AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Eternalis]

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Q:Is it okay to use ‘proxy’ models to stand in for models that I do not have but want to use in a game? For example, using a Slaughterpriest model to represent a Bloodsecrator, or using Stormcast Eternals models painted in the colours of the Hammers of Sigmar to represent Stormcast Eternals from a different Stormhost?
A: The use of proxy models is generally frowned upon, because doing so can confuse the other players (and sometimes even yourself ), and because it spoils the spectacle and aesthetic of the game. Because of this, you can only use proxy models if you’ve gained your opponent’s permission to do so before the game begins.

Oh boy, we have to paint with GW official schemes now?

[sorokyl]

3 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

Oh boy, we have to paint with GW official schemes now?

it's weird that was part of the question, but it's not part of the answer.  I do not consider a model painted a different scheme to be a "proxy model"


Question of my own, from core rules FAQ:
 

Quote

1.5.1 MEASURING DISTANCES Q: Say I can set up a unit wholly within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and there is an objective set up 12" from the edge of the battlefield. Can I set up my unit so that it is within 6" of the objective?
A: Yes.

This seems wrong?? If a model must be within 6" of the edge of the battlefield, it can not be 6" away from an objective, (which is a precise point 0" wide) that is 12" from the edge. 

[Isotop]

9 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

it's weird that was part of the question, but it's not part of the answer.  I do not consider a model painted a different scheme to be a "proxy model"


Question of my own, from core rules FAQ:
 

This seems wrong?? If a model must be within 6" of the edge of the battlefield, it can not be 6" away from an objective, (which is a precise point 0" wide) that is 12" from the edge. 

The answer is correct and it worked like this all of 2.0 too. One point of the models base can be exactly 6" away from the edge of the battlefield (and therefore within 6" of the edge). The same point can be exactly 6" away from the objective marker (and therefore within 6" of it). You have to remember that being exacly x from something means you are within x of that something.

EDIT: here is a link to an older discussion about the topic. I guess Aos 3 did not change the relevant rules used there (do not have the rules at hand atm). I hope this helps.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Isotop

[Reinholt]

11 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

it's weird that was part of the question, but it's not part of the answer.  I do not consider a model painted a different scheme to be a "proxy model"


Question of my own, from core rules FAQ:
 

This seems wrong?? If a model must be within 6" of the edge of the battlefield, it can not be 6" away from an objective, (which is a precise point 0" wide) that is 12" from the edge. 

This is actually a much weirder question than most people expect because it depends on a lot of underlying assumptions being made from a mathematical perspective.

So here is the question, somewhat more properly described:

"If I place a model exactly 6" away from an object on the board, such that a perfectly constructed 6" line could be placed between the object and model I placed without overlapping either of them but being directly adjacent to both of them such that if I moved either the object or the model even an infinitely small amount closer I would overlap the line, am I within 6" of the object or not?"

And the answer to that is "what do you mean by within" from a mathematical perspective, or rather, do you need to overlap or do you need to just be adjacent? As, back to our perfect conceptual example, if you need to overlap then it's pretty trivial to see that you do not (you are exactly touching the 6" line but not overlapping it at all), but if you just need to touch any point that is 6" away (as in, you need to be adjacent to the line rather than overlapping the line), then you clearly are within 6".

I just hope GW knows they've accidentally waded into one of the most hilarious parts of math here (boundaries).

Edited July 2, 2021 by Reinholt

[Zeblasky]

Sooo, Sisters and Handgunners owerwatch got hit hard, as now it's just an Unleash Hell without command being issued and it carries -1 with it. Just why Sisters got +20 points on top of that qq

By the way, you can issue an Unleash Hell command ability together with such an inbuild Unleash Hell, correct?

[Reinholt]

1 minute ago, Zeblasky said:

Sooo, Sisters and Handgunners owerwatch got hit hard, as now it's just an Unleash Hell without command being issued and it carries -1 with it. Just why Sisters got +20 points on top of that qq

By the way, you can issue an Unleash Hell command ability together with such an inbuild Unleash Hell, correct?

