Is Destruction missing something?

[Moar Barmu]

I feel like Destruction is the most limited of the grand alliances, even more so than Death. All of the Allegiances feel similar, with the exception of some of the Gloomspite guys. I wish that Chaos Dwarves were turned into Stone Dwarves or some kind of Destruction Dwarves with ranged weapons.

[PlasticCraic]

Destruction could use more shooting in my opinion.  It has historically been up there with Order as the shootinest GA:

- Gitmob artillery had a long and proud history in Mixed lists

- Thundertusks were rightly feared back in their day, including the legendary, all-conquering Mooclan build

- Kunnin Rukk

Gitmob artillery was deleted from the range.  

Thundertusks are now garbage, so between the two of those, that's pretty much all our sniping gone.

Kunnin Rukk obviously ain't what it used to be, and some other options (Squig Gobbas, Leadbelchers, Ironblasters) have generally been trash and continue to be so in their current iterations.

So yeah, I would say Destruction is missing shooting, and specifically hero sniping.  Some people might think that's not thematic for Destruction, and it should just be walk forward and smash stuff. 

I disagree, because there's no reason why sneaky Grots (for example) shouldn't run war machines (like Skaven do for example, who kept their old metal kits as Destruction was losing plastic ones).  Similarly Savage Orruks are hunters, so it totally makes sense to me that they would run around with their bows and arrows (and I still like using them in Big Waaagh).

The next army coming out looks like it will be in direct competition with my current Stonehorns army (hyper-elite, monster mash combat army) and I'm not sure I'd have much need for both.  We'll see what happens when we know more about Sons.

[PlasticCraic]

But if I was wishlisting, I'd love to see the Gitmob warband from Underworlds expanded further.  Raiders from the steppes, with 6" pile in on their wolves.  

Meanwhile their warmachines get AOSified, with amazing new Doom Divers causing havoc.  When you look at the Black Coach for example as a "before and after", I'd love Grot warmachines to be levelled up in a similar way.  So that's where I'd like to see the range expanded, in a fast / movement jank and shooting contraptions army.

[PlasticCraic]

The other thing I'm really interested in seeing is for the design studio to move on from a one-to-one mapping of WHFB races to AOS GAs.  It's (beyond) time to grow up and leave the Old World behind.

Specifically, Phil Kelly has mentioned humans in Ghur who worship Gork and Mork and paint themselves in green warpaint.  I think it would be pretty cool to see them in some way, possibly as part of the Gitmob "Savage Tribes" force.

[Nezzhil]

We need a siege army. Destruction is not only savage people. A good example of a Destruction army could be the Mongol Horde, conquerors with powerful weapons, advance weapons and one of the most advanced siege technologies.

[DerZauberer]

Grotbag Scuttlers is something which gets quoted in most newer publications - perfect excuse for making a shooty destruction force.

[Evil Eye]

I'd love to see the return of the Gitmobs and their artillery- my GSG would love some of those spear chukkas! But yeah, more artillery in general would be nice. I will say, having recently read the Build-A-Hero rules in the GHB2020 I wouldn't mind a similar set of rules for custom war machines. Obviously no good for tourneys but for friendly/fluffy/Garagehammer style games it'd really add some extra fun IMO.

[Beliman]

We had a brainstorming not so long ago and we talked about how GW could give some "character" to some Allegiances. I think it suits in to this thread:

• We saw some type of magic rotations with the Lumineth but I always thought that the Lore of the Great Maw was something close to that. Instead of Twinstones  to be the main engine, the MawPot could take their place. For every spell that goes on, the next one will be buffed/changed/something. 
• Mounted Archers. I know that it's not a "destruccion" thing, but the mongol design, hunters chasing fast beasts, etc... I think that "advance and shoot" could be fluffy or even new mechanics like "move after shooting".
• Summoning/ambush/whatever. And I mean, summon elementals, "lure" beasts to the battlefield, etc... everything related to that. Even some type of ability to hunt your own "beasts" for resources (CPs or any new Aether-quarz or whatever). The sky is the limit, just make it fluffy and not exploitable!!!
• As said in the previous point, resources. I think that waaaagh points are awesome (even if it's  more an scaling mechanic) . But let's be real, Destru has Ogors that had a fine nose for gold/booty/meat, Moonclan have mushrooms, etc... no need to expand that, but everyone has some type of resource that could be used in the game (and let's be honest, it's really fun to play with resources if they are simple). 
• Terrain! From all the AoS GAs, the only one that I can see to play with terrain is Destru.  I loved the old Gutstompa's Abilities to burn 1 terrain at the begining of the game, but I can see more interactions: Throw fences to the enemies, burn a temple, destroy that wall, etc... 
• (we had maybe 2-3 more points but I don't remember /sadface)

