Warhammer - The Old World

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

The mass ranks is why the game went away. There were too many models. I’m talking multiple blocks of of 30-40 models. That is on top of model ranges not being refreshed or updated, no books.

[Hollow]

There was a whole host of reasons The End Times came. Whilst there is little to no debate about the initial launch being problematic, AoS has developed and matured into its own setting. I do think that many underestimate or don't really consider the significant paradigm shift across the cultural zeitgeist when it comes to fantasy settings since The End Times. Fantasy settings have exploded over the last decade, with Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons and more all being hugely popular. 

The lack of support and stagnation certainly contributed but I also think that the customer base (and more importantly GW) was just in a different place at the time, Fantasy had begun to lose its identity and direction. When The End Times came Games Workshop's share price was around 500p per share. Today it sits at around 10,000p per share (it was even higher during Covid) The company is still clearly going through growing pains but I feel like the Games Workshop of today is in a much better position to launch and support ToW than frankly at any other time. 

Finally, I know people don't like to admit it but customer spending habits have also completely changed and they are willing to drop significantly more money on products like this. 

[Noserenda]

Giant monsters and cool weird centrepiece models absolutely sold, if anything people begrudged having to buy so many infantry to function in 8th when that got fully out of hand. The influence is obvious on both AoS and 40k where big centrepieces are essentially standard issue now and they pretty much abandoned updating basic troops for all too many years. 

Nothing is popular everywhere but those things absolutely succeeded as far as GW was concerned. Though even AoS has been getting lower fantasy these days the same broad strokes are true.

[Gareth 🍄]

I really disliked hordes, I think that's what helped turn a lot of people away from the game here too.

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Thinking about it. I think 3 ranks of 5 should be the cap for units. It’s still a lot to build, paint, rank and move around. Any more it becomes cumbersome

[Mikosan]

The problem with big centerpiece models in old fantasy is the minute they hit the battlefield they caught cannonballs or giant bolts in the face and never did much of anything in game besides look cool.  At least that was my experience in 8th vs Dwarf cannons, High Elf bolt throwers, warp lightning cannons, etc.... 

Nobody I gamed with in those days bought minis from GW, all second hand ebay items and the like.  If ToW is going to be multiple large units of resin models and recasts of models from the early aughts and older, thats going to be a tough sell.  My love of the the old world is rooted in being a kid at the time, not the actual game but I hope for the best for the folks waiting to jump in.

[Hollow]

I don't think units should be hard-capped in that way. I'd like to see the return of standard regiment sizes of 12/20 depending on the troop type. (I'd love to see the return of the 20-man regiment boxes with full command and movement tray, with Elites being 5/10 12/16 depending)  

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Just had some interactions online with WFB players on a hobby group. We were talking about the Chorf DLC for TWW, and blabla End Times, AoS... guess where it went. 

Honestly, this is one big problem for me wanting to get into TOW when it comes out. The community. So far, the elements of the Old World/Fantasy community I have met online don't compel me to join them to play TOW with them when it comes out. I'm sure there are so good people in there, but most of the guys I have met so far are at best grumpy, at worst toxic. I'm not sure this is the kind of people I want to hang out with playing games at the FLGS. And it's sad, because I feel like this is a disservice to the game at large.

Do you think the WFB/Old World community at large will have an impact on TOW when it comes out and after that, on its growth ?

[Hollow]

I think it's utterly absurd to categorize people interested in TOW as a single "community" to start with. Like life, there will be all kinds of different people and groups. If you don't like a particular group or person, find someone else or another group to play with. Wargaming in general has a percentage of perpetually unhappy 'comic book guys'. 40k has plenty of toxicity as well (just read Dakka lol) Don't let any single group define what a setting (That appeals to millions of people) is or isn't. 

[Twisted Firaun]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Just had some interactions online with WFB players on a hobby group. We were talking about the Chorf DLC for TWW, and blabla End Times, AoS... guess where it went. 

Honestly, this is one big problem for me wanting to get into TOW when it comes out. The community. So far, the elements of the Old World/Fantasy community I have met online don't compel me to join them to play TOW with them when it comes out. I'm sure there are so good people in there, but most of the guys I have met so far are at best grumpy, at worst toxic. I'm not sure this is the kind of people I want to hang out with playing games at the FLGS. And it's sad, because I feel like this is a disservice to the game at large.

Do you think the WFB/Old World community at large will have an impact on TOW when it comes out and after that, on its growth ?

I think that ultimately, TOW and it’s growth will be decided by two things: the rules and the models.

