AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Boar]

15 hours ago, Frowny said:

This is super cool. thank you. Can you add  Varanguard with enscorcelled weapons? Those seem like the obvious pick to me. +1 wound on the spears you can get elsewhere and whole the extra rend is great, 5 attacks vs 3 makes them hugely better against most targets. I can't see myself ever taking the spears.

The other one I'd love to see is gorebeast chariots.

  

Will do. I will try to do some more in depth math dive later (I guess maybe today, or later in the week)

EDIT: let's start now actually with 1st episode, more to follow

So this is damage from units (not efficiency per point that will come later) against saves weighted as following:

4+ with weight 3

3+ with weight 2

5+ with weight 1

In essence it is assuming that 4+ saves will be encountered most often etc.

When "hard" is added in table that means it is against flat 2+ save

Charge is with stuff that triggers on charge duh, and special is well, special case for Gorebeast chariot after combat (spoiler it is same amount of MW as regular Chariot on charge on average). No marks etc. taken into account.

UNIT	MELEE	CHARGE	MELEE_HARD	CHARGE_HARD	SPECIAL
Chaos Chosen	11,8		7,4
Chaos Knights	4,6	9,8	2,2	5,8
Chaos Warriors [10 Halberd & Shield]	4,5		2,3
Chaos Chariot	2,0	4,3	0,9	3,3
Ogroid Theridons [GW]	10,7		6,7
Ogroid Theridons [Falchion]	5,7		3,0
Varanguard (Fellspear)	8,4	11,6	5,0	7,7
Varanguard (Ensorcelled)	10,4		5,4
Varanguard (Demonforged)	9,9		6,5
Gorebeast Chariot	2,8		1,2		2,3

That should give overview of what damage to expect from what units with split between normal and hard targets.

So about that Varanguard

We see that Fellspears if they manage charge are best overall, but if they don't they lag behind but not disastrously so. Demonforge appears to be niche weapon vs very hard armor. And Ensorcelled actually is just slightly behind spears in slaughtering common troops. As we can see choice can depend on your playstyle and local meta.

Of note is that due to smaller base number of attacks Fellspear and Demonforge can be more swingy with every success or fail mattering more than in case of Ensorcelled Weapon attacks. The same means however that they benefit more from Khorne Mark.

What about other choices?

In case of charioteers 4+ save is equilibrium point, and greatblade will be better against better armor. With caveat that it is also more vulnerable to -1 to hit like from Grot netters for instance.

For Chaos Warriors (after GV go extinct ofc.) point where 10 Warriors with Murderous Weapons gain advantage over their Halberd wielding cousins is 8 guys in combat.

Chaos Knight champion, well let AoS Stathammer show how it is. If you are thinking of using your Knights as mobile anvil actually giving Flail or Warhammer may be good enough, but probably annoyance as you will have to roll different profile. Due to -1 to hit effects on 4+ to hit hammer and Coalesced everywhere I would be tempted going for flail if I ever considered anything other than Lance.

And if someone wonders about Chaos Lord he still prefers 2 weapons, but difference while smaller is still significant especially against 4+ or lighter armor.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Boar

[Beliman]

Anyone know if there is an ability that do some wounds to one of your models (that it's not an endless spell or it's easier to use it?

Ogroid Theridons seems to be really good with Berserk Rage and that automatic +1atk when you need.

[JackStreicher]

24 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Anyone know if there is an ability that do some wounds to one of your models (that it's not an endless spell or it's easier to use it?

Ogroid Theridons seems to be really good with Berserk Rage and that automatic +1atk when you need.

Not sure about the arcane bolt wording - does it have to target an enemy unit?

[azdimy]

31 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Anyone know if there is an ability that do some wounds to one of your models (that it's not an endless spell or it's easier to use it?

Ogroid Theridons seems to be really good with Berserk Rage and that automatic +1atk when you need.

Fomoroid crusher, damned and deadly terrain.These are the standard Slaanesh tricks to wound their own units outside of endless spells

[azdimy]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Not sure about the arcane bolt wording - does it have to target an enemy unit?

Target enemy unit only

[whispersofblood]

5 hours ago, Boar said:

Will do. I will try to do some more in depth math dive later (I guess maybe today, or later in the week)

EDIT: let's start now actually with 1st episode, more to follow

So this is damage from units (not efficiency per point that will come later) against saves weighted as following:

4+ with weight 3

3+ with weight 2

5+ with weight 1

In essence it is assuming that 4+ saves will be encountered most often etc.

When "hard" is added in table that means it is against flat 2+ save

Charge is with stuff that triggers on charge duh, and special is well, special case for Gorebeast chariot after combat (spoiler it is same amount of MW as regular Chariot on charge on average). No marks etc. taken into account.