 GW, release the Grotbags Scuttlers plis!!

[Grim Beasties]

I hope Destruction gets a bigger lore focus and to actually show how they are a threat, in some more stories from a Destruction perspective would be good. Another hope is for some more races outside Orruk, grot, Ogor, troggoth, and gargants; fimir in plastic would be a great thing but part of me is very doubtful they will return.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Grim Beasties

[Euphanism]

A giant bug army.

But for real, I know playing defensively isn't really a Destruction 'thing' but I feel like they lack the ability to just endure hits on the level of Stormcast and Nurgle without losing a handful of models a turn. The closest I can think of would be Troggs, but thats just a small part of a much larger faction. The best defensive Destro army I've ever played with was just all about putting 100 Bonesplitterz onto the board and clogging up the objectives. While fun, it wasn't exactly tactical.

So to bring it around, a giant bug army that burrows up onto the objectives and then forms a shell wall. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Euphanism

[Vasshpit]

@Euphanism

I like to see Spiderfang take this route. 

Drop the grots and be just that. 

[PlasticCraic]

7 hours ago, Euphanism said:

A giant bug army.

But for real, I know playing defensively isn't really a Destruction 'thing'

Eh I know what you mean, but for sneaky Gits it can definitely be a thing.

Most successful Gloomspite lists are based around debuffing Grots so it can be reflected on the tabletop too.

[Beastmaster]

What’s more Destruction than big ragtag war machines? We Ogors do have them, but they have weak rules. 
Maybe Stone-hurling Gargants will make up for this?

Hobgoblin mounted archers would also be a nice addition, which would fit in all the destruction armies. Maybe as mercenaries/allies only?

Edited August 6, 2020 by Beastmaster

[Scurvydog]

Gordrakk and the Ironjawz seems to be at the center of the, so far, rather weak destruction narrative in the overall setting. The short story they released a while back did show us Gordrakk getting the godbeast ram from a stormvault, which he intends to siege the gates to Azyr, so clearly they will need more than boyz and a single ram to do this.

The Ironjawz lineup is very limited right now, especially considering that Gordrakk seems to be the main character from the destruction faction which could hope to stand up to the likes of the pantheon of order, Nagash and his mortarchs from death and the chaos gods. These 3 other grand alliances have interesting characters and are much more well defined as to what they are currently up to in the mortal realms and why we should care. In malign portents we had greenskins gathering and rampaging through Nagashizzar, but it is only really an inconvenience in the Soul Wars plotline and no destruction characters have any real impact at all. 

I think destruction will become more interesting, once GW figures out how to make them players in the big plot lines. So far AoS is one big soap opera of gods dealing and fighting each other, while deciding the fates of entire civilizations. They have motives, flaws and desires. Even the newest death mortarch Katakros is already much better defined than any destruction character period. Wrath of the Everchosen added even more to this and I hope we at least see something similar for destruction.

Ofcourse the sons of behemat might fill in some gaps regarding the siege part, obviously the gatecrasher is going to be a thing and the mentioned lore piece points out how Gordrakk has 2 gargants trying to break down the doors to the stormvault, so clearly he is in command of them as well in some capacity at least. 

[MKsmash]

Destruction is missing something competitively, IMHO. They lack shooting and powerful magic, which dominate the meta right now. The Mawtribes book is oftentimes dysfunctional and seems half-assedly made. GSG relies on 180 grots, as squigs and troggoths (which are awesome) suck. Warclans has Ironjawz, our most competitive army, but it falls apart against magic and OBR. Bonesplitterz is good against monsters, but not many armies are using big monsters besides....Mawtribes, another Destruction army (and perhaps Tyrants Khorne). Not only do we need more armies and more units for each army, we need major buffs. GHB 2020 crippled destruction by allowing only 3 endless spells in a list (hurting GSG) and getting rid of all the malign sorcery artefacts (hurting IJ and OM).