Despite what certain groups online say, the announcement of TOW has largely been met with approval: I know for a fact that this community was hyped on the rumour thread when the news came out. Change will always be met with resistance, just look back to when Guilliman and 8th of 40K came and threw the galaxy into turmoil for proof (or more appropriately, The End Times and AOS’ launch). 
What made these changes bearable to the community at large? The new models. 
Yes, we all love to bash the Primaris, but do you hear many complaints about the Death Guard? Or what about when the Hedonites range was announced? And do I need to bring up the glory of the Kharadron Overlords and The Leagues of Votann? The ranges speak for themselves. From what we’ve seen of the new models for Bretonnia and The Tomb Kings, I genuinely believe that TOW will have some wonderful kits, and can’t wait to see what GW comes up with for the “new” factions like Kislev and Cathay.

TOW will live and die by its models and rules, much like any other game. Who cares about the complainers, gatekeepers, and PC-Gamers when the first rule of Warhammer is to have fun?

[Noserenda]

Yeah a lot of computer game fans like to rag on AoS but they arent going to play the game regardless, its the same IP but computer gaming is nothing like actual wargaming as a hobby. Took me a few years to realise why i just dont like most computer wargames, including total war, well except Arena, the best TW.

Not even sure rules are ultimately the decider on success, because huge numbers of models will be bought and never used to play OW. Collectors, painters, piles of shame, AoS players, 40k conversions, D&D, even other versions of warhammer will all go on the sales numbers after all. 

Fixed units sizes would be ******, there is a significant element of strategy to unit sizes and formations in warhammer, if you reduced that down to fixed blocks it would be dire. I think that was a big chunk of the problem with hordes, for mainline combat units you were semi forced into these huge unwieldy blocks that look great but essentially decide the fate of a huge chunk of your army in the deployment phases. 

But that could work for chaff troops! one of my buddies was using units of 50+ zombies in 6th or 7th (forget which) as giant 10x5 roadblocks with a necromancer up to no good behind them. Fun times

 But yeah decisions about width v depth, manoeuvrability and flexibility are all big parts of making warhammer fun, just make units useful at whatever size. 

[Noserenda]

On 3/31/2023 at 6:49 PM, Mikosan said:

The problem with big centerpiece models in old fantasy is the minute they hit the battlefield they caught cannonballs or giant bolts in the face and never did much of anything in game besides look cool.  At least that was my experience in 8th vs Dwarf cannons, High Elf bolt throwers, warp lightning cannons, etc.... 

Nobody I gamed with in those days bought minis from GW, all second hand ebay items and the like.  If ToW is going to be multiple large units of resin models and recasts of models from the early aughts and older, thats going to be a tough sell.  My love of the the old world is rooted in being a kid at the time, not the actual game but I hope for the best for the folks waiting to jump in.

That always depended on the monster tbh, i particularly recall the bloody skaven abomination thing being annoying hard to stop, and my forest dragon in earlier editions was just fine, despite being one of the weaker types of dragon. 

Id expect the experience as a kid to differ a lot too, mine is pretty foggy from back in 4th edition but as a born dwarf player i know i was lugging cannonballs downrange with gay abandon

[Beliman]

17 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Honestly, this is one big problem for me wanting to get into TOW when it comes out. The community

We have a big Fantasy community here and a lot of content creators (3 total war partners, 12 gaming groups and a lot of youtubers) based on warhammer fantasy. We even have a fanmade editions that has a tournament circuit around the country.

I helped with some scenarios and tournament rules for some of them and promoted a few events to reach as much people as I could.

But the usual "AoS is trash" is not something that I want to be reminded every few minuts and that's my experience every time that someone talks about AoS.

[Bosskelot]

When it comes to hordes and unit sizes 7th was the edition that really started the decline and loss of popularity of the game, as the rank bonus was changed from 4 wide to 5 wide.

This immediately overnight invalidated and made worse a load of regiment sets that previously were 16 models, so you could have a 4x4 unit and have one that was fully functional and able to gain full rank bonus; suddenly in 7th it now was lacking 4 models for that juicy +3 rank bonus. Now sure, in 6th people would often take bigger units and go 20 minimum anyway, but it gave people an easy way to just get regiments onto the table as a jumping off point.

Also around this same time the new Empire state troops came out... as a unit of 10 rather than the old unit of 20. That certainly didn't bode well for how the game would continue to be handled going forward.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

They just need to makes viable single box units.

Iirc 8th edition worse thing was to have multiple too much boxes to field a single viable unit.

Other than death stars and magic problems.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Snorri Nelriksson

[Blueraven84]

Some Natfka rumours, apply salt as much as needed:

 

Rumors via a great source here on Faeit 212

I got more Stuff about Warhammer The Old World;

 

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;

-25mm - small Infantry

-30mm - larger Infantry

-60mm - monstrous Infantry,

-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.

