Clan's Cynic Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 hours ago, dirkdragonslayer said: Sad to say, but Destruction does seem to have the lowest active playerbase, at least based on this site's subforums and other forums like Dakka or Reddit. There's a big burst of activity due to Kruleboyz and a new edition, but the Destruction subforum usually only has 2-4 responses a day across all topics. It's why you almost never see a Destruction post on the front page unless there is a new release, while there is always discussions on things like Lumineth, Hedonites, Duardin, or Beasts of Chaos. Obviously forum posts aren't the complete indicator of popularity, but it can help get a rough idea on it. To be fair, the Death sub-forum was at the bottom for a long time until Ossiarchs, then Sons of Behemat led to an overtake, then Soulblight knocked it back into third place. It seems the numbers fluctuate depending on whoever is getting a new army. Considering Death received a considerable amount of attention during 2.0 I don't think Destruction are in an especially terrible place in terms of numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said: To be fair, the Death sub-forum was at the bottom for a long time until Ossiarchs, then Sons of Behemat led to an overtake, then Soulblight knocked it back into third place. It seems the numbers fluctuate depending on whoever is getting a new army. Considering Death received a considerable amount of attention during 2.0 I don't think Destruction are in an especially terrible place in terms of numbers. So Chaos vs Order is just the way to go when you want to make a successful tabletop game? Hmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan's Cynic Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 11 minutes ago, Feii said: So Chaos vs Order is just the way to go when you want to make a successful tabletop game? Hmmmmm. To be fair, Death was spinning off one WHFB army (Vampire Counts) and Destruction two (Orcs & Goblins and Ogre Kingdoms). Compare that to Chaos, with Warriors of Chaos being WHFB's most popular army, Skavens being pretty much directly imported and Daemons finding more popularity in WHFB than they did 40k. Then Order- well, Order pretty much got everything else, meaning the vast majority of armies and the new posterboy. It's no surprise Order and Chaos are the front runners. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 hours ago, dirkdragonslayer said: Sad to say, but Destruction does seem to have the lowest active playerbase, at least based on this site's subforums and other forums like Dakka or Reddit. There's a big burst of activity due to Kruleboyz and a new edition, but the Destruction subforum usually only has 2-4 responses a day across all topics. It's why you almost never see a Destruction post on the front page unless there is a new release, while there is always discussions on things like Lumineth, Hedonites, Duardin, or Beasts of Chaos. Obviously forum posts aren't the complete indicator of popularity, but it can help get a rough idea on it. I do think many people but one or two Gitz sets that never really want to play with them. They are just fun models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 Humans and Chaos are basically the GW USP. The fight against entropy, literally and figuratively. You can get orcs, dwarves, etc pretty much anywhere else. We'll see what happens obviously but much as *I* like them it feels like GW's attempt to brand basic fantasy archetypes as their own-aelves, orruks etc- is a hard sell. Soulblight and Gloomspite have definitely hit that sweet spot for me in terms of being what they are and having something to tether them to existing fantasy tropes while using AOS to push them in further interesting directions. Deepkin and OBR have been excellent as new concepts. Everyone else - meh. Either really abstract and shapeless, or just constant repetition of a theme. That's kind of AOS to a T though. Theres some excellent novelty and creativity in there but it's mainly either too vague and wacky or reads like it was written by someone who got a word of the day calendar. It's quite forced and dense. You have to really commit to it. Bottom line is it might just be a bit high concept. Old World and 40k, the main story is that humanity is under constant threat but is itself pretty irredeemable and dangerous to itself and others. But you can explain it easily. And theres very relatable start points- this is a militia defending their homes from invading raiders etc. AOS, all the realms and Gods and stuff, the lore has been written at least in part to justify the consequence of the End Times. It made sense in 2015 but now I wonder if for new players it isnt abit like watching Age of Ultron without having seen any of the previous films in the trilogy. The longer it goes, the harder it gets to become involved from scratch 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer & Pretzels Gamer Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, novakai said: i don't know about that numbers else where indicate that death is often has the lower player base and i don't think this forum is a indication of the general population, it just not much to talk about when it comes to play and list building As someone who plays and plays against all the different Destruction factions there is some definite truth here. In 2.0 someone for Sons of Behemat, for example, rapidly put out a convenient chart of all the possible builds (there weren’t many) and most people quickly gravitated to one or two. Not much to discuss. Other Destruction factions may not be as straight forward but with the possible exception of GSG neither are they that complex. This isn’t to say they only offer one or two list options but rather that if you know what “style” you want to play a Mawtribes or a Warclans list falls pretty quickly into