@ZeblaskyDo we just call this Unleash Hell(s)?

 

Edit: why did adding an s to Hell get censored of all things!

Edited July 2, 2021 by Reinholt

[GrimDork]

17 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

Oh boy, we have to paint with GW official schemes now?

I think it's always been encouraged to be played this way. Using 40k as an example you shouldn't paint your marines as ultramarines then say you are using space wolves rules as it's just confusing and goes against WYSIWYG.

You could tho paint a custom scheme and say it uses the rules for space wolves or ultramarines or whatever. Same principles apply to AoS Stormhosts or faction specific schemes.

Better off doing custom custom scheme, as it avoids this issue.

[azdimy]

That s why I repainted my hammer of sigmar to my own colour scheme. GW had that requirement in their tournament pack already

[Chikout]

2 minutes ago, azdimy said:

That s why I repainted my hammer of sigmar to my own colour scheme. GW had that requirement in their tournament pack already

Didn't everyone ignore it though? If the community rejects something en masse, there's not much GW can do about it.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Chikout

[Howdyhedberg]

Well, in Lumineth FAQ it says that the twins fight in ymetrica scheme, but they are from Iliatha. I will say that my army is from "subfaction" but they have clothes from ymetrica kinda.

 

[yukishiro1]

Well, now we know why OBR points didn't go up much at all, I guess: the FAQ basically does nothing to make them viable in the new system. RDP is essentially unchanged, you just get an extra RDP if you go second, and battalions got nerfed to only give you the extra once per game. Still can't use any of the new command abilities. RDP went from something that was better than having CP to something that's almost always worse because it is so much more limiting. 

Feels like a bit of a bait and switch, honestly. They get you into this army with the cool RDP system that's fundamentally different from CP and better in almost all cases, only to replace it in 3.0 with a system that's basically just like the new CP system, except worse because you don't get any of the cool new stuff everybody else does. 

 

edit: I can't even figure out from the FAQ whether they're intending to let you use the same RDP ability more than once per phase or not:

Quote

Relentless discipline points are used to issue a command in the same manner as command points, but can only be used to issue a command with command abilities that appear on a warscroll that has the Ossiarch Bonereapers keyword, or to issue a command with an Ossiarch Bonereaper Legion command ability, or to issue the Unstoppable Advance command below.

Does this mean the once per phase limitation on command abilities applies because the command is issued "in the same manner as command points," or does it not apply because that's just about how you issue, not about how many times you can issue?

If I had to guess, the limitation on command abilities still applies and you can only use RDP command abilities once per phase as well since they're still command abilities, they just use a different currency - which is another massive nerf to RDP.

But then it says this:

Quote

Page 104 – Kavalos Deathriders, Deathrider Wedge Add the following sentence to the end of the rule: ‘The same unit cannot benefit from this command ability more than once per turn.’

Which is literally nonsensical unless you can use RDP abilities more than once per phase. So this makes it sound like RDP is an exception to the normal rule and you can use them more than once per phase. How totally confusing, and it would have been so easy to clear it up by just saying so explicitly. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Doko]

Yes a huge nerf to sisters and handgunners,no longer triple shooting and moreover a nerf of -1 hit where they hadnt.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Doko

[Doko]

On 7/1/2021 at 4:04 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm was looking at a realistic amount of buffs, so this is what I assumed:

Handgunners get +2 to hit from somewhere. There are a few ways to do this. They have a +1 on their warscroll, a Hurricanum can grant +1, the Freeguild General gives +1 to hit and wound and there are probably other ways to do this as well. I think you can find a way to give them +2 to hit most of the time. Losing the warscroll +1 to overwatch is not that crucial, by the way, since they also don't suffer a -1 to hit like when using Unleash Hell if they use their warscroll ability.

In a scenario where everything goes your way, they could potentially also have +1 to wound and reroll 1s to hit, but I have not assumed this. Just the less situational +2 to hit overall, so that they are at +1 to hit after Unleash Hell.

