Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[tripchimeras]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Let's be honest, GW could line the pages of a Battletome with anthrax and some would say it's great.

I'm definitely subscribing to that theory that there's either two people, or two teams, who seem to handle every other Battletome though. One that produces fluffy but pretty 'okayish maybe' ruleswise and another that's extremely powerful with meh internal balance. People will say "well I like the fluffy one!" but sadly AoS doesn't exist in a vacuum where we only play fluffy Battletomes vs other fluffy Battletomes.

Yep, I def think this starts to get to the real issue here.  The biggest problem continues to be that GW hides behind the guise that they are a model company, and that the rules they provide are basically superfluous bonuses that we should feel lucky to have at all that are simply designed to make the use of the models more fun.   And certainly if you tilt your head and squint this is more or less true, but the spirit behind it is not what it should be. 

Yes, GW is a model company first, but as was demonstrated with the release of AoS without a decent set of rules or a pt system, their existence as a model company flounders without a decent set of rules, and many gamers derive their enjoyment of said models with the accompaniment of some level of competent rules writing.  Until GW is held to account for their own rules, nothing is going to change. 

I think most in the AoS community more or less agree that the hobby comes first and the game second, and so are predisposed to give GW their support when it comes out with statements like "we are a model company first," but its a statement that is false in spirit if not in letter.  No one is arguing that they shouldn't design models and lore first, and rules second.  What we are arguing is that the rules are essential to the enjoyment of the game, and that it is entirely possible for the rules to come second and still be competent and enjoyable.  We've seen that they are capable of it, because about 70 percent of the time, the rules ARE competently written, if not always inspired or amazing. 

The complaint is that there are clear and systemic flaws in the process by which GW designs their game rules, that cause repeated and egregious errors in mechanics and judgement, to the point that every quarter or so we have a completely avoidable flair up like the one currently occurring, to which GW's responses and fixes have been spotty and unreliable at best, and are always accompanied by a slew of apologists, who mistake the criticism of the company for criticism of the community or hobby.

No one is asking for perfect balance, or for a tournament first approach to the game and hobby.  GW and AoS will always be hobby first, and that is OK!  I just don't think its too much to ask for the company to take them a little more seriously, implement some in house play testing procedures that don't rely exclusively on overworked volunteers, and take a more proactive and driven approach to addressing obvious rule issues.  It would also be nice if the company stopped acting like they had no responsibility to the rules of their own game, and that they were JUST a model company.  They are more then that, and they need to stop hiding behind the idea that they aren't. 

This long rant isn't to say they haven't made some improvements over the years.  Their more frequent faqs, the 2 week ones in particular, and bi-yearly point reviews are a start. Its a start, and aside from Tzeench, at this moment things seem pretty okay.  Its just frustrating that this keeps happening over and over again, and the community response and divide over these issues are the same over and over again.  It doesn't need to be like this.

Edited January 27, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Dead Scribe]

Quote

My big problem with Changehost Flamer Spam is that it has a very low Skill Floor. Go first 90% of the time, teleport within 18 inches of whatever you want dead and delete it. Very hard to mess up.

Thats a feature not a bug.  This is a game marketed at the masses.  It has been said by many that one of the things that kept the masses away from WHFB was that there was a rules and difficulty curve you had to master.  AOS gets rid of both.  Unsurprisingly, AOS sells a whole lot better than WHFB because of it.

Quote

Until GW is held to account for their own rules, nothing is going to change. 

Very true.  There is no reason for GW to change.  They are making money hand over fist.

Quote

No one is asking for perfect balance, or for a tournament first approach to the game and hobby.

There are actually a lot of us asking for a tournament-first approach to the game.  And that only benefits those not playing tournaments with better rules.  

The problem ultimately is that there are some people that not only want great models, they want great balanced rules.  I don't think you get to have both.  I look at games many consider great and notice how no one or very few people play them.  I don't see a market in great balanced rules to be honest.  While a part of me would love balanced rules, the other part of me also realizes that easy builds are better for my wallet because I don't make mistakes messing up and getting a weaker build because the strong builds really scream that they are strong right out of the book.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Dead Scribe

[Skreech Verminking]

Considering how much concern about flamer is going around, I was just thinking if it might make sense to reduce the range of their flaming attack to 9-12.

