AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Virtus-XIV]

10 hours ago, Benlisted said:

So been updating my number crunching spreadsheet based on the leaks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wl0LUdJnvMAR0OJx4c-Fg4Y8b4MUcnaOfQMbQvq_iqc/edit?usp=sharing

Numbers wise, for the points Harridans are the best output we have vs low saves (then rasps, closely followed by gheists and myrs).  Vs high saves (4+ or better) the myrmourns are the most points efficient damage we have by some margin, with gheists next and harridans actually second (though only hitting half the output per points of myrs).  Reapers look really sad, without their self buff they are worse than hosts, marginally worse than hexes and almost as bad as glaives!  The BC's output is not good in raw numbers but it has its new MWs. 

If you factor in self-buffs harridans obviously pull further ahead vs low saves, but BGs overtake rasps.  Notably even for 2+ units BGs with the extra attack are as effective per point as myrs.

Durability wise hosts are obviously the best, and the 4-model units are nearly half as durable for the points, they are super frail (i.e. takes half the damage to kill 1pt of models).

Some other observations on our sources of bonuses having done this:

+atks
Artefact - lightshard (once per game)
BR charging
GR vs 5+ models

+to hit
Olynder grief-stricken
AOA - free with KOSOES, copy with DH
DH if wounded
Chainghast aura

+to wound
GoS
CH charging
DH if wounded

Basically there are a ton less buff auras than we used to have, all the rerolls and effects on 6s we used to have are totally gone (though we also have a ton of debuffs now).  There's also a number of different ways to ensure you get each bonus and given each is self-applied by some units you can possibly skimp on some support depending how you build your list.

The math on the sheet appears broken to me for units with multiple attack profiles. Column AP is equal to AJ for multiple attack profile units’ summary rows. This is leading to incorrect conclusions for Grimghasts, hexwraiths, etc. Grims should be ~.034 damage per point against a 4+ without a charge bonus (I think, just ran it through calculator on my phone) not 0.020. As an example of the error, columns AP and AJ are both 3.259 for Grims.

If what I’m saying is correct, Grims still have a place next to Bladegheists and Dreads since they can attack in multiple ranks.

Against a 4+ with no bonuses and msu I’m getting:

grims: 0.034 damage per point

hosts: 0.024

hexes: 0.033

blades: 0.038

dreads: 0.0416

rasps: 0.0318

which if right is actually pretty good in terms of internal balance.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Virtus-XIV
Added damage per point values

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Am I the only one real sad about the Black Tome change?

Nah i was looking at it and was like… wizard only. Hmmm… going to be a miss if Arcane tome would also go. Pendant of Fell Wind for me is a big changer. I understand they don’t want us to go 11” base, but… i guess i would’ve liked a few more gimmicky artefacts. For command traits i’m pretty sold on Cloaked in Shadow. Realize that if you kit out a nice solid character, it can only be shot by a single unit, with as much damage mitigation as we have going, that will play in huge against mass shooting. My biggest miss is the loss of Reaping Scythe spell, would’ve liked to have that remain for Nagash but oh well. I guess some parts of the book have to be a bit static stat boosting while the other part is shenanigans overload. Not complaining.

[Benlisted]

54 minutes ago, Virtus-XIV said:

The math on the sheet appears broken to me for units with multiple attack profiles. Column AP is equal to AJ for multiple attack profile units’ summary rows. This is leading to incorrect conclusions for Grimghasts, hexwraiths, etc. Grims should be ~.034 damage per point against a 4+ without a charge bonus (I think, just ran it through calculator on my phone) not 0.020. As an example of the error, columns AP and AJ are both 3.259 for Grims.

If what I’m saying is correct, Grims still have a place next to Bladegheists and Dreads since they can attack in multiple ranks.

Cheers for the catch!  Stupid me had dragged the formula down and forgotten to replace it with sums in the appropriate place for those units.  Should be fixed now.  New interpretation is...

Unbuffed Harridans remain best vs low saves, with a bit of a gap to rasps > myrs > blades >> hexes > reapers > craventhrone (melee + ranged) = chainghasts > hosts which are all relatively close with a slightly larger gap after banshees.  Glaives way out the bottom.  