UNIT	MELEE	CHARGE	MELEE_HARD	CHARGE_HARD	SPECIAL
Chaos Chosen	11,8		7,4
Chaos Knights	4,6	9,8	2,2	5,8
Chaos Warriors [10 Halberd & Shield]	4,5		2,3
Chaos Chariot	2,0	4,3	0,9	3,3
Ogroid Theridons [GW]	10,7		6,7
Ogroid Theridons [Falchion]	5,7		3,0
Varanguard (Fellspear)	8,4	11,6	5,0	7,7
Varanguard (Ensorcelled)	10,4		5,4
Varanguard (Demonforged)	9,9		6,5
Gorebeast Chariot	2,8		1,2		2,3

That should give overview of what damage to expect from what units with split between normal and hard targets.

So about that Varanguard

We see that Fellspears if they manage charge are best overall, but if they don't they lag behind but not disastrously so. Demonforge appears to be niche weapon vs very hard armor. And Ensorcelled actually is just slightly behind spears in slaughtering common troops. As we can see choice can depend on your playstyle and local meta.

Of note is that due to smaller base number of attacks Fellspear and Demonforge can be more swingy with every success or fail mattering more than in case of Ensorcelled Weapon attacks. The same means however that they benefit more from Khorne Mark or Slaanesh Banner tough.

What about other choices?

In case of charioteers 4+ save is equilibrium point, and greatblade will be better against better armor. With caveat that it is also more vulnerable to -1 to hit like from Grot netters for instance.

For Chaos Warriors (after GV go extinct ofc.) point where 10 Warriors with Murderous Weapons gain advantage over their Halberd wielding cousins is 8 guys in combat.

Chaos Knight champion, well let AoS Stathammer show how it is. If you are thinking of using your Knights as mobile anvil actually giving Flail or Warhammer may be good enough, but probably annoyance as you will have to roll different profile. Due to -1 to hit effects on 4+ to hit hammer and Coalesced everywhere I would be tempted going for flail if I ever considered anything other than Lance.

And if someone wonders about Chaos Lord he still prefers 2 weapons, but difference while smaller is still significant especially against 4+ or lighter armor

As an FYI varanguard can't take banners as they don't have a standard bearer. 

[Halkbat]

The new eye of the gods table seems really fun especially since you can stack the same effect on normal troops. The dream of 3 or more rend in chosen is possible.

[Boar]

45 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

As an FYI varanguard can't take banners as they don't have a standard bearer. 

Thx, fixed

So onto efficiencies:

First a little warning, while efficiency per point can be helpful in analysis you have to remember that actual game is played with discrete units. Hence I actually posted damage per unit not per point few posts back.

Mind that all of this is something that I do for my amusement as I like playing with numbers.

Assumptions:

for melee efficiency:

-save 4+ most common, followed by 3+, than 5+

-in case of charge damage present, it is counted along with regular damage with equal weights (or in other words average of both)

for effective wounds efficiency:

-rend 0 most common, followed by rend -1, followed by MW

-I didn't include Gorebeast chariot MW this time, it is quite peculiary placed in sequence I didn't decide how I am going to treat that yet

-in comparison with other armies you will see mostly units I own

EDIT: and no heroes for now as they behave quite diferently to other units

also top 20 results were aplicable

Charts:

Further comparison just with some Mounted Troops from different armies:

Or just S2D versus some of Soulblight stuff

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Boar

[Frowny]

That is some amazing analysis. Thank you. Unrelatedly i didn't realize saurus knights were that good.

More generally, your tables seem pretty sensitive to the armor of the target and rend of the attacks, and using all out defence or mystic shield. It seems like some of these guys might look way better with those easily available buffs, compared to like zombies or something.

Another the this battletome will make you ask is 'what is too much'. For example, 10 chosen fighting twice will kill almost anything. Maybe that's overkill and you'd be better off with knights (slightly less killy bit faster) or even warriors for more sturdiness. 

On the other hand, 20 warriors is very very sturdy. So sturdy that they may not die regardless but maybe you'd be happier with chosen or knights (who are still pretty sturdy) who are killier and/or more mobile.

[ChaosUndivided]

I like this deep dive into stats, its all good and well, and perhaps @Boar alluded to this, but the way things look on paper and the way they play out on tabletop dont always jive.

For example the Chosen are units of 5 on what will now be 40mm bases? So even if all 5 reach target they wont all get to fight, reducing their damage output considerably. They have 3up save now so they wont drop like flies against any old shooting but still no mortal wound protection, which by the way Varanguard now have.