Their damage output is enormous, and since they are basically the biggest problems, which many fear might get worse then worse with the given chatter,

I thought that reducing the range might change a few things.

with their range reduced to 12 or less, it will be so much easier to counter these change-host lists with flamers, by just screening them out with expendable cheap units.

which will give any player trying to protect their very expensive units from a first turn death, while still keeping the flamers somewhat reliable strong.

maybe a few points adjustments, might not be a bad idea either but considering how Gw has done it in the past, I doubt we’ll be seeing any point changes to soon.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Dolomyte]

3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Considering how much concern about flamer is going around, I was just thinking if it might make sense to reduce the range of their flaming attack to 9-12.

Their damage output is enormous, and since they are basically the biggest problems, which many fear might get worse then worse with the given chatter,

I thought that reducing the range might change a few things.

with their range reduced to 12 or less, it will be bale to counter those change-host, by just screening them out with expendable cheap units.

which will give any player trying to protect their very expensive units from a first turn death, while still keeping the flamers somewhat reliable strong.

maybe a few points adjustments, might not be a bad idea either but considering how Gw has done it in the past, I doubt we’ll be seeing any point changes to soon.

I like flamers as is. I think they are only out of whack in changehost, I feel if you removed flamers and exalted from the cjangehost choice it makes it a four drop army, and it makes it so you can’t teleport the flamers around. When they have to foot slog across table I think a smaller range would be prohibitive 

[Neverreal]

What do you think of switching Changehost from demons to all arcanite units?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Neverreal

[MitGas]

While I enjoy that Tzeentch makes every progamer cry and whine for once (serves the powergamers right), I'm fine with them nerfing it - but PLEASE, for the love of God, do it in a way where we don't need 12 pages of FAQs to play our army again like last time. I'm fine with ending up as one of the weakest armies as long as we don't have to bring a folder with all the errata and stuff...

Edited January 27, 2020 by MitGas

[Sinfullyvannila]

22 minutes ago, MitGas said:

While I enjoy that Tzeentch makes every progamer cry and whine for once (serves the powergamers right), I'm fine with them nerfing it - but PLEASE, for the love of God, do it in a way where we don't need 12 pages of FAQs to play our army again like last time. I'm fine with ending up as one of the weakest armies as long as we don't have to bring a folder with all the errata and stuff...

The only needed changes this specific tournament reveals is on the page with Changehost, and probably on the page with Conflaguration and Host Duplicitous.

Everything else people are suggesting is an over correction. Based on this tournament.

[MitGas]

57 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The only needed changes this specific tournament reveals is on the page with Changehost, and probably on the page with Conflaguration and Host Duplicitous.

Everything else people are suggesting is an over correction. Based on this tournament.

I got this sinking feeling that they'll overcorrect it though... or I'm getting paranoid. Also cool, that way I'll never feel alone again.

[kahadin]

I think this is the list everyone is cutting their wrists over. A bit OP 10 pink horrors and 2 units of three flamers:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Change Coven: Eternal Conflagration

 

LEADERS

Lord of Change (380)

- General

- Rod of Sorcery

- Trait: Coruscating Flames

- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame

- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Fatemaster (120)

Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)

- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

- Artefact: Aura of Mutability

The Blue Scribes (120)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Fatecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)

-Staff of Tzeentch

-Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Changeling (120)

-Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch 

UNITS

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)

3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

 

BATTALIONS

Changehost (180)

 

ENDLESS SPELLS / COMMAND POINTS

Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

 

Wounds: 82

 

The chief complainer was running petrifex nagash...

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 minutes ago, kahadin said:

 

The chief complainer was running petrifex nagash...

Lol, and he’s inspiring people to complain about Locus and unmodifiable DD Battleshock rolls.

