AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Jaskier]

I did a quick summary of all warscroll changes I noticed for anyone who didn't want to cross reference everything, if this isn't allowed just tell me and I'll edit it out  

 

Olynder/Reikenor/Spirit Hosts/Executioner/etc - lost Frightful Touch and equivalent rules that do mortals on 6s to-hit (replaced with new army-wide rule)

Olynder +125 points - +2" move, +1 attack and flat Damage 2 on staff, +1 Rend on banshee claws, gained Warmaster (is always treated as a general), lost once-per-game D6 mortal wounds to enemy hero within 6" or heal D6 wounds, gained a 4+ ward, lost restore 1 model to friendly summonable units wholly within 12" command ability (required her to be the general to use) now restores D6 models to each summonable unit table-wide once per game, lost +1 to number of models that flee from failed Battleshock/now causes enemy units that issue commands within 12" to 'fail' the command and lose the CP if a 5+ is rolled, Lifting the Veil now heals D3 wounds for every model slain by it, lost roll 2D6 against bravery and on fail deal D3 mortal wounds to enemy units within 10"

Reikenor +45 points - +1 attack and +1 to-hit and +1 Rend on scythe, lost re-rolls to hit against units of 5 or more models, now has +1 to-hit/wound against Priests and Wizards

Kurdoss +50 points - +2" move, +1 Rend and flat Damage 3 on sceptre, +1 Rend on spectral claws, lost wound rolls of 6 are D6 damage instead of D3 for sceptre, lost re-roll hit rolls against enemy generals, now steals CP at the start of each battle round instead of each hero phase and is not dependent on enemy general but now adds +1 to the roll to steal if within 6" of an enemy hero

Krulghast +30 points - +2" move, lost 5++ ward bubble if any wounds are inflicted but not negated by its missile weapon but now if it is within 12" of any Terrified units it reduces Damage of all enemy attacks by 1 to Nighthaunt units wholly within 12"

Lord Executioner +50 points - +2" move, +2 attacks and +1 Damage on scythe, 5+ ward now works against all wounds and not just mortal wounds, lost -1 to-hit for an enemy hero within 3" but now applies -1 to-wound for an enemy unit within 3" instead

Guardian of Souls +15 points - +2" move, +1 Damage on blade

Knight of Shrouds +35 points - +2" move, +1 attack on sword, no longer heals a wound each time it kills a hero/now if it kills any models in the fight phase it heals a wound and increases its wound characteristic by 1 at the end of the combat phase, lost +1 to-hit command ability/now can issue Redeploy or Unleash Hell for free once per battle round and can now fight at the same time as 1 Nighthaunt summonable unit wholly within 12" (works the same as the Khorne Herald, i.e. two seperate activations in one go) 

Knight of Shrouds on Steed +35 points - +1 attack on sword, lost +1 attack command ability/now can issue All Out Attack for free once per battle round and can now fight at the same time as 1 Nighthaunt summonable unit wholly within 12" (as above) 

Tomb Banshee +35 points - +2" move, +1 wound, +1 attack and +1 to-hit and flat Damage 2 on dagger, gained missile weapon (12" range, D3 attacks, 3+ to-hit, 3+ to-wound, -2 Rend, Damage 1), lost pick a unit and suffers mortal wounds based on difference between 2D6 roll and targets' Bravery, now at the start of the charge phase you pick 1 unit within 12" and on a 4+ (3+ if target is terrified) opponent must add 1 to CP cost of any command abilities used on that unit until your next hero phase

Cairn Wraith +45 points - +2" move, +1 wound, +1 to-hit on scythe, lost re-rolls to hit against units of 5 or more models, scythe now has attacks equal to number of enemy models within 3" instead of flat 3 attacks

Spirit Torment (unchanged) - +1 to-hit on chains, healing/recursion ability no longer requires enemy models to be slain by attacks made by Nighthaunt in that phase (ability is now automatic at end of each combat phase) 

