Phasteon

I did some brainstorming with an OBR playing friend of mine about how to create more pressure and being able to get a more consistent grip on the board. He is usually playing Katakros, Zandtos, Soulmason, 2x 20 Mortek Guards, 2x 5 Deathriders and a Harvester. I think while having some kind of staying power there is no real threat on the board. I can easily make sure I get a charge with my 4 Fulminators into whatever I want which absolutely murders whatever it touches. I think you need a hammer unit of some sort. And the only viable hammer unit imo are Morghast Harbingers. They have fly, speed (3d6 charge) and -2 on the halberds. Maybe they could work in a Katakros list because of his buff aura, but I‘d go for a (fluffy) Petrifex List with 2x4 of them with some MSU Style Necropolis Stalkers and just min squads of Mortek Guard for some Objective Holding. Maybe 2x10 Mortek for screening and 1x5 Deathriders (to grab opponents objectives, they are pretty fast with 15 + d6+1 run movement) What do you think?

You‘re overestimating the Mawkrushas Output.

I never disagreed with people having a problem with save stacking, I disagree that its a general problem that must be „fixed“ 😉

We are talking about 2 completely different views of balance here. You take the „simple“ comparison by putting 2 units in a vacuum. „Who would win? 1k points of Zombies or 1k points of Clanrats?“ Which couldnt be further away from what the game is about. My view is about the far more „complex“ view by comparing units by how good they benifit their army as a whole. „What hammer do Zombies screen?“ VS „What hammer do Clanrats screen?“ Maybe, and just maybe - the relatively fragile but strong ranged units of the skaven are more valuable to protect than Zombiedragons or other big stuff of the Gravelords. So naturally, Skaven should pay more points for their chaff. If I‘m not wrong here the Skaven also pay less points for their hammers than Gravelords do, which makes it even more reasonable. And we are talking about very little points here, its not that Zombies are 115 and Clanrats are 150. I 100% agree that many armies need a new tome, because they don’t fully fit into 3.0 yet. But, in this discussion about „save stacking as a big problem“ the only intelligent thing to say is „its far too early to tell“. I played like 25 games so far and there was not a single game where a stacked save felt oppressive (and I faced 10 protectors with mystic shield and lantern). It felt challenging at best and at the worst it was like „damn, I should have focused XY instead“

I don‘t think 20 Zombies „dominate“ 20 clanrats. I‘d say its a wet noodle fight that the Zombies eventually win after 2-3 rounds of uneventful combat. Your other examples (Ironbreakers, Allopexes, Bladelords) can‘t really hold their own, as those units are a) more expensive and b) more fitting in the elite category of the game. Everyone knows that Pink Horrors are/were one of the most efficient tarpits in the game, but I wouldnt say they „dominate clanrats“ as well. I‘d say if you look at each of those 3 units (Zombies, Clanrats, Horrors) they all have a pretty similar task within their army, the are all accordingly prized for it (in comparison of INTERNAL not EXTERNAL balance, which is far more important), neither of those is obviously over- or undercosted. You could make clanrats 110 points for 20, but I could find the same arguments to make 2 Fulminators 180 points. Thats just not how external balance works at all.

Name 1 example of a unit that pays less points (6,5) per wound and dominates clanrats.

Its the same point though. Clanrats pay 65p for 10 wounds, what I consider VERY cheap. Chaff like that is not supposed to stick around for very long, nor should it be too useful from a utility perspective. GW finally implemented a mechanic that makes chaff durable enough against other chaff / chip damage if needs to be and elite the dominating force they should be. I can happily agree to disagree on this matter, but there is literally nothing to gain for me in discussing what should be „even cheaper“ or not. To @JackStreicher‘s point about the small minority of competitive players: (Sorry mate, its nothing personal, your points are just so ridiculously easy to attack) Someone using multiple layers of + save to reinforce his ranks (eg making full use of the mechanic) is not considered a „casual“ player for me. When using all the combos and tricks your army offers to win the game you are „competitive“ as per definition. Now you tell us, that after 40 matches against those players the game is no fun to you, which seriously makes you a) a bad loser b) unable to adapt to core mechanics (= a bad player) c) unwilling to adapt to core mechanics (= both) Again, just ask your opponents to go easy on you - when they are just playing casually as you claim there should be no problem in doing so.

