TGA Cities of Sigmar GHB 2020 Feedback Thread EDIT: OP updated with popular suggestions 24/2/20

[Doko]

Yes ironbreakers are the most overcosted unit of all cos for sure.

 

That unit must cost 100 as have relative same stats than a unit of liberators( that everyone know are bad after so many new toys)

 

A example are arkanaut company 90 points for 10 wounds with save 4 and same damage output than irombreakers BUT rangued that is better

 

Then if we pay 40 extra points(almost 50% expensiver) we have ironbreakers for same damage but melle,same wounds but a 16% better save.....numbers dont lie.

 

Ironbreakers must have 2 wounds or a special save after save of 4 to keep a cost of 130

[zilberfrid]

20 minutes ago, Doko said:

Yes ironbreakers are the most overcosted unit of all cos for sure.

That unit must cost 100 as have relative same stats than a unit of liberators( that everyone know are bad after so many new toys)

A example are arkanaut company 90 points for 10 wounds with save 4 and same damage output than irombreakers BUT rangued that is better

Then if we pay 40 extra points(almost 50% expensiver) we have ironbreakers for same damage but melle,same wounds but a 16% better save.....numbers dont lie.

Ironbreakers must have 2 wounds or a special save after save of 4 to keep a cost of 130

Save after save 4+ would put them at Phoenix Guard level, which are undercosted at 160. Two wounds would be about the same.

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Save after save 4+ would put them at Phoenix Guard level, which are undercosted at 160. Two wounds would be about the same.

Well considering that Phoenix guards have a better movement characteristic and a rend of 1, it makes sense that they are better them Ironbreakers, even with those buffs given.

But considering how tuff they are I would leave there war-scrolls be and put them down to 110-120/ 270-300.

and Longbeards  down to 100/240.

just to give the dwarfs some kind of an a better points-balance.

 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well considering that Phoenix guards have a better movement characteristic and a rend of 1, it makes sense that they are better them Ironbreakers, even with those buffs given.

But considering how tuff they are I would leave there war-scrolls be and put them down to 110-120/ 270-300.

and Longbeards  down to 100/240.

just to give the dwarfs some kind of an a better points-balance.

Save 3+ misses at 1 and 2, 4+ at 1,2,3. That's 50% more.

I could see, for instance a save vs mortal wounds of 5+ or even 4+. Not as good as a save after save, but it makes the options for killing them harder.

Longbeards seemed fine to me, tough cookies that trade damage output for having a hero phase. Horde discount seems fine, they are now usually taken in minimum unit sizes.

Edited February 27, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Myrdin]

Remember guys that at the moment Warscroll changes are not really an option. 

The intent is to compile price adjustments instead of Warscroll updates, since this is for the oncoming GHB update, and those address only points changes.

So for the Longbeards, the only current solution available is dropping the price. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

Remember guys that at the moment Warscroll changes are not really an option. 

The intent is to compile price adjustments instead of Warscroll updates, since this is for the oncoming GHB update, and those address only points changes.

So for the Longbeards, the only current solution available is dropping the price. 

For Ironbreakers more than Longbeards, I'd say.

[Myrdin]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

For Ironbreakers more than Longbeards, I'd say.

I am not using dwarf infantry so the names might have gotten mixed up. As long we all know what we are talking about.

The substance of my comment was about something entirely different > this being only price changes not warscroll redesigns.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Myrdin

[Maddpainting]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/5lv2Q42hrIDrrqNi.pdf

Point changes up

Scourgerunners and Drakespawns knights (not Drakescapwn chariots for some reason), and many others.

[Carnith]

Battlemage got nerfed for no real reason. Might as well take a Lord-Exorcist since its just now a better fighter and more defensible. 

Wood elves saw zero point decreases, which is disappointing, because WWR are no where near worth 130. Oh well. I mostly have my forces done, maybe in a winter point change some more stuff can come down. 

[JackStreicher]

This thread was for nothing then. Congrats GW.

The biggest letdown is the Mage,  mage on Griffon and Sorceress on Black Dragon.

[Maddpainting]

Well, a lot of things changed in the GH, no stacking after saves, realm rules changes, artefact changes, and given some of the big armies had other nerfs (like OBR petrifex is now re-roll 1's instead of +1 to saves) i can see a thin point change this time around.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Maddpainting

[Clan's Cynic]

Battlemage went up but Sorceress stayed the same... yeah, that's GW balancing alright. Presumably they wanted to sell the more expensive model for her over the box of multiple Battlemages.

Good news for Dwarfs and Dark Elves though.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[dekay]

Shame about griffon mage, as useless as he ever was.

Battlemage cost is questionable, between Sorceress and Incantor (or worse, exorcist) he'll be hard to justify, unless you're really relying on those spells. Which are still better than any alternatives have built in, but is it worth the cost?