Scriptor Mortis +5 points - +2" move, -1 Damage on quill

Dreadblade Harrow +45 points - +1 attack and +1 Damage on sword, lost +1 attack if not charging +1 Damage if charging ability (now part of base stats) lost re-roll wound rolls of 1 if within 9" of a Knight of Shrouds, teleport ability changed; now done at the end of the movement phase, can now be used if within 3" of enemy units, can be done after normal move/run/retreat, now must also be setup 1" away from terrain and objectives, gained a new ability; can issue the same command the general uses at no CP cost once per battle round 

Briar Queen +105 points (280 for Queen and retinue) - can now pass off wounds/mortal wounds to its retinue on a 3+ if within 3" of them

Thorns of the Briar Queen (as above) - +1 wound, +4 Bravery (no longer require unit leader for this) +1 attack on weapon, unit leader now has +1 attack, lost re-roll wound rolls of 1 while unit has 2 or more models within 3" of target unit, now has +1 to-wound if they charged that turn

Black Coach +135 points - no longer degrades (move is now always 10", spectral claws now always have 9 attacks), +2" range and D3 instead of 1 attacks and -1 to-hit and Rend reduced by 1 (to -2) and flat Damage 2 on grasp (missile profile), -1 to-hit and Rend reduced by 1 (to -2) and flat Damage 2 on grasp (melee profile), +1 attack and +1 to-hit and +1 Rend on scythe, lost re-rolls to-hit against units of 5 or more models, lost five levels of stacking bonuses based on dice rolls (lost D3 heal/return D3 dead models to friendly units, lost re-roll hit rolls of 1 in melee and run + charge, lost on a 4+ deal D3 mortal wounds to enemy units within 3" in your hero phase) now always has ability to deal D3 mortal wounds on 2+ to 1 enemy unit within 1" after making a charge move, gained a 5+ ward, can be removed from the battlefield and immediately setup anywhere more than 9" from enemy units and 1" from terrain/objectives instead of making a normal move or retreat, has an alternative 'power-up' ability; starting at 1, the value increases by 1 for each enemy model that is slain or flees within 12" to a maximum of 6; if the score is 5-6, it gains a 4+ ward; it can reset the value to 1 in a friendly shooting phase to unleash 3D3 mortal wounds on a single enemy unit within 12" on a 2+ (value is reset after the 3D3 mortal wounds are resolved, meaning it stays at 1 even if any models are slain by the ability)

Chainrasps +15 points - +2" move, +2 Bravery, unit leader no longer sets unit to Bravery 10 if alive, lost re-roll wound rolls of 1 while unit has 10 or more models, now has +1 to-wound if they charged that turn

Myrmourns +30 points - appear unchanged from recent warscroll update

Bladegheists -15 - unchanged from recent warscroll update, are now Battleline in The Scarlet Doom

Dreadscythes (no change) - +1 attack and -1 to-wound and Rend reduced by 1 (to 0) on scythed limbs, lost unmodified hit rolls of 6 score 2 hits, gained +1 to-hit/wound against enemy units that have wounds allocated to them or have had any models slain in that turn, lost -1 to-hit rolls for enemy units within 3" that are Bravery 6 or lower, gained on the turn they charge enemy units within 3" suffer -1 to-wound rolls, are now Battleline in The Quicksilver Dead

Craventhrone Guard +20 points - +1 save, are now Battleline if Kurdoss is in the army

Chainghasts +20 points - +1 save, flat 2 attacks on ghastflails (both profiles)

Glaivewraiths +40 points - +2" move, -1" range and -1 attack and +1 Rend and +1 Damage on glaive, drummer now adds +1 to charge rolls, lost re-roll hit-rolls on the turn they charge, now pick 1 enemy unit to be their 'prey' at the start of their first hero phase and adds +3 to charge rolls on any turn in which they make a normal move that finishes closer to their prey