For Lumineth, I was going from memory on the numbers, but assuming Aimed Shot and mortals on 5+. You will sometimes probably also get other bonuses (reroll hits, +1 to hit from somewhere), but so can Freeguild. I just want to consider a likely scenario.

So anyway, here are the numbers head to head:

Save	Handgunners (double overwatch)	Sentinels
2+	8.89	10.47
3+	13.33	10.88
4+	17.78	11.28
5+	22.22	11.68
6+	26.67	12.08
-	26.67	12.08

Personally, I think the comparison is fair. Sure, Sentinels and Handgunners ultimately have different strengths and weaknesses. But they are not so different in their function that comparing them does not make sense at all. And in the context of Unleash Hell, I would say it's a fair conclusion that Handgunners benefit more than Sentinels, in general. That does not have to mean that they are the better unit overall, of course.

Now handgunner have got a 33%(more even if they havent +2 hit) nerf where sentinels as allways nothing.

So now the numbers are betters for sentinels and this is being wizard and having DOUBLE range than handgunners

[Beliman]

Common people!

You already knew that most save rerolls were going to be changed by a flat +1 saves (or something like that).

Same with stand&shoot and this kind of stuff (I don't know why Last Words is still available... edit: and it seems Iliatha gimmick too).

That's exactly what Soulblight Gravelords and Core Rules were telling us, don't act like you didn't see that incoming.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Beliman
Iliatha gimmick too!

[Fert]

12 minutes ago, Doko said:

Now handgunner have got a 33%(more even if they havent +2 hit) nerf where sentinels as allways nothing.

So now the numbers are betters for sentinels and this is being wizard and having DOUBLE range than handgunners

Sentinels, from Ilithia, can have one unit unleash hell, then have an adjacent unit unleash hell for free (granted it meets the stipulations)...  So gross.  Worse yet... Issue it for free from Shrine... then double it up from said Ilithia ability.  All the while charging your opponent double for his command abilities via Total eclipse.  Rough stuff.

[yukishiro1]

On the plus side, at least Twinstones got nerfed. A small something, but it is something. LRL casting is going to be a bit less reliable now, between the Teclis points nerf, miscasts, and losing the effective +2 across the army. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by yukishiro1

[CitizenX]

Question that has come up with the local playgroup and I was curious on your thoughts. Does a warscroll that says a unit is "‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent." count as your one use of that CA for the phase when you activate it?

 

 

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, CitizenX said:

Question that has come up with the local playgroup and I was curious on your thoughts. Does a warscroll that says a unit is "‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent." count as your one use of that CA for the phase when you activate it?

Some Core Battalions have the same description.

Imho, Yes, it counts.
Because to use a Command Ability, a Leader/Champion/whatever Issue the order, a unit Recieve the order and spend 1 CP. This abilities just doens't need a Leader/Champion/Whatever to Issue the order and the order doesn't need a CP to be used:

Quote

Each command ability will say when it can be used and what effect it has on the unit that receives it.
A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1
command in the same phase. In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the
same phase (even for different units).

 

[CitizenX]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Some Core Battalions have the same description.

Imho, Yes, it counts.
Because to use a Command Ability, a Leader/Champion/whatever Issue the order, a unit Recieve the order and spend 1 CP. This abilities just doens't need a Leader/Champion/Whatever to Issue the order and the order doesn't need a CP to be used:

 

That's how I read it as well, but three other players have told me I am wrong, so I wanted to poll elsewhere.

[GrimDork]

5 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Some Core Battalions have the same description.

Imho, Yes, it counts.
Because to use a Command Ability, a Leader/Champion/whatever Issue the order, a unit Recieve the order and spend 1 CP. This abilities just doens't need a Leader/Champion/Whatever to Issue the order and the order doesn't need a CP to be used:

 

Funny, I read it the other way. That the battalion CA use was free and didn't count as the command being issued, meaning it could be done again. 