Apart from that, I rather like what I see. Scourgerunners are still good, only now we'll be taking, say, 6 as a support, not 18 as core, and all the other point drops are welcome.

Drakespawn for 130 are quite cheap for the mobile anvil that they are, steam tanks needed this drop very badly, executioners and black guard might be more viable competition for phoenix guard, all the dwarf drops are nice as well.

Neither hurricanum nor phoenix guard went up, which we should be thankful for.

Cheaper Stormcast (and KO) are a boon to us as well. Be it some heavyweight unit, or ridiculously cheap aetherwings as fast roadblock.

All the other elite infantry going down makes Wildwood Rangers even more useless, though.

It's a bit disappointing how many prices remained the same, but all in all, I think we've gained more than we lost.

[Myrdin]

Hmmm..... Ok. I did enjoy running two battlemages and took sorceress only rarely. I think this will change positions now. 10 points ? Maybe, 20 ? Hell no! Not really into Stormcast, before I go that way I want to first fully flesh this army in every aspect so that It can stand on its own two legs. But this begs something to consider since I`ve already been pondering of getting one or two Balistas due to our artillery being garbage.

And on the note of our horrible, pathetic artillery, looking at the points.... it stays the same. As do our monster mounted spellcasters and Luminark (I dont think Hurricanum should be more expensive, the price is fair for what you get when compared to other armies). Shame really.

Corsairs and Flagelants remains the same piece of trash they always were (admittedly corsair can be made to work in SOME niche scenarios like against Nighthaunt where rend is really not a thing.).

Overall I think this has changed little and addressed none in greater scheme of things. The meta will not shift, nor will the non meta reliable builds. As Dekay said above, only difference is that chariot spam will turn into chariot support and I am fine with that to be honest, although I think they should have instead lowered the cost of the Drakespawn one. Should have been +10 pts on Scourge runner -10 pts on drakespawn.

As per usual it seems that the price changes executed did little to address the issues with some units, not only never seeing the table, but them not even being a thing to consider in the first place ever (Flagellants anyone ? No ? Ok *sad face meme).

Elite infantry dropping in points mean only one thing > we are being pushed towards more hoardy approach.  I actually did have good success using Executioners against Nighthaunts as a budget MW infantry. With those 30 pts shaved off, I`ll be even happier in taking them.

I am not sure what to think of these points adjustments. It seems to me like the person who did the final decision doesnt really know anything about this army and the whole thing is more like hit and miss hoping it sticks than anything. But hey, at least there were no serious price hikes other than the Battle mage so thats good.

[Doko]

Many elites got decrease but they forgot hammererz.

 

Also longbeard and ironbreaker is good the buff,but even they are bad.

 

Battlemage nerf is a joke,only 10 less than a incantor for 3 less save?.....

 

Also black dragons didnt get any buff,i guess these changes are rushed and forgot many units

[Maddpainting]

I'm fine with Black Dragon not changing and i play 2 of them time to time, with Drakespawn knights lol. Thou i do have the rest of my army as Scourgerunners for backup. They at 2+ save with 14w turn 1 is a lot stronger than you would think against shooting, or the +4" turn1  movement with run and charge in TE. 16"+D6 and charge, or the Knights 15"+D6, with a +1 to charge as well. for all of it and additional +1 for the Knights. 

As soon as they get into mid field they really do a lot of damage for their points, and seem to be valued correctly. 

[dekay]

3 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I'm fine with Black Dragon not changing and i play 2 of them time to time, with Drakespawn knights lol. Thou i do have the rest of my army as Scourgerunners for backup. They at 2+ save with 14w turn 1 is a lot stronger than you would think against shooting, or the +4" turn1  movement with run and charge in TE. 16"+D6 and charge, or the Knights 15"+D6, with a +1 to charge as well. for all of it and additional +1 for the Knights.

It's only +3 movement but I'm inclined to agree. In TE knights can easily get either 21 move for 1st turn repositioning (without getting any spells into account) or potential 14+2d6 (re-rollable) charge range. Again, before we add spells. That's very fast for a 2+ save unit and in many cases they'll be able to successfully charge turn 1.

As for monsters, It's a bit of a niche choice, but definitely not useless. In TE, both Dreadlord and General are very solid choices (with general necessary for the battalion, which is one of CoS more useful ones).

Dreadlord is also useful in Living City and Anvilgard, while General sees use in Hammerhal. Dragon Sorceress has also been used with success in few lists, but with her bad save she is a bit overpriced, even if it isn't to the point of uselessness. Synergies she has with darkling units (that just got cheaper!) are very much worthy of consideration.

Poor battlemage on griffon, though. I don't think anyone ever has managed to use him with any degree of success... (or even attempted to use him at all.)

[Maddpainting]

10 minutes ago, dekay said:

It's only +3 movement but I'm inclined to agree. In TE knights can easily get either 21 move for 1st turn repositioning (without getting any spells into account) or potential 14+2d6 (re-rollable) charge range. Again, before we add spells. That's very fast for a 2+ save unit and in many cases they'll be able to successfully charge turn 1.