Spirit Hosts (unchanged) - +2" move, +1 to-hit on claws, gained Elite (can self-issue commands), can now 'bodyguard' Nighthaunt heroes (before allocating a wound/mortal wound to the hero, if a friendly Spirit Host unit is within 3" then on a 3+ the wound/mortal wound is allocated to them instead and cannot be negated) 

Hexwraiths +10 points - +1 to-hit on scythe, +1 to-wound on hooves, lost mortal wounds on 5+ per model in unit after moving through enemy units, now does D3 mortal wounds on a 2+ to one enemy unit within 1" after making a charge move, can now elect to double move characteristic (to 24") at the start of the movement phase but the unit cannot charge that turn

Grimghast Reapers +5 points - +1 attack and -1 to-hit and D3 Damage (instead of 2) on bell, lost mortal wounds dealt to target equal to number of models slain by bell attacks, swapped re-roll hit rolls against units of 5 or more models for +1 attack against units of 5 or more models

Shyish Reaper (unchanged) - now adds +1 to roll to see if mortal wounds are dealt if target unit is terrified

Mortalis Terminexus (unchanged) - casting range reduced by 6"

Vault of Souls (unchanged) - now adds +1 to roll to see if the target unit suffers mortal wounds (both the 6+ roll and the 2+ roll) if the target unit is terrified
 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jaskier

[anorek]

Where can I find all these changes/leaks?

[Jaskier]

Check the Nighthaunt Reddit, one of the posts has a link to an album It's unfortunately missing a few warscrolls though, namely the Dreadblade Harrow and Grimghast Reapers. 

[Malakithe]

31 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Bladegheists -15 - unchanged from recent warscroll update, are now Battleline in Quicksilver Dead

What was their 'recent' update?

[Jaskier]

23 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

What was their 'recent' update?

Unless I'm misremembering, they used to have an ability giving them re-roll all hit-rolls if they were near a Spirit Torment, and I think their update in the recent box set removed that. I might be wrong though!

[Malakithe]

11 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Unless I'm misremembering, they used to have an ability giving them re-roll all hit-rolls if they were near a Spirit Torment, and I think their update in the recent box set removed that. I might be wrong though!

Ive only seen a super blurry pic so it was hard to read what their one and only ability said

Also doesnt make any sense why they are not battleline in The Scarlet Doom when Bladegheist are the entire point 

All I can make is out something about adding 1 to attacks if something something something

Edited April 30, 2022 by Malakithe

[Jaskier]

14 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Ive only seen a super blurry pic so it was hard to read what their one and only ability said

Also doesnt make any sense why they are not battleline in The Scarlet Doom when Bladegheist are the entire point 

They just have +1 attack on the charge as before. 

Oh that's a mistake on my end, thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it. The picture of a red Dreadscythe next to the rules for the Scarlet Doom made me mentally think it was 'their' sub-faction 😅

Also added in the Black Coach's new form of Evocation of Death to the summary. I can see why it's over 300 points now because, besides not degrading, the thing is almost guaranteed to have a 4+ ward the moment it charges into something. If you burn its tokens to do the 3D3 mortal wounds, you only need to inflict 4 casualties in the ensuing charge+combat phases to get it back to that 4+ ward. Basically, it's a much deadlier Ethereal Phoenix! 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jaskier

[Malakithe]

2 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

They just have +1 attack on the charge as before. 

Oh that's a mistake on my end, thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it. The picture of a red Dreadscythe next to the rules for the Scarlet Doom made me mentally think it was 'their' sub-faction 😅

Ahh ok...and yeah now that you mention it that image makes no sense at all there lol but hey now I can live the dream of a full Bladegheist list. 

Load up on them and get those auto-wounds via weight of attacks

[Rachmani]

11 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

They just have +1 attack on the charge as before. 

Oh that's a mistake on my end, thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it. The picture of a red Dreadscythe next to the rules for the Scarlet Doom made me mentally think it was 'their' sub-faction 😅

I literally made the same mistake when reading it.