The Gorebeast Chariot thing is actually really appealing since Unstoppable Momentum allows you to jump over screens, something sorely in need of, allowing the chariot to pin shooters fast. They also have big bases wich is problematic if taking 3. Trying to position them outside of 3" after jumping a screen will be tuff to do.

The Manticore not having a degrading profile is huge buff. We havnt seen what the new non wiz version can do now but he might make it back on the table. It wasn't wise to get in a fist fight with the wiz but it almost always comes to that so it helps him too. I could see giving him the command trait to know all spells.

Some combos that look good to me:

Pledge of the Dark Gods + Chaotic Conduit particularly on the Manticore or possibly another mounted hero.

Knights of Empty Throne + Archaon it doesnt say you cant include him and making Varanguard general is far less appealing now. But he gets to run + charge along with all other mounted units.

Varanguard + Host of Everchosen are battleline and rally on 4up pretty ridiculous.

[Xasz]

3 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Knights of Empty Throne + Archaon it doesnt say you cant include him and making Varanguard general is far less appealing now. But he gets to run + charge along with all other mounted units.

No, Archaon has the Host of the Everchosen Keyword on his Warscroll now.

"If a unit already has a different subfaction keyword on its warscroll, it cannot gain another one. This does not preclude you from including the unit in your army, but you cannot use the allegiance abilities for its subfaction."

[Grimrock]

4 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

For example the Chosen are units of 5 on what will now be 40mm bases? So even if all 5 reach target they wont all get to fight, reducing their damage output considerably. They have 3up save now so they wont drop like flies against any old shooting but still no mortal wound protection, which by the way Varanguard now have.

 

Just a quick thought on this one, based on the images in the preview I'm thinking chosen are still on 32 mil bases. If I remember daemon princes are on 60, then ogroid would probably be 50 and in the pictures the bases look a fair bit smaller than the ogroids, so that would be 32 to me. It's tough to be sure though, but even if they aren't they finally gave them 2" on their weapons so it should be pretty easy to get them all to attack. I agree with your point though, need to get the models on the table and see how things play out. 

Edit: actually now I'm looking at them again and I'm less sure, they do seem a little small on the base of they're 32mil. You might be right and they're on 40's, still the reach should help but that does make things a bit trickier for 10 man units. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Grimrock

[Rors]

Won't last forever but whole GVs are a thing you'll be able to fight in two ranks with chosen no matter the base size while they're battleline

[Boar]

6 hours ago, Frowny said:

That is some amazing analysis. Thank you. Unrelatedly i didn't realize saurus knights were that good.

More generally, your tables seem pretty sensitive to the armor of the target and rend of the attacks, and using all out defence or mystic shield. It seems like some of these guys might look way better with those easily available buffs, compared to like zombies or something.

 

6 hours ago, ChaosUndivided said:

I like this deep dive into stats, its all good and well, and perhaps @Boar alluded to this, but the way things look on paper and the way they play out on tabletop dont always jive.

For example the Chosen are units of 5 on what will now be 40mm bases? So even if all 5 reach target they wont all get to fight, reducing their damage output considerably. They have 3up save now so they wont drop like flies against any old shooting but still no mortal wound protection, which by the way Varanguard now have.

So few remarks

Yes generally how it will play will be somewhat different,

I already stated that especially efficencies can be somewhat misleading due to the fact that we play with actual units, and not some blobs for arbitrary amount of points. As for base sizes, just a moment...

What you could also like f.ex. for further analysis and quick reference is "damage effciency per inch of frontage". As that is something that is strenght of various heroes in particular. There is lot of parameters like that, in 2.0 with coherency easier to calculate I had parameter of ZOC (zone of control) efficiency. That gave me cost per inch if unit was deployed in line as chaff/screen, Raptoryx was highest than and thus with their high move they made for quite good screens.

When it comes to Mystic shield etc. those can change it somewhat and benefit to those with already high base save is significantly higher. Here is my table defining various multiplications for purposes of establishing effective wounds that I use for calculations. Simple example is that with 4+ save and rend 0, you will on average need 10 damage to kill 5 wound hero, so multiplication of 2 is used.

SAVE	MW	RND 0	RND -1	RND -2
7	1,00	1,00	1,00	1,00
6	1,20	1,20	1,00	1,00
5	1,50	1,50	1,20	1,00
4	2,00	2,00	1,50	1,20
3	3,00	3,00	2,00	1,50
2	6,00	6,00	3,00	2,00
1	6,00	6,00	6,00	3,00
6RR	1,44	1,44	1,00	1,00
5RR	2,25	2,25	1,44	1,00
4RR	4,00	4,00	2,25	1,44
3RR	9,00	9,00	4,00	2,25
2RR	36,00	36,00	9,00	4,00
6R1	1,24	1,24	1,00	1,00
5R1	1,64	1,64	1,24	1,00
4R1	2,40	2,40	1,64	1,24
3R1	4,50	4,50	2,40	1,64
2R1	36,00	36,00	4,50	2,40

In short this is something you have to keep in mind as no single report/chart will be able to capture complexity of system like AoS. Especially as Mystic Shield or AoD use up resources.