 

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

[Daramiz]

27 minutes ago, kahadin said:

I think this is the list everyone is cutting their wrists over. A bit OP 10 pink horrors and 2 units of three flamers:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Change Coven: Eternal Conflagration

 

LEADERS

Lord of Change (380)

- General

- Rod of Sorcery

- Trait: Coruscating Flames

- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame

- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Fatemaster (120)

Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)

- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

- Artefact: Aura of Mutability

The Blue Scribes (120)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Fatecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)

-Staff of Tzeentch

-Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Changeling (120)

-Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch 

UNITS

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)

3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

 

BATTALIONS

Changehost (180)

 

ENDLESS SPELLS / COMMAND POINTS

Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Darkfire Daemonrift (50)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

 

Wounds: 82

 

The chief complainer was running petrifex nagash...

Who's list is this? Where are people complaining about it?

[Death1942]

7 minutes ago, Daramiz said:

Who's list is this? Where are people complaining about it?

This looks like the winning Cancon list and I just finished watching the final game it was in.  The big trick is the tournament was held in the realm of light so the lifeswarm is buffed up, he deliberately hits his unit of pinks with the daemonrift to pop out some blues and then casts lifeswarm to heal up the pinks.  I think he made the unit go from 50 effective wounds to 72 during the game so it basically can't be shifted.

Aside from that it has the usual tzeentch tricks and he played it well.

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 minutes ago, Daramiz said:

Who's list is this? Where are people complaining about it?

#Tzeentchgate on twitter apparently.

[Daramiz]

5 minutes ago, Death1942 said:

This looks like the winning Cancon list and I just finished watching the final game it was in.  The big trick is the tournament was held in the realm of light so the lifeswarm is buffed up, he deliberately hits his unit of pinks with the daemonrift to pop out some blues and then casts lifeswarm to heal up the pinks.  I think he made the unit go from 50 effective wounds to 72 during the game so it basically can't be shifted.

Aside from that it has the usual tzeentch tricks and he played it well.

Ah, I haven't watched any Cancon games but that sounds genuinely cool. That's the good play I want to see DoT armies do, rather than the teleport-point-and-shoot I've seen a lot of so far.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Endless Spell bomb and Lifeswarm on Horrors is a classic Tzeentch play. Nothing original about that. Just more powerful because Lifeswarm was Empowered.

[kahadin]

21 minutes ago, Death1942 said:

This looks like the winning Cancon list and I just finished watching the final game it was in.  The big trick is the tournament was held in the realm of light so the lifeswarm is buffed up, he deliberately hits his unit of pinks with the daemonrift to pop out some blues and then casts lifeswarm to heal up the pinks.  I think he made the unit go from 50 effective wounds to 72 during the game so it basically can't be shifted.

Aside from that it has the usual tzeentch tricks and he played it well.

Thank You Death,

I can see why that would be more amped than it looks at first glance. An empowered lifeswarm healing back pinks after getting a handful of blues could be pretty rough.

[Freejack02]

17 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I think if what you said were the case it would not be an exaggeration to say it’s probably the single most egregious oversight in the game’s history. I’m 70/100 confident that it is working as intended and is in fact the primary intention of the rule.

Heh, I'm probably 70/100 the other way truth be told. We'll see how it plays out and if I'm wrong, and we're ever at an event together, first round is on me. 

[Saxon]

On 1/27/2020 at 8:05 AM, PrimeElectrid said:

InB4 jUsT sHoOt ThE hErOeS

Haha i love this. I had this exact argument with some people on a FB group about Bonereapers and their ridiculous saves on saves. The constant suggestion was 'just kill heroes and they suck'. Its hilarious to think it is just that simple......

[Saxon]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Lol, and he’s inspiring people to complain about Locus and unmodifiable DD Battleshock rolls.

 

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.

People who run power-gaming lists generally complain the hardest because they play the game to win not to have fun....

[Inquisitorsz]

 

22 hours ago, Zanzou said:

Searched everywhere for the results and can't find anything... Where are these results published?

 

On 1/27/2020 at 9:09 AM, swarmofseals said:

Any lists?

 

17 hours ago, Dejnar said:

Hiya!

Where can I find the results for Cancon and LVO? My googling has lead me nowhere. 

/D

 

For those of you asking, here are the links to the lists and results 
https://aosshorts.com/cancon-2020-lists/

There's a link to a video there as well which goes into more detailed analysis. 

https://downunderpairings.com/Tournament.php?TournamentID=776&Panel1=Leaderboard

 

19 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Being cynical I wonder how much of this was down to lots of people thinking bonereapers were a really powerful army and bringing a list along without having practised enough with it?