[Benlisted]

1 hour ago, The_Dudemeister said:

How will we fight armies with good saves like Stormcast? We bring way fewer models to the table and lost almost all our mortal wound output.

 

Not saying it will be impossible. Just that we have to drop one or the other support piece and defensive spell/relic/trait for some actual damage dealers

 

I think that is the main factor we need to consider when building lists.

Wave of terror -1 to save can stack! MSU might therefore be the order of the day..

[Jaskier]

Something amusing I just realized is, much like Maggotkin and Disgustingly Resilient, Nighthaunt now lose their Ethereal ability if taken outside of a Nighthaunt army 😅 The "price" of cleaning up the warscrolls, I guess. 

[Archibald]

Did Nagashs Warscroll change?

[lare2]

33 minutes ago, Archibald said:

Did Nagashs Warscroll change?

Nope

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

They just have +1 attack on the charge as before. 

Oh that's a mistake on my end, thanks for pointing it out, I corrected it. The picture of a red Dreadscythe next to the rules for the Scarlet Doom made me mentally think it was 'their' sub-faction 😅

Also added in the Black Coach's new form of Evocation of Death to the summary. I can see why it's over 300 points now because, besides not degrading, the thing is almost guaranteed to have a 4+ ward the moment it charges into something. If you burn its tokens to do the 3D3 mortal wounds, you only need to inflict 4 casualties in the ensuing charge+combat phases to get it back to that 4+ ward. Basically, it's a much deadlier Ethereal Phoenix! 

Wow. Glad that Nighthaunts can play with a lot of new tools!

Even traits and artifacts seems good and can be used as combo with a lot of crazy stuff. I need to read again their rules because I can see some awesome interactions. Even glavewraith seems good with that +3 to charge!!

[dmorley21]

Sitting with the new book for 12ish hours, a few observations:

While some of the bubbles have dropped, this remains a very techy army.

It’s a speedy, resilient, debuff army. 

Our basic troops don’t hit as hard as they used to, and while WoT is improved, the ceiling is lower. No more double activation. However, our heroes now hit a lot harder. Kurdoss’s glowup in particular is huge.

There’s still a spot for Nagash, Krondspire, or Big-Drogg as beat sticks are limited. Though with Reaping Scythe, I wouldn’t run Nagash unless I was just looking to have fun.

Shocked at how good Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths are. Figured they’d be forgotten being older models. 

[Malakithe]

Bladegheist battleline spam works so well with army wide retreat and charge.

More warscroll leaks are up too

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

Our basic troops don’t hit as hard as they used to, and while WoT is improved, the ceiling is lower. No more double activation.

I also gave it a good think and came to the conclusion that I absolutely do not miss the infamous Nighthaunt charge. Good night, sweet prince. You gave me a few chuckles

 

Unmodified 10 on 2d6 is a 17% chance. The same as rolling a 6 on a single die. That's an impressively low chance for something that was meant to be among our main army benefits.

 

Now getting an 8, which we need for the -1 save is already a 42% chance. And it's repeatable, stackable! In an army where everything can fall back and charge. It's not unreasonable to consider the whole army getting an extra pip of rend on every weapon. Heck, we'll even see -2 and more save on the most basic Chainrasps from time to time. More "often" than ye olde Nighthaunt charge at that

 

Both MSU (multiple small unit) armies and big units that, together with healing, survive to abuse falling back and charging, will constantly see us getting stacked negatives to saves.

The more I think about it, the more I believe we'll see quite the rise in offensive power when we actually play some games. Units like Dreadscythes with their 4 attacks without rend that don't die easily will prove way more deadly over the course of a game than the first look would suggest

[Sception]

Well, at least the designers were willing to make major changes.  As for the results?

Nice faction rules, but yeah, I'm pretty skeptical of both the damage output and the points costs.  At least the latter can get fixed in updates going forward if it turns out to actually be a problem.  Would have dramatically preferred '6 to wound = ignore armor or extra rend' over '6 to hit auto wounds'

Sad to hear that the artefacts & command traits are disappointing, too.  That's been a bit of an unfortunate trend.