For higher saves myrs best, then gheists = chains > reapers >> hexes > harridans.  Notably harridans cease to be best at 5+ saves but only marginally.

With self buffs vs low saves it's harridans then BGs pulling ahead more from rasps but reapers equal rasps.  At high saves revs basically equal myrs with their buff, but reapers and harridans are both pulling respectably similar numbers.  So the conclusion that reapers are more useable than my first pass showed is definitely right, though hexes being as good output wise as them (without buffs) and super mobile with MWs certainly means they have stiff competition...

Another key thing to note is that harridans with their buff retain the best output up until 3+ where they only marginally lose to BGs, so they are the best option efficiency wise into most realistic targets if you can get a wound off first, bar the unkillable 2+ type stuff for which we can use MWs. Their debuff also probably renders them one of the most durable units point for point.  And they don't need investment in +1 to hit and +1 to wound buffs unlike other units, saving a ton of points there.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Benlisted
Corrected for 1 additional attack erroneously on BGs

[Vastus]

It's an interesting discussion between our troop choices. Grimghasts are still somewhat iffy I think, even with adjusted math. Against lower saves they get outperformed by Harridans mostly, and against higher saves they aren't likely to get their bonus (how many 10+ units with 3+ saves do you see realistically?). The 2" reach is nice for bigger units, but do we even want bigger units? We benefit from getting off multiple charges to stack debuffs and with the points increases we can't field all that many units to begin with, so MSU seems nicer. The main argument for larger blocks is survivability, and being able to regen them.

There might be potential for a good list there honestly, with some larger blocks and becoming very tough to deal with through a combination of: Dreadblade echoing Discorporate, Krulghast aura, Spirit Torment regen, Olynder regen, maybe even Midnight Tome for a guaranteed Lifeswarm (or just Reikenor Corpse Candle/Master of Magic). That could be quite nasty if you can just outlast and grind the enemy down. Emerald Host would benefit from that as well, since extending the game means it's more likely that the MW from it are actually impactful before the game is decided.

In general we seem to be more of an army about outmaneuvering and outlasting. The main issue is that there's a bunch of nice synergies and ideas, but it's hard to fit all of it in pointswise, and we're gonna be very low on models and wounds. I just kind of keep flip-flopping between ideas.

On a side note, Emerald Host has made me reconsider the Scriptor Mortis. I wasn't a fan before (and still not much tbh), but together with Emerald Host that's a lot of passive pressure to put on a key piece of your opponent. It can also help with our issue of taking down high save monsters/heroes.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Vastus

[Ranzou]

You can tell me whatever good words about harridans, but I'm still in love with reapers.

They are still  2", they are still 4+ 3+ -1 1, they still can do everything - be anvil (not best), be hammer (not best).

But with right help those guys must shine.

Hear me out:

Spoiler

Olinder - mortals mortals mortals

Spirit Torment - 2x3 reapers every turn

Guardian of Souls - Master of Magic, general, shademist

Dreadblade - Arcane Tome (seal of shyish) for another 5+++ AND copy of 5+++ from GoS

30x reapers - anvil (under constant discorp and shademist) and horde dealers 

2x5 hexwraiths - for WoT and mortals

4 myrmourns - magic dealers+WoT

Black Coach - mortals mortals mortals

Idea is simple - reapers with ST and GoS march towards under discorp and mist, hexes and coach - flanks, dreadblade gives 5+++ to all hexex by cast and copy from reapers, Olinder with myrmourns appears where they want.

Dreadblade can be easily exchanged for KoSoeS with Pendant for buffing and debuffing.

This can be griev or emerald host.

Opinions?

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Ranzou

[Rors]

Aside from not being reliant on buffs to have the best output against most/important targets, I think a benefit of banshees is that they don't just have the best point for point output, they also come in smaller and cheaper units. The core wave of terror buff leans towards MSU and banshees do better MSU than other units. Harridans are more expensive to set up for a multi-charge and you won't get all of them in most of the time. 2 units of banshees is a lot cheaper than 2 units of harridans and it's way easier to 100% from the unit without loosing some due to not being able to reach over one another.