Yes Saurus Knights are effcient and with buffs etc. can be pretty punchy, some good players even won something with heavy Saurus Knights lists. Tough they don't scale that well with coherency, but someone can say well they are cheap/efficient and I will risk it. Or rather since they are efficient I can go for some inefficincy and they still will be good. In Koatl's Claw 15 Knights charging (ofc. 5 in back for coherency and best target is large infantry unit) with Serpent Staff and exploding hits from Scarvet can deal 30 dmg, for 330 pts only! Tough it's pretty extreme and unwieldy case, let's be honest. This is one advantage of such charts as sometimes you may find neat things.

Going back to base sizes. Let's look at Boingrot Bounderz in particular as there are 2 things going there.

First while many units are put in as not reinforced, some actually are reinforced. That depends for me on how usually I would use that unit, or I think they could often be used. Which serves to make this data bit more "realistic". It's simply more useful to me when I can look at actual unit as among other things GW likes give out conditional bonuses based on sizes of units, and it's pain.

Second those 10 Boingrotz achieve this efficiency in attack with only 6 Squig Gobs hitting due to their 1" range. No it's not aoutomatic I change it at input level, too much funky rules everywhere, sigh. So base sizes are taken into account. It's not 100% accuracy especially as that would actually need data from games how pile-ins actually happens, and it's not going to happen.

And since we talk about analysis of that chart and it's limits, besides defensive buffs there is also potential for offensive etc. So those Boingrots with Shrooms gain 50% attacks more, however their potential on charge is heavily influenced by impact hits so it won't actually increase by 50%. And since we are with Boingrotz if they are so efficient than why they are not winning everything. Well they are not that good on arguably most important stat in game, Move characteristic which on average is 7 and is actually random.

[Holy_Diver]

Two technical questions:
1) Is it possible to play The Blue Scribes as an ally and still have access to the spheres of magic in the DoT tome? Because if that were the case we would have 6 Khorne Fellspears Varanguard that would produce 48 attacks at -4 rend in charge ... 😅 (in any case we can reproduce this crazy train with Purple Sun in Cabalists)

2) Sigvald with warshrine prayer on can charge with 3d6 and then do the same amount of attacks? Pretty Nightmarish too.
 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

Two technical questions:
1) Is it possible to play The Blue Scribes as an ally and still have access to the spheres of magic in the DoT tome? Because if that were the case we would have 6 Khorne Fellspears Varanguard that would produce 48 attacks at -4 rend in charge ... 😅 (in any case we can reproduce this crazy train with Purple Sun in Cabalists)

2) Sigvald with warshrine prayer on can charge with 3d6 and then do the same amount of attacks? Pretty Nightmarish too.
 

1) This is contended because spell lores are part of the allegiance abilities, so the question is whether the warscroll gives them access to the lores despite the fact that the model isn't being taken as part of the allegiance. I think the answer is absolutely yes and they should get the spells since the rule is on the warscroll and warscroll rules win in the case of conflicts (sidebar on section 1.6 of the core rules), but it wouldn't be terrible to get an FAQ to clear it up. 

2) Yup, that seems correct assuming that adding the extra dice doesn't count as a modified roll. Also, holy moly I didn't realize that the shrine doesn't specify Slaves to Darkness as a target anymore, just the relevant mark. That makes them really interesting as an ally for Nurgle at least. That +1 to wound would be extremely effective on a number of Nurgle units. 

Edit: Added clarity on first point

Edited October 19, 2022 by Grimrock

[JackOfBlades]

1 hour ago, Holy_Diver said:

Two technical questions:
1) Is it possible to play The Blue Scribes as an ally and still have access to the spheres of magic in the DoT tome? Because if that were the case we would have 6 Khorne Fellspears Varanguard that would produce 48 attacks at -4 rend in charge ... 😅 (in any case we can reproduce this crazy train with Purple Sun in Cabalists)
 

Since spell lores are locked to being taken in a particular 'army' (1.4 of the core rules), allies cannot take spells from those lores. For example, the Tzeentch lores say "TZEENTCH WIZARD HERO in a Disciples of Tzeentch army".