So basically you are trolling?

How are 95p for 10 Chainrasps overpriced? You get 10 Wounds with a 5+/6+. Arkanauts are 100p for 10 wounds with a 4+ Save that pretty much fill the same roll, but their save is rendable, so you either put ressources into them to maybe make them stay or they die to -1 or better as fast as chain rasps. Hobgrots are 80p but on a 6+ Save. NH are good against everything that relies on high rend - high damage to kill stuff. I could imagine 30 Chainrasps with proper support can tarpit Nagash, Archaon or Kragnos for at least 2-3 rounds of combat, while outnumbering them at an objective. And at this point you pretty much won the game on points.

I have to admit, I have 0 idea how the „standard“ skaven list looks like, but I just built a random list with Thanquol, some Stormfiends, Clanrats, and 2 Doomwheels / Warp Lightning Cannons and some little Heroes a friend of mine plays. ~140 wounds of RATS. And you STILL want to tell me that fielding 300+ wounds of rend ignoring / 1/6 damage ignoring ghosts is reasonable?

I just want to point out that this guy wants to make a 10-man bladegheist unit that can still dish out up to 40 attacks at -1 with a 4+ unrendeble save 100 points. All while capping saves at 3+/4+ and giving +1 rend CA. I‘d imagine how fun it would be facing 30 Bladegheists with ~60 Attacks -2 rend that cost 300 points slicing through my (now thx to rend) 4+ Save Fulminators that come at 480 points, while they do ~halve damage because their -2 rend gets ignored. 🤔 Doesnt matter if you are competitive minded or casual player, it‘s good that GW has professionals / play testers for the job and that we (as the loud minority) have no real impact in the design process.

Kruciator can hand out a 5+ ward bubble. But look, my SCE list has 105 wounds at 2k points. Basically all my lists have between 100 - 140 wounds. And you want to tell us that bringing at least 300 wounds (not regarding heroes or multiwound models) is reasonable?

Yeah you pick the worst 3 factions in the game right now and say a general rule/mechanic is problematic because they struggle. They did before and neither of us has any representative data if it got better or worse for them because literally nobody plays them. As for Nighthaunt - i strongly disagree with you here. They definately need a new tome because of how old their current rules are, but they are in no spot where they need to field 300+ models to compete. They have 4+ unrendeble saves in combination with 6+ (or even 5+) wards pretty much across the board. They can tarpit really well, I‘d just make things like Bladegheists a bit cheaper (150 for 10) which should be enough until a new tome comes out. If you really think Nighthaunt needs 300+ models then go ahead and play against someone with nighthaunt and let him field like 2k more points than you. Make a batrep (pictures & write up) and show us how fun it would be to play against 300+ wounds that ignore rend and 1/6 of damage.

It showed more than that. It showed that even a model supposed to stick around FOREVER gets killed in a single round of shooting. Not 3-4 rounds of combat as other 500+ Units buffed up can last. A single round. People claim that units get „unkillable“ because of save stacking, the same people cry about Lumineth Sentinels OP MW spam, when all they really do is punish low wound / high save units. Its paper to your rock. If you don‘t want a little bit of rock, paper, scissors then please enlighten me? What do you want? Your keypiece getting taken out every.single.game on the first round of shooting because it just has a 3+ Save against a million attacks with rend? I made realistic points about targetting support pieces first, screening deathstars, ignoring „unkillable“ threats to the point where they finally ARE killable or just bring something equally tough yourself, which is very possible with mystic shield + all out defense for everyone. But you guys don‘t want to listen to reason. You want to believe that save stacking is ruining your games and everyone reasoning with you is treated as some kind of liar or toxic person. @JackStreicher topped it off with his post. The only reason I did not report him is so reasonable people can have a laugh at his infantile talk.

You just surrendered the discussion and made clear to everyone that you are a troll, nothing more. Congrats on that, mate.