[Neck-Romantic]

Im seeing reaper's points to model ratio being solid as MSU Wave of Terror farming. Their footprint is a bit large at 10 models, Chainghasts or Myrmourns have a much smaller footprint but a far higher points to model ratio.

Its a shame Glaivewraiths got a price hike; if they were cheap, bonus to charge range disposable WoT chaff whose only job is to pour debuffs into a combat so your big gnarly buffed-up Bladegeist/Harridan/Myrmourn hammer can clean house ... it would finally give them a recognizeable niche.

As it is, Chainghasts clock in at the lowest -cost per selection- but a terrible -cost per model- for this role... what do you guys think? *edit* meaning what do you think would be our best WoT spam unit? Myrmourns for the small footprint, Spirit Hosts for similar reason, or things like Grms and rasps

Edited May 4, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Ranzou]

14 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

meaning what do you think would be our best WoT spam unit?

As for me - it is myrmourns.

They have decent damage output (basic 2 -2 2) + passive antimagic. Even without enemy magic they can do some damage.

Glaivewraiths are still trash. Why GW doesn't love them?

[Benlisted]

53 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

As it is, Chainghasts clock in at the lowest -cost per selection- but a terrible -cost per model- for this role... what do you guys think? *edit* meaning what do you think would be our best WoT spam unit?

I genuinely think it'll be rasps, 10 5+ wounds for 5-15 pts more than 4 4+ wounds is significantly tougher for a marginal price increase and much larger footprint/more bodies for objective control.  4 wounds on a unit is just way too squishy for nearly 100 pts for my liking.

There's also tomb banshees cairn wraiths and torments which, if you have the hero slot, are quite possibly more attractive (hell, more durable) than min units with 4 wounds.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Benlisted

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Im seeing reaper's points to model ratio being solid as MSU Wave of Terror farming. Their footprint is a bit large at 10 models, Chainghasts or Myrmourns have a much smaller footprint but a far higher points to model ratio.

Its a shame Glaivewraiths got a price hike; if they were cheap, bonus to charge range disposable WoT chaff whose only job is to pour debuffs into a combat so your big gnarly buffed-up Bladegeist/Harridan/Myrmourn hammer can clean house ... it would finally give them a recognizeable niche.

As it is, Chainghasts clock in at the lowest -cost per selection- but a terrible -cost per model- for this role... what do you guys think? *edit* meaning what do you think would be our best WoT spam unit? Myrmourns for the small footprint, Spirit Hosts for similar reason, or things like Grms and rasps

It really depends on what subfaction you intent to run. If you want to optimize for WoT I think going with Bladegheists under scarlet doom by far outweights anything else. We are talking about 1 mortal per 3 charging bladegheist  on average and you get full benefit when running them MSU. They have solid statlines that can even handle debuffs to hit and wound, while buffing them further brings them to the perfect hit and wound stats. Other than that, i'd say hexwraiths are great too, they are so incredibly fast and can reliably get into amazing flank positions to guarantee their charge. Myrmourn are amazing for their magic denial, but some people already expressed an issue that worried me before. They are a 4 wound unit. The chaffest of chaff ranged unit can plink them off the board in an instant, so the only true reliable way of charging them in is by teleporting them in or if the scenery allows, sneak them up from behind scenery. When it comes to charging from teleport, glaivewraiths are obviously the most reliable. But overall that's their only value and for that they are just overcosted. I think if you want to get your worth out of Grimghast, running 20-30 man units is best, for that i don't see them as a great contender for WoT charges. Rasps are pretty solid chaff. They are also more expensive than they were. Great for back objective holding or sending them in as a unit of 20 under Grieving legion to lock your opponents in place. Spirit Hosts could be 1 of the best tagteams together with a combat hero like a KoS or Kosoes, keeping them save while also causing WoT for pretty cheap investment. I feel harridans are in this case a more elite rasp unit, although in specific matchups they shine under Quicksilver death, for example in a mirror matchup or vs nurgle. Chainghasts are too valuable to charge in yolo for a WoT, you need to work to get their worth.