[Scurvydog]

7 minutes ago, MKsmash said:

Destruction is missing something competitively

I mostly agree on this, or perhaps the rest are too competetive? When using lists from other books which are not the top of broken meta lists, destruction armies are often both the most fun to play with and against and frankly, if all books were like Mawtribes and Gitz, AoS as a whole would be in a better place I think.

Often it is only a few stacking mechanics that creates this competetive gap, not good or fun design vs bad and boring design at the core. The best pure melee brawling army is of course fyreslayers, and they should be good, but they simply get everything in 1 combo. Lords of the lodge, super wound efficient battleline units, with fight first, fight twice, ignore battleshock and 4+ ignore wounds and mortal wounds. They even got options for more movement and run+charge prayers going of on a 2+, so they are not even that slow when they want to not be. 

Even Ironjawz can not compete in a fair fight with that, how could they? fighting first and twice is already the most powerful tools a melee army can have, but 4+ damage ignore on top? forget it Smashing and bashing does not really count here, especially against fyreslayers as they will still strike first and even if they didnt, they would rarely lose a unit to basically anything right away.

I'd say Mawtribes monster lists is probably the most competetive destruction has, the might makes right rule alone on monsters make them so much more useful and it seems to always be what wins games, when even that wounded stonehorn on 2 wounds still count as full 10 models on a point. With speed, and built in durability and even some healing from the pot, these guys at least mitigate some of the pressure from MW spamming magic lists and ranged potshots.

Next White Dwarf got a squig sub faction, going to be fun to see that, although for this GHB things from white dwarf got removed, so even if fun, it will hardly be anything to build towards unfortunately.

 

[Grim Beasties]

On 8/5/2020 at 5:00 PM, Euphanism said:

A giant bug army

Does anyone remember the Sleeper from the Orcslayer book? Honestly think that would work for an insectoid faction or even the bug people hinted at in the beastgrave lore. One thing I would want them to avoid though is making them too similar to Tyranids.

[Verminlord]

I think a magic focused elemental wrath army would fit destruction well. It would fill that magic army achetype while still being flavorfully destructive. Could even have a rivalry with sigmar for using lightning.

You could design this in many ways but I imagine araby style Djinni heros with familiars and troops that fill roles based on their element. Tough elite earth golems, Fire elemental shock troops, Nimbus riding air cav, human cultist chaff...

Basically destruction daemons. Order have their lizards, where's ours?

[Magnus The Blue]

Especially compared to Death, I think we are generally in a really good place. Lots of options (despite only a few books), some great competitive lists and some super models.    The big issue is lack of (recent lore), but hopefully the Sons battletomb (and maybe some well times Black Library Action will help).  

We have great list for Magic (Great Waaagh), Shooting (Ogors), Monster Mash (lots) and combat. With the last round of GHB updates I think Ogors and Orruks can definitely compete on the top tables.

[Frowny]

I think destruction is missing engaging characters and non-smashy approaches. Most lists are variations on big bruisers (trogs, ogors, orruks) and some even play similarly. A little more scheming, intelligence, shooting, magic and a few more named characters with good storylines would help. 

Warclans has goddrak but that's it? Moonclan have skaggrot, ogors have nothing. 

Barbarian humans straddling order and destruction (naturalistic but vicious)

Wizards/elementals/unconstrained magic.

Grots with seige weapons and ranged technology.

Something fast and cavalry based (?like the mongolian Wildriders).

Lots of potential but they really just need to do more of it. They've had a lot of good releases lately, so I think they'll do fine if they actually do it.

I'd also love some stories of destruction allying with order when appropriate. A shift away from just violence only would be interesting. For example, there was a great short story of stormcast teaming up with ogors to eat some orruks, which was fun and flavorful. 