place. How much time can you spend debating three good options for the last 100-200 points? To the extent that Kruelboyz need their tome before any of us can get that serious about our lists it is that history that is in the back of our minds. Maybe they’ll make Warclans more like GSG but until we know chances are once Destruction players see the tome we’ll “solve” pretty quickly and until then it’s efficient to wait. Again, I’m not sure Dominion has actually disappointed sales wise but I am very open to idea that box composition much weaker than Indomitus. Edited June 29, 2021 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 Another thing, although this is a broader GW trend not just limited to AOS It would be easier to sell something like these sets to beginners if it was made apparent what it was you were getting beyond a massive lump of models. The picture on the back of the current box (recieved mine today) it's just like a pattern of models, all sparsely set out. Not set our how the game plays or anything, just a load of individual models put down on a flat space. It communicates nothing besides "quantity". The difference between the sense of what components you were getting to play with on the back of the 6th edition box, below, and the current AOS set, is night and day. One looks like a boxed game, and the other more like a starter entry point into a complex concept or system. Weirdly, Dominion, which is far greater value for money, looks simultaneously more formidable while also being a bit empty and in a vacuum. And Dominion is actually the first GW boxed set to have two 1000+ plus armies, but again, that's not made clear, it's just an island of minis. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan's Cynic Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Nos said: Another thing, although this is a broader GW trend not just limited to AOS It would be easier to sell something like these sets to beginners if it was made apparent what it was you were getting beyond a massive lump of models. The picture on the back of the current box (recieved mine today) it's just like a pattern of models, all sparsely set out. Not set our how the game plays or anything, just a load of individual models put down on a flat space. It communicates nothing besides "quantity". The difference between the sense of what components you were getting to play with on the back of the 6th edition box, below, and the current AOS set, is night and day. One looks like a boxed game, and the other more like a starter entry point into a complex concept or system. Weirdly, Dominion, which is far greater value for money, looks simultaneously more formidable while also being a bit empty and in a vacuum. And Dominion is actually the first GW boxed set to have two 1000+ plus armies, but again, that's not made clear, it's just an island of minis. Indomitus/Dominion not being aimed at beginners makes some degree of sense, because beginners are unlikely to be hanging off GW's webstore at 10am come pre-order day. Wargames aren't really like video games where you splash a huge amount on external marketing, almost all of it's internally trying to shift your new product and hoping that more Lil Timmy's walk into the Games Workshop Warhammer store. Sure, people always bought the new starters for (smaller) rulebooks and value of models, but it was very much a "DESPITE them being a starter." Beginner implies they're not part of the hobby yet, so they're more likely to pick up a starter set after it's already launched. I'd be willing to bet the number of true beginners (as in, new to the hobby) who bought the old starter starts on launch day were extremely small. Even for people playing 40k who want to start AoS, Dominion would probably still be perceived as the better buy-in because they already have things like dice, tape measures, etc and understand it's a hefty bit of plastic for a decent (proportionate to individual kits anyway) price. Edited June 30, 2021 by Clan's Cynic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sowoky Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Nos said: Another thing, although this is a broader GW trend not just limited to AOS It would be easier to sell something like these sets to beginners if it was made apparent what it was you were getting beyond a massive lump of models. The picture on the back of the current box (recieved mine today) it's just like a pattern of models, all sparsely set out. Not set our how the game plays or anything, just a load of individual models put down on a flat space. It communicates nothing besides "quantity". The difference between the sense of what components you were getting to play with on the back of the 6th edition box, below, and the current AOS set, is night and day. One looks like a boxed game, and the other more like a starter entry point into a complex concept or system. Weirdly, Dominion, which is far greater value for money, looks simultaneously more formidable while also being a bit empty and in a vacuum. And Dominion is actually the first GW boxed set to have two 1000+ plus armies, but again, that's not made clear, it's just an island of minis. You're not making a valid comparison. Look up a picture of the back of 40k Command edition. Very clearly shows what your getting (and indicates it has everything needed to play). Say it with me: Dominion(and Indomitus) are not starter sets. They are limited run "launch sets" marketed towards existing players, and do not include all the tools needed to play. Edited June 30, 2021 by Sowoky 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nullius Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 I’m not sure where the idea came from that Dominion was undersold. The company wanted to avoid the supply chain issues of the last few months so they decreased the number of boxes allotted to FFG’s so as to allow the webstore to