Getting Priced Out

[JackStreicher]

I actually dislike the short life span of the Books, it makes them worthless the moment you bought them and decrease the overall felt value of the game.
Yet I like constant updates to the game and new units.... 

I am usually gifting away out of date books (or putting them into public Book-Sharing containers) since no one would buy those anyway

Idk how to solve the issue from GW‘s perspective (they want to keep creating revenue by the new books).

 

 

[zilberfrid]

34 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I can see the point of this and boy would my wallet be happy, but it also sounds incredibly boring as well.

There has been battletomes yes, but actually very little in terms of new AoS models. In general I'd love to see GW give current factions more attention and update stuff, that should still sell some models without messing too much with rulesets all the times. New units means new rules, which requires expansion books at the very least with the current model. 

I'd love to see a more elegant way to add to existing books with new rules and models. The Tome Celestial from WD is pretty cool, but I don't think the magazine format is quite right for these things.

GW loves releasing all these warbands for the specialist games, as they can just put the rules self contained in a box and ship it. If we could get a similar thing for AoS that would be great. Add a warscroll card or whatever, otherwise it takes so darn long for "your dudes" to get anything new and cool without regular edition updates.

I got an AoS warscroll with my Thundrik's Profiteers, and I think the Loondrinmaster got that as well (came out after the book), no reason why that couldn't be done with other new model releases.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

a lorry taking 20% longer to load means less lorries out the door. 

Fewer.

🤪

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

I can see the point of this and boy would my wallet be happy, but it also sounds incredibly boring as well.

There has been battletomes yes, but actually very little in terms of new AoS models. In general I'd love to see GW give current factions more attention and update stuff, that should still sell some models without messing too much with rulesets all the times. New units means new rules, which requires expansion books at the very least with the current model. 

I'd love to see a more elegant way to add to existing books with new rules and models. The Tome Celestial from WD is pretty cool, but I don't think the magazine format is quite right for these things.

GW loves releasing all these warbands for the specialist games, as they can just put the rules self contained in a box and ship it. If we could get a similar thing for AoS that would be great. Add a warscroll card or whatever, otherwise it takes so darn long for "your dudes" to get anything new and cool without regular edition updates.

That is kind of my point. By not having to have a rapid fire battletome release schedule every three years, they have more space to release updated material. That's why I'd have two campaign events each year, each of which comes with a medium update relevant to it: so bigger than what we got with the tomes in most cases, and then one really big update a year, which is basically a new tome long before the new edition.

I think that would give us more than enough to keep things exciting, without being overwhelming, which it certainly is now. In other words I think we basicaly agree, but just worded things differently.

As to putting warscroll cards in the box... they do?

There is a warscroll at the end of almost every instruction booklet, and they're all free online. While tournament players would likely disagree, the Battletome doesn't actually contain anything which is essential to playing a game with an army. Its just a source of optional rules and extras to make that army feel more thematic. Clearly they also boost the power level of the army, so anyone playing competitively doesn't really consider them optional. But as far as the architecture of the system goes that's 100% what they are. Everything you can't play without is free.

[Joseph Mackay]

11 hours ago, plavski said:

A lot of third parties in the UK are hit with preference being given to first party selling. For example, WaylandGames didn't get their Necomunda pre-order delivery so have had to delay shipping to customers. Likewise the Space Marine codex was out of stock for weeks despite being in stock at GW.

I feel it’s worth pointing out that gw have separate allocations of stock for their own retail stores, their website and 3rd party retailers. Stock levels of one have nothing to do with stock levels of the other

edit: I also think it’s unfair for people to expect them to shift stock around so the 3rd parties have ‘enough’ at the expense of their own stores. If a 3rd party doesn’t have stock? Well they’ve still got all the other games and products they sell. If a gw store doesn’t have stock? They go out of business for failing to meet sales targets. This is a tough pill to sallow for some, but gw should be prioritising their own stores over 3rd parties

Edited November 5, 2020 by Joseph Mackay

[zilberfrid]

I am not a fan of much of GW's business strategy, but prioritising their own webshop and brick and mortar stores over third party sellers is not a bad idea. They are more expensive, but then, they do have the best stock. Nothing wrong with that.

[Overread]

GW also has essentially two sets of products, those supplied to 3rd parties at trade and those supplied at less discount. The result is there are some products that you can get from a local GW store or online which basically cost you the same if you were to get them from a 3rd party. So there's no net saving for the customer. 

This means when GW does a drive for their own stores, customers can still get some products from GW which aren't costing them more.