[Kramer]

Im sticking with more named characters for the factions and then I’m happy for the time being. 

maybe big as giants... so lucky is on that front. 

also as a side note. I think ogor mawtribes is the best book I’ve played in AoS. Internal balance on point, external balance is nothing to complain about. Never feel I can’t compete. Only the Maneaters and the thundertusk have no real role in the army.  So bring everything up to that quality. 

[Twisted Firaun]

On 6/2/2020 at 6:52 AM, DerZauberer said:

Grotbag Scuttlers is something which gets quoted in most newer publications - perfect excuse for making a shooty destruction force.

Yes, this is what's needed. When I here Grotbag Scuttlers I think ramshackle zeppelins and Squig based WWI style airplanes terrorizing the sky. Now wouldn't that be a hell of an army?!

[Vasshpit]

6 hours ago, Frowny said:

Barbarian humans straddling order and destruction 

This seems to be a somewhat popular request but I really do not want any humies up in grand alliance destro. 

I imagine when Ogors get their spot and actual new or updated kits we will see male and female (at least i hope so) and they are pretty human as is. Just more plump. 

6 hours ago, TheR00zle said:

Yes, this is what's needed. When I here Grotbag Scuttlers I think ramshackle zeppelins and Squig based WWI style airplanes terrorizing the sky. Now wouldn't that be a hell of an army?!

All for Grotbag scuttlers, i just hope that they dont go too far into tech like actual planes. This is fantasy. If I wanted that aesthetic I'd play 40k. 

Kharadon and Skaven yes but I hope for less on the Grot side of things.

Just my opinion. 

 

Interested to see what becomes of those "Silent people" hinted at in Underworlds. Sound insectile and may rightly be so. 

Also, not going to lie. If thats all sons winds up being is one kit im kinda disappointed. The should have just used this time to overhaul an entire line and pulled the plug on the old gargant kit. Its great and all but the new one is leagues above it. 

It looks sooo goofy to me seeing the old with new and the whole size difference. 

[MKsmash]

15 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Especially compared to Death, I think we are generally in a really good place. Lots of options (despite only a few books), some great competitive lists and some super models.    The big issue is lack of (recent lore), but hopefully the Sons battletomb (and maybe some well times Black Library Action will help).  

We have great list for Magic (Great Waaagh), Shooting (Ogors), Monster Mash (lots) and combat. With the last round of GHB updates I think Ogors and Orruks can definitely compete on the top tables.

Gonna have to disagree here. Destruction is one of the weakest competitively. They have great magic in Big Waaaaagh, but Bonesplitterz are frankly not great and IJ are too slow for the allegiance (you need to rely on outside means for Mighty destroyers). Ogor shooting is very unreliable, and all the shooting units are better in melee anyway. Stonehorns, some of the best units in Destruction, took a hard nerf with the GHB, as there is no more Ethereal Amulet, gryph-feather, thermalrider, etc.

Edited August 11, 2020 by MKsmash

[Magnus The Blue]

6 hours ago, MKsmash said:

Gonna have to disagree here. Destruction is one of the weakest competitively. They have great magic in Big Waaaaagh, but Bonesplitterz are frankly not great and IJ are too slow for the allegiance (you need to rely on outside means for Mighty destroyers). Ogor shooting is very unreliable, and all the shooting units are better in melee anyway. Stonehorns, some of the best units in Destruction, took a hard nerf with the GHB, as there is no more Ethereal Amulet, gryph-feather, thermalrider, etc.

All of the Orruk Warclan factors can do well competitively (just look at the results from major events), Bonesplitters are probably the weakest but still have some great builds.

Ogor shooting isn't the best of all armies, but the fact they are all good at combat too means you can field a 90%+ shooting list and not worried about loosing out on combat power.  My Underguts have lost once in 20 games, including going 5-1 at Throne of Skulls (no hyper competative, but still).

Stonehorns suffer a bit from the realm rules changes (only ever really fielded one realm artefact) but so did every monster reliance list, Slaanesh for example got a tripple nerf this year (points, FAQ changes and realm artifacts).

2 of our 3 books have multiple viable competitive builds.  

Death, by comparison have Bonereapers (massively nerfed) and flesheaters monster mash (also nerfed by realm changes) .  Obviously Chaos and Order have more competitive options but they also have WAY more army books