[Ranzou]

There are some warscroll battalions in leaks, with interesting rule - Bound beneath indomitable will.

Are they from Matched Play or Narrative?

Edited May 4, 2022 by Ranzou

[Landohammer]

I'm just not seeing all the Myrmourn love. At 26pts per wound, and capped at 8 models, they aren't going to net much return on their points.

Units of 4 are doubly useless, because 4 aren't strong enough to wipe a unit, and return attacks will wipe out every banshee in combat that hasn't swung yet. Not to mention they bleed points to shooting like nothing else.

Their anti-magic is strong in theory, but it can be avoided by simply targeting another unit. 

 

6 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Am I the only one real sad about the Black Tome change?

Having access to the Arcane Tome essentially made the midnight tome redundant. I actually think its one of our more powerful items considering the damage output of the Shyish Reaper or Mortalis. But personally I will be taking the Lightshard most of the time. 

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm thinking there is a missing page or few to the leaks...

Reikenor, Kurdoss, Awlrach, and presumably Olynder, all have the Grieving Legion keyword which does nothing for them. Yet no other heroes or rank-and-file units have it. This suggests to me that for that subfaction there is a specific ability or artifact not yet revealed that they may have the option to take or are forced to take.

In fact, I think that whole subfaction section seems a bit light.

Anyone got any info on that?

In other battletomes with subfactions, it is common to lock all or most named characters into a single subfaction which they may or may not benefit from. It seems GW's standard mode of operation is to have on "main" subfaction per book which gets to be the one the majority of named character belong to. Usually it's the subfaction with the most generic/least impactful allegiance ability. Mechanically, locking characters in like this prevents them from making use of other subfaction allegiance abilities.

Sometimes, GW also does it for lore reasons: For example, all the Cursed City Gravelords units are Vyrkos subfaction locked, even though there is not really much of a gameplay reason for this. The Cities of Sigmar units from Cursed City had an even more extreme versions of this, where they all got a subfaction keyword that doesn't even exist in the Cities book at all.

 

38 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

There are some warscroll battalions in leaks, with interesting rule - Bound beneath indomitable will.

Are they from Matched Play or Narrative?

I have not seen the page in question, but if they are warscroll battalions and not core battalions, they are not matched play legal by default.

[Rors]

Glaivewraiths warscroll says they only get +3 to charge is it was a NORMAL move that ended them closer, so they don't even work for the one teleport combo that they seem designed for. In what looks like a really strong book, they really are such a bizarrely weak option.

Myrmourn are ridiculously fragile glass hammers but for WoT spamming they seem like the best option to me. There's a 16% chance of rolling a 10+ per charge, so you want to be casting soul cage as even with 3 charges, the odds are just below 50%. You have an 81% chance of getting some rend off three units though. At rend 3 Myrmourn will just wreck so many elite units and heros. They don't worry about coherency and can easily wrap around a target to get 100% efficiency from each model. While probably being among the most fragile units in the game, a d3 heal is up to 75% of the unit back. The high value per wound goes both ways, it's a riskier to loose but more reward to return. This will probably mess with the opponent, do they overkill the unit with archers or split fire? If they splitfire and don't kill both units off entirely, it's very easy to have them both back at full health. Any army list that can pump out high volume shots or damage 4 is going to ruin their day though. It's definitely a high risk/reward unit.

With an 81% chance of getting at least 1 extra rend and assuming you cast soul cage or roll a 10+, charging 3 units in will do 12 damage against a 2+ save and 14  (against a 3+ save. That'll wreck a zombie dragon or mawcrusher and against a unit with a 4+ save it's 17 damage, at which point they will loose anything left over to battle shock. - keep in mind no other buffs are added, no guardian of souls or all out attack or Olynders spell.. this is basically the floor not the ceiling for their damage potential.

Comparatively, a 3 units of chainrasp cost more and while far more durable, won't do all that much to a 3+ save even if they do get an extra rend, and it's too statistically low of a chance too count on stacking rend. 