[Scurvydog]

23 minutes ago, Overread said:

GW also has essentially two sets of products, those supplied to 3rd parties at trade and those supplied at less discount. The result is there are some products that you can get from a local GW store or online which basically cost you the same if you were to get them from a 3rd party. So there's no net saving for the customer. 

This means when GW does a drive for their own stores, customers can still get some products from GW which aren't costing them more.

The difference is staggering though, with some webshop selling around 25% below GW's own prices, even physical stores using GW prices at least have some kind of membership savings (often 10%) around here, so going to GWs own webshop to order anything seems like throwing money out of the window and does not make much sense. Even regarding stock, I'd rather save 25% and wait for the 3rd party retailer to order it home for me.

I ordered a Mega Gargant from a UK 3rd party retailer and got it send for free to my door in a different country and it was still roughly 30% cheaper than just buying at GW. Why anyone at all shops there I don't know and why GW does not align pricing somehow baffles me.

[Overread]

@Scurvydog yes but I'm talking about the products that were once "direct order only" as in you could only get them from GW and which even now, whilst you can get them from a 3rd party store, the discounts for them are typically down to £1 or so. Basically very small differences. Like I said there's basically two inventories; the ones you identify where prices might be 25% discounted or more; and the old direct order only where discounts are much more marginal. 

 

[Sleboda]

Stores selling at a discount are foolish. Time and time and time again as a GW trade salesman I saw discounters go under while full service, full price stores that maybe offered some sort of loyalty program stuck around.

 

Sure, as customers we like getting our stuff for less, but from a retail perspective, discounting is pretty much suicide.

[zilberfrid]

17 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Stores selling at a discount are foolish. Time and time and time again as a GW trade salesman I saw discounters go under while full service, full price stores that maybe offered some sort of loyalty program stuck around.

Sure, as customers we like getting our stuff for less, but from a retail perspective, discounting is pretty much suicide.

It really depends. Selling at a loss is a bad idea, but if you still have a margin after discounting a bit, you're more likely to attract custumers then when you try to get the most margin out of a product.

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Stores selling at a discount are foolish. Time and time and time again as a GW trade salesman I saw discounters go under while full service, full price stores that maybe offered some sort of loyalty program stuck around.

 

Sure, as customers we like getting our stuff for less, but from a retail perspective, discounting is pretty much suicide.

Bit of a sweeping statement there.

Emerald (Australia) and Element (UK) seem to do very well for themselves, amongst others. 

I'm not aware of any full-price, 3rd-party retailer here in Australia that is thriving, whereas Emerald have just moved into new (much larger) premises and are moving literally pallets upon pallets of stock every week.

Edited November 5, 2020 by PlasticCraic

[MKsmash]

I think I've purchased at retail price from GW only a few times. I have always, and will always, keep ordering through local stores for 20% off. They have been around since before I was born, and aren't in danger of going under(as far as I know, of course) 

Edited November 5, 2020 by MKsmash

[PlasticCraic]

9 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Why anyone at all shops there I don't know and why GW does not align pricing somehow baffles me.

Agreed with the first point, but the second point is a little trickier.  Officially, they do align their prices: RRP is the same in a trade or GW store.  The issue is that you have to allow your distributors (FLGS) some kind of margin, otherwise they obviously don't have a business.  So you sell to trade customers below what you sell for in your own retail store.

It's then largely up to the retailer how much margin they take for themselves, and how much they pass on to their customers.  I have heard suggestions that there is a cap on how much discount they are allowed to offer in some countries, in order to prevent a race to the bottom and 3rd parties competing themselves out of business, but I can't confirm that (maybe someone else can). 

If GW dropped their prices 20%, you're back in the same situation, but deflated.  You still have to support your distributors if you want them to sell this stuff for you, and that still means selling to them at prices below what you sell to the public. 

The only way to fully align prices would be to force 3rd party sellers to charge full retail (and keep all the margin for themselves), but that's problematic in terms of legality / restrictive practices (would vary by territory).

[Clan's Cynic]

8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Stores selling at a discount are foolish. Time and time and time again as a GW trade salesman I saw discounters go under while full service, full price stores that maybe offered some sort of loyalty program stuck around.

 

Sure, as customers we like getting our stuff for less, but from a retail perspective, discounting is pretty much suicide.

I haven't known a single independent store that's offered any less than 10% off in the last ten or so years, the only exceptions being the larger toy companies who don't really offer anything less than RRP anyway and certainly never LFGS'. 

[Overread]

I'm also hard pressed to think of any hobby store 3rd party that isn't offering discounts. Again the only places I can think of that don't are those who aren't really hobby shops at all. Ergo its just a product and not a strong target market for them.