There were certainly people who were clearly less experienced with Tzeentch as well as those who did well. Taking a strong list on paper doesn't automatically mean you get to place top 20. 
I almost tabled a changehost in the second round with Sylvaneth. He only had a half blue half brimstone unit left on the board. 
Also, the winner was the current NZ master.... so yeah, strong new army, but also a very good and experienced player. 

From what I've seen, from the event, reading the book myself, and playing against them once, I think there's a few fairly minor things that need tweaks.  
If the battleshock casualties can modify destiny dice, then I think the Host Duplicitous no retreat thing isn't so bad.  
Destiny dice should probably also not ignore rend.  Admittedly that makes results of 2-5 less useful but destiny dice are already strong enough imo.  

Horror units are dumb. Mainly because it's just a terrible unit to buy/build/paint and play with. It goes from 10 models to 20. You need to buy and paint 3 boxes worth of stuff (50) to use the unit properly. And the 240 pt, 2 spell casting Gaunt Summoner gives you a unit for free as well. 
It's just a stupidly expensive battleline unit that no one likes playing against.  
that being said, if they couldn't ignore battleshock so easily, you can cut through them fairly easily. 

The other thing is simply that they are brand new and people haven't learned to play against them yet. The 5th player overall at Cancon took guild of summoners with arcanite cabal and mostly mortal tzeentch. So it's not just changehost teleporting and -1 rend shooting that's too strong. 

As for OBR, I know at least 1 high end player (the current AUS master) who won masters with OBR took something different to Canon. He won Masters with OBR having like 2 practice games. Up till the last game he'd lost 10 mortek guard and 1 hero all tournament lol.  
He ended up 18th at Cancon with Nighthaunt of all things.... goes to show that being a good, experienced players makes a significant impact. It's not all about taking the currently most broken army. 

Honestly, the flamer teleport spam doesn't bother me that much simply because other armies have similar tricks. Like stormcast who deepstrike the ballistas or castigators. I was on the receiving end of 20 castigators teleporting in and killing Alarielle in one round of shooting. I'm sure other armies have their own tricks like that. Sure maybe the can't teleport around each turn , but there's lots of Alpha strike type lists. 
It's a wider problem with AoS in general and I don't think it's unique to Tzeentch or flamers. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[Qaz]

Right... it seems that DoT book came into the tournament scene strong. Still early days, players may adapt and counters will turn up. 

Or possibly, the realm-lords will put Tzeentch back in his place. Then the cycle of balance continues.

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Qaz

[swarmofseals]

28 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

 .... goes to show that being a good, experienced players makes a significant impact. It's not all about taking the currently most broken army. 
 

Thanks for the links!

Also, I really wish more people understood this. People talk about AOS like it's got no skill factor and is terribly dumbed down, and yet there are players who can go to a GT and 4-1 with a ham sandwich. There is a huge skill element to the game that people underestimate in part due to the vast majority of competitive discussion being about listbuilding and not actual gameplay.

[Sinfullyvannila]

36 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

The other thing is simply that they are brand new and people haven't learned to play against them yet. The 5th player overall at Cancon took guild of summoners with arcanite cabal and mostly mortal tzeentch. So it's not just changehost teleporting and -1 rend shooting that's too strong. 

Anything that can take >6th place is too strong?

Are you fully familiar with the Destiny Dice changes? 2-4 are essentially worthless now without a Lord of Change and without the unmodified destiny dice results rule. You may be able to unbind a casting roll of of 5. Awesome. Super powerful allegiance ability there.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Inquisitorsz]

7 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Anything that can take >6th place is too strong?

huh? 
I'm just saying that while everyone is crying over Eternal Conflag Changehost, other version of Tzeentch lists obviously work well too.  
Either because it's a strong, experienced player, or because something else is the problem (like the various destiny dice arguments). 

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

huh? 
I'm just saying that while everyone is crying over Eternal Conflag Changehost, other version of Tzeentch lists obviously work well too.  
Either because it's a strong, experienced player, or because something else is the problem (like the various destiny dice arguments). 

The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out.

See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila