talking about different problems... but the problem I see certainly isn't "completely inside the people who are really angry".

IMO, anger itself isn't the problem. It's only one symptom of the problem.

The problem you refer to though is subjective. Whilst it’s obvious those actions do clearly make some people angry, they don’t make everyone feel that way, and unfortunately if someone tries to debate the topic of that anger they’re called white knights, stans or shills which is really reductive. The problem with the anger on this forum isn’t that people are angry in the first place, that’s natural, it’s that often it’s directed at other community members because they just don’t feel the same level of indignation.

While you’re saying GW doesn’t take responsibility for their actions it also feels a bit like you’re excusing members from their own actions because of their anger.

Oh and I’ve got angry on here before (as anyone does on the internet) but I tend to delete the comment I’m writing before I post it when it gets to the point of me wanting to call people names or make accusations about their character.

More on topic of the app, seeing how little is coming on Wednesday has almost convinced me to cancel and subscribe again in a few months to watch the animations. I'll just do without that Assassin model I suppose (which I wouldn’t be able to do anything with anyway because I don’t actually collect 40k). I expected to be drip fed, but one animation episode a week (if it indeed carries on that way) isn’t enough for me. If they up it to 2-3 animations a week then I’ll resubscribe.

In regards to paying for the app unlike Azyr, it just doesn’t bother me that much. I appreciate warscrolls etc were available for free before, which was cool. But I always saw that as a bonus rather than any kind of necessity for me. It’s not what I’d prefer but that’s what it is, it’s not enough to kill the enjoyment of my hobby.

One day if everything becomes too inaccessible for me, or too expensive I’ll simply stop collecting.

[Pagan]

For me it was a simple choice.

I love GW models, but I already find many of them unpalatably expensive and so don't buy them. A pertinent recent example is £31.50 for 2 human sized character models - the witch hunters. 

I am therefore unwilling to spend hobby money on content which I already feel is provided for free on youtube by a variety of talented individuals or companies. 

At the moment Warhammer + feels like they are trying to prove to someone that they have a saleable product that isn't their miniatures, but they're having to bribe people with miniatures or ££ to get people to subscribe because the content is bizarrely thin on the ground.

[SugarWaterPurple]

I signed up for it; burn me at the stake. 

[Overread]

1 hour ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

I signed up for it; burn me at the stake. 

Welcome to the Cult - come the Day of Reckoning your account will be spared the great purging that will ensue as we weed out the unfaithful; the unclean and the unwilling to bow before the great Gods of the Workshop. 

[Gaz Taylor]

10 hours ago, relic456 said:

The mods are friends with GW employees,

Just to call this out as this is a misconception. To my knowledge non of the mods are friends with GW employees (I’m assuming you mean studio staff by the way) apart from Ben (who owns this forum).
 

Also I’ve played games in events against studio staff as well as had a drink with them but I don’t think this means I’m on their list of people who would help them move house. 😉

 

[Sleboda]

13 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Yes exactly this. GW showed that they don't listen do constructive emails or comments. They only care if community rage on bigger scale. 

Not true always.

I've had very pleasant and productive email conversations with them over issues I've had with them.

[JackStreicher]

19 hours ago, Kadeton said:

everything is awesome

 

You are hitting the nail on the head. If GW actually used social Media to listen to their fans (wishes, criticism, praise, dissatisfaction) and interacted with people with honesty and a bit of transparency, then I am sure, there would be a lot of less negativity.

However, they‘re doing the contrary.

“GW could you please fix this? It makes the game hard to play“

12 Articles, claiming that the game is the bestestestest and greatest ever, tested since the day the Roman Empire fell, flawless and perfect in design, and 40 social media comments claiming „they can’t grant any I formation“ later people tend to tilt.

It‘s mind boggling to me since nowadays products are meant to be produced in a agile manner... customers first and all that.

[JackStreicher]

16 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Now do they invest enough money on that ? Question can always be asked, but let's not try to imply GW does nothing in that field, 'cause it's not the truth.

 

I am pretty sure he is talking about App Development