Bladegheist want to be in crimson doom in units of 30 with the defensive buffs up so they're not spamming WoT.

Harridans definitely benefit from WoT but in units of 10 you loose a lot of output if you try to multi-charge because so many models won't get within range to fight. It's also getting really expensive to spam again. You'd probably go with a single harridan unit and some cheaper support characters to trigger WoT more times. 

Spamming WoT might not be the best approach anyway though.. Likely more of a great but slightly random boon to have then something to try to intentionally stack to the heavens for competitive play.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Rors
better math

[lare2]

25 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In other battletomes with subfactions, it is common to lock all or most named characters into a single subfaction which they may or may not benefit from. It seems GW's standard mode of operation is to have on "main" subfaction per book which gets to be the one the majority of named character belong to. Usually it's the subfaction with the most generic/least impactful allegiance ability. Mechanically, locking characters in like this prevents them from making use of other subfaction allegiance abilities.

Sometimes, GW also does it for lore reasons: For example, all the Cursed City Gravelords units are Vyrkos subfaction locked, even though there is not really much of a gameplay reason for this. The Cities of Sigmar units from Cursed City had an even more extreme versions of this, where they all got a subfaction keyword that doesn't even exist in the Cities book at all.

 

I have not seen the page in question, but if they are warscroll battalions and not core battalions, they are not matched play legal by default.

Those are for narrative. I've not seen the matched play ones yet.

Edited May 4, 2022 by lare2

[lare2]

25 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In other battletomes with subfactions, it is common to lock all or most named characters into a single subfaction

You're right and I'd not considered them being locked into Grieving Legion. If true, you'd not be able to run Bladegheists as battleline with, for example, Kurdoss. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, lare2 said:

You're right and I'd not considered them being locked into Grieving Legion. If true, you'd not be able to run Bladegheists as battleline with, for example, Kurdoss. 

If it works like in most other books, then you would still be able to bring Kurdoss in Scarlet Doom. He just would not benefit from any allegiance abilities granted by that subfaction.

[Arzalyn]

5 hours ago, That Guy said:

It really depends on what subfaction you intent to run. If you want to optimize for WoT I think going with Bladegheists under scarlet doom by far outweights anything else. We are talking about 1 mortal per 3 charging bladegheist  on average and you get full benefit when running them MSU. They have solid statlines that can even handle debuffs to hit and wound, while buffing them further brings them to the perfect hit and wound stats. Other than that, i'd say hexwraiths are great too, they are so incredibly fast and can reliably get into amazing flank positions to guarantee their charge. Myrmourn are amazing for their magic denial, but some people already expressed an issue that worried me before. They are a 4 wound unit. The chaffest of chaff ranged unit can plink them off the board in an instant, so the only true reliable way of charging them in is by teleporting them in or if the scenery allows, sneak them up from behind scenery. When it comes to charging from teleport, glaivewraiths are obviously the most reliable. But overall that's their only value and for that they are just overcosted. I think if you want to get your worth out of Grimghast, running 20-30 man units is best, for that i don't see them as a great contender for WoT charges. Rasps are pretty solid chaff. They are also more expensive than they were. Great for back objective holding or sending them in as a unit of 20 under Grieving legion to lock your opponents in place. Spirit Hosts could be 1 of the best tagteams together with a combat hero like a KoS or Kosoes, keeping them save while also causing WoT for pretty cheap investment. I feel harridans are in this case a more elite rasp unit, although in specific matchups they shine under Quicksilver death, for example in a mirror matchup or vs nurgle. Chainghasts are too valuable to charge in yolo for a WoT, you need to work to get their worth.

The "which unit to use" problem for me happen mostly when I try to build a Emerald Host list, as it don't favor a particular unit. Scarlet doom make Bladegheist the best hammer. If you are going Quicksilver you will want at least 2 Harridan units to make use of the effect. For grieving legion I would argue that it probably favor the Reapers just to have another 20 model unit that don't waste attacks due to the unit size. Now when you get to Emerald what do you favor? All the 3 of them seen to have a similar damage output, with some minor variations depending on the enemy unit save/model count for their buffs.