Still, the base faction rules /do/ sound like a ton of fun, even if the warscrolls themselves are too pillow fisted to take full advantage of them, and olynder at least seems more worthy of her mortarch title.

I may finally buy into nighthaunts, provided there's a new start collecting to provide a more reasonable entry point.  The price of chainrasps has been a particular sticking point for me, though alternate troop choices by subfaction might help me there even if a new SC box doesn't.

[Bayul]

I love how simple our Warscrolls are from now on.

I am already set von Scarlet Doom in a MSU army. Everything is expansive though. I hope a few small support heros will suffice.

[Vastus]

More I think about it, more the combination of Knight of Shrouds and the strike-last effects we have available both from Soul Cage and Wave of Terror seems very potent. With multiple Knights there are genuinely realistic scenarios where all of our units strike before all of the opponents.

Of course we are nowhere near as effective on the opponent's turn when we don't have our charge effects.

Edit: on the other end, Harridans supported by a Krulghast can probably tarpit and outlast decently well. They stack some debuffs on the charge, and hit much harder against wounded targets. Krulghast can also ping enemies a bit to activate their buff.

Knight of Shrouds + Bladegheists and Krulghast + Harridan seem like interesting combos for now.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Vastus

[Jaskier]

I found the four missing warscrolls buried in a discussion about the leaks on the Nighthaunt leaks, check the comments regarding Path to Glory leaks and you'll find them. 

[jobume]

14 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I found the four missing warscrolls buried in a discussion about the leaks on the Nighthaunt leaks, check the comments regarding Path to Glory leaks and you'll find them. 

Where? In what forum? Here on TGA?

[Vastus]

11 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I found the four missing warscrolls buried in a discussion about the leaks on the Nighthaunt leaks, check the comments regarding Path to Glory leaks and you'll find them. 

Oh thanks, found them. So the Dreadblade Harrow is now a mobile propagator of Command Abilities. Grimghasts have lost their re-rolls but gain an extra attack against hordes. Scriptor seems unchanged.

Nothing extraordinary there. Not sure if Grimghasts really measure up to Bladgheists or Harridans though.

[Vastus]

Just now, jobume said:

Where? In what forum? Here on TGA?

Nighthaunt subreddit. The thread with most comments, someone asks about Path to Glory.

[Jaskier]

I added the missing units to my summary, the changes are minor for three of the four, but Dreadblades...woof. Their utility dropped a bit as they can't slingshot teleport other Nighthaunt units with them anymore, but their damage shot up and they now act as command ability amplifiers for your general following a similar idea to how Ironjawz' Megabosses work. 

Grimghasts seem ok to me. They are 15 points cheaper than Bladegheists, have a more situational +1 attack bonus (but it can work in your opponents turn whereas Bladegheists' only ever triggers on yours) and are always Battleline but are -1 on their hit rolls comparatively. Reaped like Corn being +1 attack instead of re-rolls is largely a wash (20 attacks 4+ re-rolling averages 15 hits, 30 attacks averages 15 hits, etc) but will be better now if you give them +1 to-hit. I think you'd be fine taking them over Bladegheists outside of Scarlet Doom just for being cheaper, Battleline and in theory better off the charge. 

By the by, Olynder's once per game return D6 slain models ability is INSANE with Spirit Hosts. I'm tempted to try her with multiple blocks of 6 just to see if anyone can actually manage to kill any of the three units (as they absorb wounds for her) especially if the Hosts' have the 5++ active; the cool thing is her recursion is table-wide so they don't necessarily have to stick near her. 

Another obvious combo is a Knight of Shrouds plus Dreadscythes, have the Knight attack their target to inflict a wound/slay a model to trigger the Dreadscythes' +1 to-hit and wound against the target for their immediate subsequent activation. Any shooting attack will help trigger this too, so the earlier shout of a Krulghast alongside them makes a lot of sense. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jaskier