Edited October 19, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[idn0971]

How does this look as a potential list with the new book? Was going for all the cool looking classic stuff that is getting new sculpts.

Hosts of the Everchosen
220 Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General Khorne, Death Dealer, Crown of Command  - Warlord
115 Chaos Lord on Foot, Nurgle - Warlord
120 Chaos Sorcerer, Slaanesh, Daemonic Speed, Arcane Tome - Warlord
100 Exalted Hero of Chaos, Khorne

440 20 Chaos Warriors, Nurgle, Nurgle Banner -Retinue with Lord on foot - warlord
460 10 Knights, Khorne - Bounty Hunters
480 10 Chosen, Slaanesh, Slaanesh Banner - Bounty Hunters

40 point Endless spell

1,975 Points

Chosen are slaanesh marked to allow for run and charge and get the banner so they still get +1 attack on the charge. Chaos Warriors act as an anvil with all the nurgle buffs and then the knights go with the karkadrak and murder things since they can fight in two ranks now. Exalted hero is there mostly to fill out the list since he looks cool and we don't know what he does yet.

Edited October 19, 2022 by idn0971

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, JackOfBlades said:

Since spell lores are locked to being taken in a particular 'army' (1.4 of the core rules), allies cannot take spells from those lores. For example, the Tzeentch lores say "TZEENTCH WIZARD HERO in a Disciples of Tzeentch army".

I how the rules pretty well, but the doubt rise up when a warscroll say "this model knows all the spell from...etc", without specifying if it must be part of a DoT army for this. So We need a FAQ for this, because RAW it works.

ps: and abilities always overwrite general rules.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Frowny]

@idn0971

I think a lot of lists will look like yours, fundamentally 3 different hammers/anvil units and support.

Some thoughts- i think you want some cheap throwaway units. You may need to hold back objectives, have screens or gum things up. I might drop the Lord on foot and the exalted hero and get some marauder horsemen, cultists or furies or something.

The Nurgle warriors seem excellent and near impossible to shift. However they are slow. Would you be happier with more knights? I'm unsure but that's the kind of tradeoff i imagine we make a lot, which 3 big hammers are the best, how much durability (warriors) vs. speed (knights) vs killiness (chosen)

[Lord Krungharr]

Well it certainly looks like I'll need some Chosen and/or Warriors to run a halfway decent StD army from what I've been reading.  So far I only have 4 chariots for battleline, a Soul Grinder, foot Lord, and 2 Sphiranxes.  And Archaon.

Wondering if I will need a Karkadrak Lord or should I invest in a Manticore Sorcerer?

Or should I just say to heck with it and get 3 Mutaliths?!?!

Edited October 19, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Halkbat]

I am going to miss mask of darkness but we should still be able to have tzeentch wizards fling each other into range for a spell or maybe getting 8 fold cast closer to the center of the battlefield turn 1.

[idn0971]

1 hour ago, Frowny said:

@idn0971

I think a lot of lists will look like yours, fundamentally 3 different hammers/anvil units and support.

Some thoughts- i think you want some cheap throwaway units. You may need to hold back objectives, have screens or gum things up. I might drop the Lord on foot and the exalted hero and get some marauder horsemen, cultists or furies or something.

The Nurgle warriors seem excellent and near impossible to shift. However they are slow. Would you be happier with more knights? I'm unsure but that's the kind of tradeoff i imagine we make a lot, which 3 big hammers are the best, how much durability (warriors) vs. speed (knights) vs killiness (chosen)

How about some chaos legionnaires? They look cool and are fairly cheap and tough.And they could also be thrown in expert conquerors with the warriors to add some more capturing power.

[ChaosUndivided]

There is still a lot of warscrolls to see, the cultist didnt change much in points so their scrolls might not have changed much but there might be some new edgy synergy, and they all have battleline now, no restrictions?

Im not really sold on Chosen at 240, the 2 inch swing is nice but 5 move and no mortal wound save? Even with a good eye of the gods roll you get a 6up ward but that is statistically terrible. Varanguard for 50 more points buys you 10" move and a 4+ rune shield. 

Im syked the knights and warriors got pretty much what everyone wanted or at least has been suggesting on here for past 2 years. They have always been in a lot of list i play so im definitely looking forward to deploying some reinforced blobs.

[idn0971]

The point of chosen is to be your very consistent hammer that takes buffs extremely well. Knights and varanguard are faster but both rely on the charge to do the most consistent damage. Chosen allow you to do that sort of damage even not on the charge and have reliable mortal wounds in addition to crack even the heaviest armor. While they lack the 5+ against mortals they still have a 3+ save and 15 wounds and are a good rally target in something like hosts of the everchosen.