sell higher volume at greater profit. Boxes sell out: war gamers complain. Boxes don’t sell out: wargamers complain. What a perpetually Impossible to please bunch! Lol 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosskelot Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 6 hours ago, Nos said: And Dominion is actually the first GW boxed set to have two 1000+ plus armies, but again, that's not made clear, it's just an island of minis. Indomitus was two 1k armies. Plus they were also legal armies to actually use in matched play, unlike the Kruleboy half of Dominion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0deb1ue Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said: To be fair, the Death sub-forum was at the bottom for a long time until Ossiarchs, then Sons of Behemat led to an overtake, then Soulblight knocked it back into third place. It seems the numbers fluctuate depending on whoever is getting a new army. Considering Death received a considerable amount of attention during 2.0 I don't think Destruction are in an especially terrible place in terms of numbers. I think lots of factors like this affect activity on the Destruction forum: Destruction is the least competitive so attracts little of that player base/mind set with essentially one cookie cutter list in ironjawz for most of AoS 2. Very low variation in army construction with factions often having very few choices e.g IJ/BS/SoB and even GSG just got pushed into narrow subfactions with little variation due to keyword bingo. Overall army design often provides little longevity in playstyle and there’s far too much so-called “fun” being used in the design process which just seems to equate to low-power gimmicks. If you compare releases, SoB is so low effort compared to non destruction factions. One sculpt, minimal rules, more gimmick. There’s almost nothing to discuss/solve. Then there’s the ridiculously overcosted Kragnos who again has an over complicated MW on charge rule but really is another watching paint dry design who was randomly inserted for sales. Again adding very little to most destruction armies. Kruleboyz - we have a new SUBfaction being released for destruction rather than a proper faction, so is already less likely to attract the attention of new players who were not interested in orruks. Lots of this stuff adds up and I reckon puts people off destruction. Maybe Kruleboyz will be different? Edited June 30, 2021 by C0deb1ue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bosskelot said: Indomitus was two 1k armies. Plus they were also legal armies to actually use in matched play, unlike the Kruleboy half of Dominion. That's a good point. These orcs are not a legal army, and no battleline of their specific faction can currently be purchased. Do note that I'm still on the fence about Dominion. I might not want to play the game, be neutral about over half the models, but the orcs that remain are just that good. With spare bits the hobgrots might also become a lot better, and these Stormcast at least make for pretty statues. Edited June 30, 2021 by zilberfrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 7 hours ago, Nos said: It would be easier to sell something like these sets to beginners if it was made apparent what it was you were getting beyond a massive lump of models. Indomitus & Dominion aren't really intended for beginners. They're intended for existing hobbyists as a good point to jump into the new version plus provide a bucket of new models to add to existing armies or start new ones. There will be a series of beginner sets released that include everything you need to play - so dice, ruler (thingies) etc. Personally one of the confusions with both AoS and 40k is that you need to start off at 2000 points and matched play is the only way to play. For a new player it's far easier to learn the game with a handful of units and just using the core rules. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feii Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 8 hours ago, Nos said: Another thing, although this is a broader GW trend not just limited to AOS It would be easier to sell something like these sets to beginners if it was made apparent what it was you were getting beyond a massive lump of models. The picture on the back of the current box (recieved mine today) it's just like a pattern of models, all sparsely set out. Not set our how the game plays or anything, just a load of individual models put down on a flat space. It communicates nothing besides "quantity". The difference between the sense of what components you were getting to play with on the back of the 6th edition box, below, and the current AOS set, is night and day. One looks like a boxed game, and the other more like a starter entry point into a complex concept or system. Weirdly, Dominion, which is far greater value for money, looks simultaneously more formidable while also being a bit empty and in a vacuum. And Dominion is actually the first GW boxed set to have two 1000+ plus armies, but again, that's not made clear, it's just an island of minis. But if you buy 2 boxes you do not have 2 decent 2000k armies because yndrasta limits you in one box and 40 hobgrots and the second big boy is meh. furthermore the points in the box are already outdated and their bettletomes will have new points. Stupid. meanwhile buying 2 indomitus boxes felt good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimDork Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 My hope is that the proper "starter sets" which will presumably follow in a few months will provide a better add on for dominion than buying 2. The 40k command edition is pretty good. Good quality scenery, good army expansions. I hope they do something similar for AoS. Do we categorically know yet that the Hobgrots are not conditional battleline (in Kruleboyz allegiance perhaps?)