As for monsters, It's a bit of a niche choice, but definitely not useless. In TE, both Dreadlord and General are very solid choices (with general necessary for the battalion, which is one of CoS more useful ones).

Dreadlord is also useful in Living City and Anvilgard, while General sees use in Hammerhal. Dragon Sorceress has also been used with success in few lists, but with her bad save she is a bit overpriced, even if it isn't to the point of uselessness. Synergies she has with darkling units (that just got cheaper!) are very much worthy of consideration.

Poor battlemage on griffon, though. I don't think anyone ever has managed to use him with any degree of success... (or even attempted to use him at all.)

Its also +1 to runs always, and +3" turn 1 for movements. Yeah in Living City its pretty good too, its my 2nd choice for them. The Ironoak Command Trait is really good on him, with a Repeating Bow and still a 3+ save to double move is really good for objectives and flanking.

[j0lt]

I've been toying with a heavy Duardin list and these changes have just tipped me over the edge.

Time to write a few lists.

[readercolin]

10 hours ago, dekay said:

Poor battlemage on griffon, though. I don't think anyone ever has managed to use him with any degree of success... (or even attempted to use him at all.)

Did you know that you can now get a Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion for 20 points cheaper than the battlemage on griffon?  Yes, technically the griffon does more damage in melee.  But the Taurelion has a 3+ save, a profile that doesn't degrade, and most importantly - it can cast 2 spells.

Note here that I am not arguing that a Taurelion is worth bringing.  He's still kind of questionable, even in hallowheart where he can cast 3 spells.  But DAMN does that make the battlemage look terrible.

[Popisdead]

On 7/20/2020 at 8:49 AM, Maddpainting said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/5lv2Q42hrIDrrqNi.pdf

Point changes up

Scourgerunners and Drakespawns knights (not Drakescapwn chariots for some reason), and many others.

 

On 7/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, carnith said:

Battlemage got nerfed for no real reason. Might as well take a Lord-Exorcist since its just now a better fighter and more defensible. 

Wood elves saw zero point decreases, which is disappointing, because WWR are no where near worth 130. Oh well. I mostly have my forces done, maybe in a winter point change some more stuff can come down. 

Well,.. when the book came out everyone talked about what an amazing value they were.  I am not sure he was nerfed forno reason.  I think they showed up in a lot of lists.  Maybe hammerhal ruined them for the rest of us 😉 

For sure,.WWR,.. yeah they could use a points drop as all the Wanderers could really.  There are some Wanderer issues overall.  EG should have been able to use their ability on a regular move.  Making it stop for piling in means,.. you only want to take 10 but you want 20 for a brick unit.  Seems contradictory and poor thinking in warscroll writing.  It is tricky to build a Wanderer list that really makes sense on the table.

On 7/20/2020 at 9:40 AM, dekay said:

Battlemage cost is questionable, between Sorceress and Incantor (or worse, exorcist) he'll be hard to justify, unless you're really relying on those spells. Which are still better than any alternatives have built in, but is it worth the cost?

...

All the other elite infantry going down makes Wildwood Rangers even more useless, though.

So for the Sorceress to be of better value you tended to have to take 10 Dreadswords to stab.  

Wildwood Rangers aren't useless.  They have a 2" reach and reliable stats and 10 can punk a Ghorgon one shot.  20 can do more damage.  I agree they should come down in points but calling them useless feels a bit much.

11 hours ago, dekay said:

Dreadlord is also useful in Living City and Anvilgard, while General sees use in Hammerhal. 

You can make use of two Dreadlords in Living City if you have two command points

[Carnith]

6 hours ago, Popisdead said:

 

Well,.. when the book came out everyone talked about what an amazing value they were.  I am not sure he was nerfed forno reason.  I think they showed up in a lot of lists.  Maybe hammerhal ruined them for the rest of us 😉 

 

Could be that Hallowheart abused them in with several realm spells and spamming endless spells. A lot of those are gone now. 

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, carnith said:

Could be that Hallowheart abused them in with several realm spells and spamming endless spells. A lot of those are gone now. 

That might have made him more valuable. There aren't that many Wizards left out there now which can select from such a variety of spells. 

But who knows, would be great if they'd comment such changes, so that we at least would know the reasoning behind what they are doing. There would still be many cases where people disagree of course, but still would be good to know. 

[Popisdead]

14 hours ago, carnith said:

Could be that Hallowheart abused them in with several realm spells and spamming endless spells. A lot of those are gone now. 

That's the one.  I only really pay attention to LC and TE.

I suspect even 100 points they are still not bad.  I guess,.. yeah the Sorceress is quite a bit of more value.  Cause she can be the adjutant, the 10 Darkswords can be the Retinue but it would force your general to be like a Nomad Prince or something similar.