[Zeblasky]

On 7/1/2021 at 5:04 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm was looking at a realistic amount of buffs, so this is what I assumed:

Handgunners get +2 to hit from somewhere. There are a few ways to do this. They have a +1 on their warscroll, a Hurricanum can grant +1, the Freeguild General gives +1 to hit and wound and there are probably other ways to do this as well. I think you can find a way to give them +2 to hit most of the time. Losing the warscroll +1 to overwatch is not that crucial, by the way, since they also don't suffer a -1 to hit like when using Unleash Hell if they use their warscroll ability.

In a scenario where everything goes your way, they could potentially also have +1 to wound and reroll 1s to hit, but I have not assumed this. Just the less situational +2 to hit overall, so that they are at +1 to hit after Unleash Hell.

For Lumineth, I was going from memory on the numbers, but assuming Aimed Shot and mortals on 5+. You will sometimes probably also get other bonuses (reroll hits, +1 to hit from somewhere), but so can Freeguild. I just want to consider a likely scenario.

So anyway, here are the numbers head to head:

Save	Handgunners (double overwatch)	Sentinels
2+	8.89	10.47
3+	13.33	10.88
4+	17.78	11.28
5+	22.22	11.68
6+	26.67	12.08
-	26.67	12.08

 

I was going to make a big post about that btw, buuuut it became a bit irrelevant now. The thing is, to get such stats, Handgunners need +2 to hit outside of their warscroll, because their +1 to hit will not work when enemy is within 3. And by the old rules, half of their shots would have been under -1 to hit from Unleash Hell. The only way to get only +2 to hit for Handgunners is by playing Excelsis. Hurricanum and General CA give +2 to hit and +1 to wound instead, so those stats are actually unrealistic for any other city. I will make some stats for fun later btw.

[Beliman]

6 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Funny, I read it the other way. That the battalion CA use was free and didn't count as the command being issued, meaning it could be done again. 

But Core Rules says exactly what you need to use a Command Ability (6.1):

This kind of abilities says: "without the command being issued and without a command point being spent". So, the Command is still being used, you just ignore the CP and who Issue it, but you still needs a unit to recieve it.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Beliman

[yukishiro1]

They still receive the command ability, which means that particular unit definitely can't use that command ability (or any other) in that phase.

Whether you can use Unleash Hell on a different unit on the same phase is ambiguous, IMO. Does a command ability count as being "used" if it isn't issued? Who knows, the rules don't define what "using" a command ability actually is. 

It seems like the intent is that you can't, but who really knows? We know from experience that trying to figure out GW's intent when it comes to AOS rules is an impossible task.

Edited July 2, 2021 by yukishiro1

[CitizenX]

Which to me means we fall back on common usage. If I was talking about the rules interaction I cannot think of any other way to say it other than they used the ability. 

[Christopher Rowe]

I posted about this on the book of faces and appear to have done nothing but generate an unfortunate contretemps. I also wrote the rules team and received an auto-reply (we'll take a look, meantime use the rules as written, watch for updated errata, etc).

The new errata for Seraphon add this:

Page 95 – Engine of the Gods, Description
Change the Description to:
‘SKINK PRIEST: An Engine of the Gods is commanded by a Skink Priest.

CREW: This model has a skink crew that attack with Meteoric Javelins. For rules purposes, the crew are treated in the same manner as a mount.

And that's it for Engine of the Gods. It seems pretty clear to me that the Skink commanding the Engine is a Priest and can therefore do Priestly stuff, which right now boils down chanting the generic prayers for this unit.

However, Rule 20.0 of the Core Rules (not modified by the errata) reads thusly:

A unit with the PRIEST keyword on its warscroll is a PRIEST.

Which seems to me to mean that a unit without the keyword is not a PRIEST.

This is probably just a rules-as-written vs. rules-as-intended issue, and why they would put that language in the errata at all if the unit wasn't intended to be a PRIEST is a mystery to me. But, since I'm not a GW rules designer, neither can I claim any special knowledge of their intentions.

ETA: The negligible points bump the unit received seems to argue against the notion that it received a significant new ability.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Christopher Rowe