 

As for why people buy from GW, there can be many reasons including and not limited too:

1) Direct order only. GW has those products which were once direct order only, but are now just not discounted for 3rd parties. So the GW and 3rd party prices are basically the same. Even the big stores like element and Firestorm and Wayland only offer a few £s difference at best. 

2) GW store has more stock on shelf. Like it or not people like to walk away from shops with products in hand not orders to come back next week. A GW store stocking only GW merchandise is going to likely have more on the shelf than most 3rd parties. So might be you want a specific model and your 3rd party hasn't got it, so you go to the GW to get it today rather than wait a week or two. 

3) Don't know any better/no better on offer. Perhaps they just don't know that 3rd parties online/in person offer better prices. Or they don't have any local store to shop and and otherwise don't shop online (by choice, by situation or heck because they are too young to own a card to shop online etc..).

4) Local support. Their local GW might also be where they game and the local "hub" that other gamers hang out at and organise events through and such. Even if they might game at another venue, the local store often helps greatly in recruiting new gamers, promoting the game, welcoming people in and being a focal point. This shouldn't be underestimated in importance. 

3rd parties can be similar, but they are much more open to the whims of the owners who might value other lines more so - eg Magic the Gathering might get far more table time; evenings; organised events and promoting than the wargames. 

5) A sense of desire to support the company direct. Yes GW is far from going to the wall, but for the same reasons people like to support local companies, they can also like to support the bigger end of the scale. So if they enjoy GW products they might be happy to spend more so that GW gets a greater share. For them its likely that their hobby budget is easily covered by their income. So they've far less pressure to find or want to find cheaper options. 

 

I'm sure there are many more reasons. Suffice it to say that paying more for a product is not always a bad thing in the world. Indeed sometimes when things run by that mantra both sides end up losing out in the fight for cheaper. 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Bit of a sweeping statement there.

Emerald (Australia) and Element (UK) seem to do very well for themselves, amongst others. 

I'm not aware of any full-price, 3rd-party retailer here in Australia that is thriving, whereas Emerald have just moved into new (much larger) premises and are moving literally pallets upon pallets of stock every week.

:shrug:

I can really only relate my experiences as a sales guy who worked with hundreds and hundreds of stores across the entirety of the US. Of course nothing is 100% or absolute, but the overwhelming, vast, huge evidence from years and years of experience shows that (at the risk of offending any retailers here) store owners who discount, especially at higher rates, go under and it's usually because they have no idea what their actual operating costs are. They discount, see increased volume, and assume they're succeeding when in actuality they are hemorrhaging the profits they need to stay in business long term.

To super simplify:

The retailer sells one game at full retail.

He discounts 15% and sells two.

"Oh my!" he thinks, "What if I sell at 90% off?"

He discounts 90% and sells 500 ...

... and that's the end of his store.

 

Like I said, simplified, but it illustrates the point.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Sleboda

[Sleboda]

23 minutes ago, Overread said:

GW store has more stock on shelf. Like it or not people like to walk away from shops with products in hand not orders to come back next week. A GW store stocking only GW merchandise is going to likely have more on the shelf than most 3rd parties. So might be you want a specific model and your 3rd party hasn't got it, so you go to the GW to get it today rather than wait a week or two. 

The core idea there is so true! I'll piggyback on that to say that I'll pay full retail at a store with on-hand stock and great service.

In mean, my god, I've been on a quest to find an honest, highly-communicative, reliable mail order supplier for years. Literally years and multiple stores. The lies. The delays. The silence. The lack of stock. No discount is worth it if you can't get what you want, when you want it.

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

:shrug:

I can really only relate my experiences as a sales guy who worked with hundreds and hundreds of stores across the entirety of the US. Of course nothing is 100% or absolute, but the overwhelming, vast, huge evidence from years and years of experience shows that (at the risk of offending any retailers here) store owners who discount, especially at higher rates, go under and it's usually because they have no idea what their actual operating costs are. They discount, see increased volume, and assume they're succeeding when in actuality they are hemorrhaging the profits they need to stay in business long term.

To super simplify:

The retailer sells one game at full retail.

He discounts 15% and sells two.

"Oh my!" he thinks, "What if I sell at 90% off?"

He discounts 90% and sells 500 ...

... and that's the end of his store.

 

Like I said, simplified, but it illustrates the point.

 

Yup, the examples I cited were from the UK and Australia (which are the markets I know).  Could well be the case that your experience is true of one place and time, but doesn't necessarily translate to another place and time. 