3 hours ago, Rors said:

Bladegheist want to be in crimson doom in units of 30 with the defensive buffs up so they're not spamming WoT.

Harridans definitely benefit from WoT but in units of 10 you loose a lot of output if you try to multi-charge because so many models won't get within range to fight. It's also getting really expensive to spam again. You'd probably go with a single harridan unit and some cheaper support characters to trigger WoT more times. 

Do you think that going above MSU in both case is really worth it? I can imagine that the extra mortals the bladegheists get can help compensate half the unit not attacking (due to the 1" reach), but the harridans I'm not so sure. I get that it make the unit less easy to die due to shooting or something else, but I'm not sure if the price we pay just for the extra resilience is worth it. Wouldn't favoring the Torment and the Guardian more (to get those models back) be a better investment points wise?

[Evil Bob]

3 hours ago, Rors said:

Snip

Spamming WoT might not be the best approach anyway though.. Likely more of a great but slightly random boon to have then something to try to intentionally stack to the heavens for competitive play.

Going to strongly agree that simply relying on 8+ charges is swingy and bound for disappointment.

But therin-lies-the-rub. Most of Nighthaunt boons (faction & warscroll) are on the charge so they don’t work during the opponents turn much less a double turn. Spooky Generals have to address hero/unit synergy’s and the best gambles on charge rolls unlike other armies that get things baked into their warscrolls, forgiving aura rules, or flat-out given in faction rules. Nighthaunt doesn’t get the easy self sufficient drop options, nor it shouldn’t because that is boring gameplay.

All of this recent tactics talk is great. Especially the closer table theory and the statistics get. The Deathsythe Harridans chatter is so much in-the-thick-of-it.

[Frowny]

Bladegheists on their sub faction seem very very strong.

 

As an extreme example, you could take about 90 of them. That's 30 mw on the charge, per turn, remembering that they can do so every turn. Also unlike harridans, they don't require support- they already have easy access to their own self buff by charging and can take advantage of all out attack which others can't. And starting with 1 rend means they aren't quite as reliant on charges as other models to get their kill on. 

But mostly, army wide mw in the charge is excellent.

And even more, they are my favorite models- by far. And that definitely counts for something.

I just wish they gave nighthaunt a monster, 2nd chariot or some more cavalry instead of so many different random heroes. There are more heroes than all other things out together. And then still 50% more heroes.

 

[EnixLHQ]

As far as table talk goes, we have to remember that the game of Age of Sigmar is a points game. Doesn't matter how many enemy units you kill, or your own units you lose, as long as you end up with more points at the end of the game than your opponent. In fact, you can still earn points even if your army gets wiped off the table, because the rules support that.

That being said, I think Sotek has probably the best outlook on it for our early early days until we get more real-world experience. Basically it breaks down like this:

-In our Hero phases, we should be thinking of protecting ourselves for when our combat buffs aren't available. That means getting Shademist and Seal of Shyish out. That means getting a Terminexus out.

-In our Movement phases, we should be thinking about capturing objectives, preventing our opponent from claiming objectives, and lining up charges to contest objectives. If an objective isn't a goal of the potential exchange, you spend this time changing that fact.

-In our Shooting phases, we should be weakening enemy heroes or important units so that our opponent has to consider more variables than just what's in combat.

-In our Charge phases, we should be trying to multi-charge units that are on objectives we want.

-In our Combat phases, we should be focusing to erase as much of our engaged units as possible, and not be spread thin across too many fights.

-Then we rely on our spells to get us through to the battleshock step which hopefully eliminates the enemy unit.

Rinse and repeat.