? Does seem weird to not give a legal force in the box? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeryenn Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 I think that GW could increase interest in Kruelboyz if they showed other remaining minis. Crocodile centerpiece is something that could sell the faction alone. Flying warboss also sounds interesting. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 GW: we learned from Indomitus and have produced a lot of boxes, we are really confident it will not sell out right away. Internet: it will be sold out! Not all of us will get it... Panic, Desaster! Conspiracy theories. Reality: stock lasts longer than two weeks. Internet: noone is buying it! Panic, Desaster! Conspiracy theories. Me: Just another day in GW hobby forums... 11 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 "The perfect way to get started with the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar" Literally the first thing it says below Dominion on the webpage I'm talking about the marketing and advertising from GW itself here. That's what people new to the hobby are going to base their decisions on, not your second hand assumptions. So to say it's not aimed at beginners when the product description includes the following "If you’re looking to plunge headfirst into the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, look no further than this glorious boxed set" "This supplementary booklet is exclusive to the Dominion box and provides newcomers with the perfect starting point for the Warhammer Age of Sigmar hobby, including the story and gameplay rules for a fateful clash between the Stormcast Eternals and Kruleboyz included in the box." To say to a beginner thst it's not aimed at them with that description is tountamount to gas lighting quite frankly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 34 minutes ago, Koala said: GW: we learned from Indomitus and have produced a lot of boxes, we are really confident it will not sell out right away. Internet: it will be sold out! Not all of us will get it... Panic, Desaster! Conspiracy theories. Reality: stock lasts longer than two weeks. Internet: noone is buying it! Panic, Desaster! Conspiracy theories. Me: Just another day in GW hobby forums... Yeah, I'm not worried here. I can see a few reasons why it would sell less than Indomitus, but the set being available a bit longer is good, in my opinion. Thing to note, The Internet isn't a single voice. I have seen people that criticised GW heavily for Cursed City praise GW for this, but there are still quite a few people that want AoS to fail entirely, and they are shouting at this moment, with some others being caught up in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still-young Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Aeryenn said: I think that GW could increase interest in Kruelboyz if they showed other remaining minis. Crocodile centerpiece is something that could sell the faction alone. Flying warboss also sounds interesting. Personally I know my resolve would have been much lower to non-existent had we seen a giant Croc model for the faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, RuneBrush said: Personally one of the confusions with both AoS and 40k is that you need to start off at 2000 points and matched play is the only way to play. For a new player it's far easier to learn the game with a handful of units and just using the core rules. I blame the previous and existing player base for this being an issue, because just like the fantasy ‘old guard’ people are ‘gatekeeping’ new guy rocks up with his 1 cool hero and a couple of small units looking for a game at the store, everyone laughs at them and says ‘come back when you’ve got 2000pts’ Matched Play is NOT the only way to play, in fact, the game is actually designed around Open Play (as proven by AoS1 pre Generals Handbook). However, Matched Play is the ‘easiest’ way to play with people at the local store 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Feii said: But if you buy 2 boxes you do not have 2 decent 2000k armies because yndrasta limits you in one box and 40 hobgrots and the second big boy is meh. furthermore the points in the box are already outdated and their bettletomes will have new points. Stupid. meanwhile buying 2 indomitus boxes felt good. Just like the Start Collecting boxes, you aren’t supposed to buy multiple boxes and build a full army out of them. They’re supposed to ‘get you started’ with an army Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Nos said: "The perfect way to get started with the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar" Literally the first thing it says below Dominion on the webpage I'm talking about the marketing and advertising from GW itself here. That's what people new to the hobby are going to base their decisions on, not your second hand assumptions. So to say it's not aimed at beginners when the product description includes the following "If you’re looking to plunge headfirst into the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, look no further than this glorious boxed set" "This supplementary booklet is exclusive to the Dominion box and provides newcomers with the perfect starting point for the Warhammer Age of Sigmar hobby, including the story and gameplay rules for a fateful clash between the Stormcast Eternals and Kruleboyz included in the box." To say to a beginner thst it's not aimed at them with that description is tountamount to gas lighting quite frankly Everybody is ‘new’ in the context of AoS3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nos Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Just now, Joseph Mackay said: Everybody is ‘new’ in the context of AoS3 Everybody includes beginners to the hobby then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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