For example, one potential cultural difference is that the FLGS is more of a community hub in the USA (in line with your "full service" comment), whereas in Australia people play more in their gaming clubs or friendship groups, and retail is highly commoditized and mostly online. 

There are of course exceptions, but that does seem to be the trend - I'm sure somebody will read this who loves playing at Emerald Games, and I envy them, but that's not why they're shifting pallets every week.  That's mostly going out around the country in little brown boxes.

[Sleboda]

7 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

For example, one potential cultural difference is that the FLGS is more of a community hub in the USA (in line with your "full service" comment), whereas in Australia people play more in their gaming clubs or friendship groups, and retail is highly commoditized and mostly online. 

Definitely some truth there!

When I used to work with stores, we tried to give them all sorts of tools to promote customer loyalty and in-store participation from customers. The smartest stores would ask me if we could please open a GW store near them. They knew that GW stores are basically recruitment centers, generating new gamers, but were also not as "in touch" with the locals as the indy stores could be. The indy stores could capitalize on the recruitment work of the GW stores by providing a more connected, intimate, personal experience than the GW stores. The indy became the community center, in effect.

[PlasticCraic]

Interesting!  And as you said, smart.

[Ggom]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

:shrug:

I can really only relate my experiences as a sales guy who worked with hundreds and hundreds of stores across the entirety of the US. Of course nothing is 100% or absolute, but the overwhelming, vast, huge evidence from years and years of experience shows that (at the risk of offending any retailers here) store owners who discount, especially at higher rates, go under and it's usually because they have no idea what their actual operating costs are. They discount, see increased volume, and assume they're succeeding when in actuality they are hemorrhaging the profits they need to stay in business long term.

To super simplify:

The retailer sells one game at full retail.

He discounts 15% and sells two.

"Oh my!" he thinks, "What if I sell at 90% off?"

He discounts 90% and sells 500 ...

... and that's the end of his store.

 

Like I said, simplified, but it illustrates the point.

 

Thats why they shouldnt sell at 90% off...

I’m lucky to live near a large gaming store that also sells online. They offer 20% off and have been in business for decades (they just moved into a much larger store with a better location, and are clearly doing well)  The key I think is reach. To make an equally simplified argument:

Selling 1 more unit at 15% off is worth it if your customer base is large enough where your more competitive price means your margin is higher because of that 1 extra unit . It’s an equation with many variables where the goal of the seller is to find a local maximum for margin. That may shift to either a discount or a premium depending heavily on customer base size, demographic, rarity of product, etc.

Smaller stores are constrained by total possible customer volume and thus cannot afford to discount as much, because that 1 more unit of sales is like 1 more boxinstead of 20 more boxes. It is entirely intelligent and profitable for large stores, especially with online presence and reach, to discount. The presence of large stores doing well over long periods of time with this strategy illustrates this.

There is likely a sampling problem if you ignore store size because the vast najority of stores are small and cannot achieve the volume to make discounting a viable strategy. That does not make discounting a bad strategy though!

[EccentricCircle]

Does anyone know what kind of margin stores do get when buying from GW for trade? 

if it's 30% and they offer a 25% discount that's very different to if its say 60%. 

since the physical products are pretty cheap to manufacture it wouldn't surprise me if the margins are pretty high.

[JackStreicher]

26 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Does anyone know what kind of margin stores do get when buying from GW for trade? 

if it's 30% and they offer a 25% discount that's very different to if its say 60%. 

since the physical products are pretty cheap to manufacture it wouldn't surprise me if the margins are pretty high.

~ 40% in General 

Edit: Though it varies - a few years ago the biggest price difference was 17€ For a 36€ Model.

Edited November 6, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Kadeton]

6 hours ago, Sleboda said:

To super simplify:
The retailer sells one game at full retail.
He discounts 15% and sells two.
"Oh my!" he thinks, "What if I sell at 90% off?"
He discounts 90% and sells 500 ...
... and that's the end of his store.

Seems like nonsense to me. What kind of store owner thinks in terms of discounted percentage of retail, and not in terms of profit margin per unit?

(One who goes out of business, I guess, but that's a bit of a 'duh' answer.)

The retailer sells one game at the normal margin.
He reduces his margin by 40% and sells two.
"Oh my!" he thinks, "What if I sell at only 10% of my regular margin?"
He discounts that amount and sells eight.
"Hmm," he thinks, "That's less profit than I was making on a single unit. But with a 60% margin, I was making 20% more money. I'm guessing the 'right' amount is somewhere in between!" He continues to experiment with prices until he finds an optimum balance of units sold to margin earned.
And yet he's still made a profit on every sale.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Kadeton