His competitive list is as follows:

Spoiler

Emerald Host

General - Guardian of Souls with Cloaked in Shadow, Midnight Tome, Seal of Shyish

Heroes: Lady Olynder with Shademist, Kurdoss, Krulghast Cruciator with Lightshard of the Harvest Moon, and Spirit Torment

Troops: x20 Chainrasps, x3 Spirit Hosts, x10 Grimgast Reapers, x10 Bladegheist Revenants, x10 Bladegheist Revenants, x2 Chainghasts

Endless Spell: Mortalis Terminexus

Tactic: GoS has Cloaked to shore up his squishyness and the Tome to guarantee a first round Terminexus (or save the Tome until later if you know your opponent will try to dispel it). Send that Terminexus to do some damage until you need it for healing. Spirit Hosts will be bodyguarding Olynder and Kurdoss. Reapers with the Chainrasps to attack over their 2-ranks, and if with KC and the Lightshard that's some 60 attacks. The Bladegheists are there to multi-charge and should be accompanied by the Spirit Torment and GoS. And the Chainghasts are to have another +1 hit aura, which can go with Chanrasps/Reapers or Olynder/Kurdoss. Spells go where needed.

 

[Ranzou]

Everybody noticed that Kurdoss have now 2" club?

[Rachmani]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

Bladegheists on their sub faction seem very very strong.

 

As an extreme example, you could take about 90 of them. That's 30 mw on the charge, per turn, remembering that they can do so every turn. Also unlike harridans, they don't require support- they already have easy access to their own self buff by charging and can take advantage of all out attack which others can't. And starting with 1 rend means they aren't quite as reliant on charges as other models to get their kill on. 

But mostly, army wide mw in the charge is excellent.

And even more, they are my favorite models- by far. And that definitely counts for something.

I just wish they gave nighthaunt a monster, 2nd chariot or some more cavalry instead of so many different random heroes. There are more heroes than all other things out together. And then still 50% more heroes.

 

How would you get 90 of them, when reinforcements cap at 4?

[Neck-Romantic]

I really like the phase tactics breakdown.

90 BGs sounds clunky and awkward.

Agree we need a Monster, pray they do the Mourngul a good update, tho Im really nervous they want to phase it out in favor of the Coach. Are we the -only- 3.0 tome with NO monster?

With retreat and charge everywhere, I would also voice that Soulsnare Shackles and the Briar Queen could potentially leave enemy units stranded and out of position after we zip away

Also; running BG's in blobs of 30 just doesnt sound feasible for those who are bringing it up. Its a massive footprint, difficult to get it under a GoS or Krulghast or Chainghast aura, and sounds very easy to get bogged down in terrain or flanked and unable to retreat and charge effectively. I honestly feel that MSU BG's, despite the fragility, will be much more suitable for swirling around or retreating thru screens to charge targets further in.

*especially if you are bringing myrmourns and heroes wanting to sneak in and multi charge in order to stack debuffs/fish for petrify

**its really really important to remember that Hosts, Harridans, mounts, and craventhrone melee have no rend whatsoever, so without multi charges, those (predominatley 4+/4+) attacks are going to go nowhere. We need those -1 saves to push enough damage through for battleshock to cause the real havoc. A Spirit Host's 6 attacks are going to average 1 unsaved wound on a 4+ save opponent.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Frowny]

5 hours ago, Rachmani said:

How would you get 90 of them, when reinforcements cap at 4?

Who says they have to be in a big groups? 9 groups of 10. Gets more charges that way anyway. as far as I know there is no limit on the number of battle line entries you can pick?

That list is almost certainly not optimal. You almost certainly want a few more points in heroes or other elements but still, 30 MW per turn is strong, when it is on top of all the normal stuff you do. Free Gargant almost dead on average? yes please. 

I also like bladegheists because they are so independent but simultaneously do well with buffs. For example, with all-out-attack they outperform harridans against a 5+ or worse target, which is most targets. Conversely, you can't buff harridans at all since they already cap themselves out at +1, so if you really need to kill something, you are at the mercy of the dice. 

Their main downside of course is their cost /wound, which you can somewhat compensate for just by taking more (and not taking too many heroes)

I think one of the traps of the book is actually the heroes. They are all interesting and improved, but you can spend a lot of points on heroes without getting enough bodies, especially since most units went up in cost, either slightly or a lot. I can imagine struggling really really hard into Nurgle, for example, as MW are pretty good against us, they have reasonable saves, and a boatload of wounds.