Launch Set will be (as said) Empire vs. Orcs

Bretonia and Khemri were previews to show "those factions are not forgotten, we will bring complete new Stuff for them!"

Khemri will get the biggest range overhauls

Some older Models will return to production

First (6) Factions to get releases will be Empire > Orcs & Goblins > Chaos > Kislev > Bretonia > Dwarfs

[Chikout]

13 minutes ago, Blueraven84 said:

Some Natfka rumours, apply salt as much as needed:

 

Rumors via a great source here on Faeit 212

I got more Stuff about Warhammer The Old World;

 

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;

-25mm - small Infantry

-30mm - larger Infantry

-60mm - monstrous Infantry,

-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.

 

Don't believe this for a second. Remember how well the rules for measuring went with first edition AoS. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 minutes ago, Blueraven84 said:

Some Natfka rumours, apply salt as much as needed:

 

Rumors via a great source here on Faeit 212

I got more Stuff about Warhammer The Old World;

 

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;

-25mm - small Infantry

-30mm - larger Infantry

-60mm - monstrous Infantry,

-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.

Launch Set will be (as said) Empire vs. Orcs

Bretonia and Khemri were previews to show "those factions are not forgotten, we will bring complete new Stuff for them!"

Khemri will get the biggest range overhauls

Some older Models will return to production

First (6) Factions to get releases will be Empire > Orcs & Goblins > Chaos > Kislev > Bretonia > Dwarfs

That sounds pretty reasonable. Except this:

"There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases."

They will have to set a standard for base measurements in competitive play because it is important. Claiming that you can use whatever you want is, at best, a trick: You could always do this casually, but there will be a standard competitively.

However, this sounds like exactly the kind of weasleling that a big company would attempt in order to keep goodwill high, so I believe it.

[Gareth 🍄]

Thought they'd maybe go 32mm squares for larger infantry instead of 30mm to more neatly match up with AoS minis.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, Gareth 🍄 said:

Thought they'd maybe go 32mm squares for larger infantry instead of 30mm to more neatly match up with AoS minis.

A 30mm square had a diagonal of ~42mm, so there should be plenty of space.

[Bolfrig Bearhide]

9 hours ago, Blueraven84 said:

Some Natfka rumours, apply salt as much as needed:

 

Rumors via a great source here on Faeit 212

I got more Stuff about Warhammer The Old World;

 

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;

-25mm - small Infantry

-30mm - larger Infantry

-60mm - monstrous Infantry,

-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.

Launch Set will be (as said) Empire vs. Orcs

Bretonia and Khemri were previews to show "those factions are not forgotten, we will bring complete new Stuff for them!"

Khemri will get the biggest range overhauls

Some older Models will return to production

First (6) Factions to get releases will be Empire > Orcs & Goblins > Chaos > Kislev > Bretonia > Dwarfs

Yeah this sounds like a load of rubbish. I highly doubt that we would have seen Tomb King renders if they’re not even within the first 6 factions to get releases. 

[Chikout]

8 hours ago, Bolfrig Bearhide said:

Yeah this sounds like a load of rubbish. I highly doubt that we would have seen Tomb King renders if they’re not even within the first 6 factions to get releases. 

The launch box is definitely Tomb kings Vs Bretonnians. If we are seeing renders already it means the full  designs are finalised. These aren't prototypes. Look at the cities models, the shields and weapons are exactly the same as the renders. I'm sure we will see finished models at Warhammer Fest. This whole game a is a play on nostalgia. What better way to do that than to reintroduce the two lost factions? 

[Baron Klatz]

Well I’m still not 100% convinced on that but boy does Valrak sound leaps more accurate compared to that nonsensical wishlist Faeit posted. At least He actually got Adepticon right compared to the misses Faeit/Natfka has been swinging.

Also fairly certain any list containing “Empire” in the prediction is way off base anyway since it’s not a unified Empire but the four factions the articles presented. So at least say Reikland vs greenskins or something.

[Bosskelot]

Empire would still be accurate as like Marines of the HH they will just be palette swaps.

[Noserenda]

The problem with that is that base size has a very real impact on the rules of warhammer, smaller bases are considerably better for both manoeuvring and getting/avoiding more attacks in combat, they must be aware of that writing the rules? Not sure there is any way around that fact either as its so intrinsic to the mechanics of the game.

The Monstrous infantry base size sounds enormous too... Something i hadnt thought about actually was all the cost of designing and making new bases, they cant go back to the old ones really due to scale creep and trying to avoid clone armies. Which implies theyd want to recoup some of that money selling them to folks for rebasing. Specialist games is, if anything, too conservative, so i cant imagine them doing a loss leader on something like that?