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Eevika

Hero phase healing is not well pointed

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In my honest opinion GW points hero phase healing abilities way too high when dpr is infinitely better. In the worst case scenario your hero who relies on healing to be tanky might go trough 3 combat and 2 enemy shooting phases before getting a single opportunity to regain wounds when a hero with dpr can constantly block wounds. How is this balanced in anyway? My personal experiences with this include Troggoths and Nurlge units.

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Maybe it's intentional that nothing should be able to tank 3 combat phases and 2 shooting phases

Maybe focused fire is what the designers intended to be the counter to healing. Nothing should live forever, stalemates and tarpits are boring

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I don't think much is pointed correctly but I think thats part of the fun.  Finding the things not pointed correctly and then finding the things underpointed more specifically.

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I definitely think GW overvalues healing. Restoring D3 wounds is basically nothing, unless it's a free ability that's going off every round. In the modern AoS world, where units can easily dish out boatloads of wounds or mortal wounds in a single round, a couple of points of healing means nothing. Take Lifeswarm for example---nobody gave it a second look until the new Cities book offered it reliably in empowered form (for D6 healing/models returned).

That said, the key is warscroll acumen when doling out healing abilities. You don't generally want to give healing to units that are already nearly impossible to kill (this leads to the immovable object), but you can give it to units that are otherwise vulnerable to damage. It's all relative to the models it's used on.

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I think it's worth noting that healing is better in smaller games.  There's less stuff in a 1k game to focus down your heroes/monsters than in a 2k game.  I also find healing good even in larger games when it's on the periphery away from the main damage threats.

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This is in part a lingering response to old sylvaneth back in like 2016/17

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8 hours ago, PJetski said:

Maybe it's intentional that nothing should be able to tank 3 combat phases and 2 shooting phases

Maybe focused fire is what the designers intended to be the counter to healing. Nothing should live forever, stalemates and tarpits are boring

I think what he is saying is that due to double turn mechanic, characters and units relying on hero phase healing might end up having to tank that many phases before they can use their healing. And as most units can't, those healing abilities are less relevant. 

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Posted (edited)

I believe they over-value several mechanics in the game. Anything to do with bravery is basically a waste as CP's are very common and remedy all battleshock issues (frankly they either need to commit to this mechanic or remove it. I like it as a mechanic but it is so neutered it may as well not exists and it overpoints many models for no justifiable reason). 

 

Healing is definitely one of them. In aos 1.0 battles were slow enough and damage low enough that healing d3 made a difference and having it pointed heavily was worthwhile. In 2.0 its sort of OK against diffuse shooting situations where people take potshots at your lookout sir general and it can help mitigate that but the usefulness is as limited as the shooting lists I face (basically celestar spam only, maybe new greywater fastness incoming), and the way shooting lists are played are not to deal diffuse damage but to focus fire something off the board.

 

Which brings me to why healing feels so overcosted in AOS. The way 2.0 is currently played is focus fire from limited shooting and blender units with one wipe potential in combat coupled with a general lack of defensive abilities in the game (frostheart and heathguard are the only units I would consider even vaguely tanky in this game) make it so units die very quickly. Heroes are more buff or assassination pieces than herohammer-esque units of days gone past so they pop like soap bubbles (gotrek excepted but hes a special character costing over 500 points) when confronted with any reasonably damage dealing unit (hearthguard/witches/plaguemonks/eels etc.).

 

I do feel that healing is far over-costed. You rarely end up using it unless it ressurects (even then lifeswarm is also over-costed for being predatory and could likely be 30-40 points only). Anecdotally, I have  2 hydras and I can count on one hand the number of times they have successfully regenerated and it mattered. They either kill what I smash them into. Or they die. There is never an in-between where the relatively pillow-fisted hydra manages a slug-fest against any unit even when supported. I just use them as stall pieces with large bases to block charge lanes (it helps that they look a lot scarier than they are/distraction carnifex and I could maneuver knights/dragons/executioners if they were allied and actually win the combat). 

 

So after that essay yes I agree. Healing is grossly over-costed. So are many other abilities (leadership bonuses/healing/shooting/most damaging predatory spells/debuffs etc.). And I would very much like to see defensive abilities make a comeback so units survive more than one combat every once in a while (no, for those who are obsessed with considering a combat that lasts beyond one single combat round to be tedious and "slow the flow" I do not want 5 turn, 10 combat slugfests. I do want units that can reliably hold for 1-2 rounds of combat which is not unreasonable. hearthguard beserkers are a good example of how it could be implemented but maybe turned down to a 6 from a 10).  

Edited by TheCovenLord
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Posted (edited)
On 10/4/2019 at 9:22 PM, Mutton said:

I definitely think GW overvalues healing. Restoring D3 wounds is basically nothing, unless it's a free ability that's going off every round. In the modern AoS world, where units can easily dish out boatloads of wounds or mortal wounds in a single round, a couple of points of healing means nothing. Take Lifeswarm for example---nobody gave it a second look until the new Cities book offered it reliably in empowered form (for D6 healing/models returned).

That said, the key is warscroll acumen when doling out healing abilities. You don't generally want to give healing to units that are already nearly impossible to kill (this leads to the immovable object), but you can give it to units that are otherwise vulnerable to damage. It's all relative to the models it's used on.

Healing isn't bad at all on tanky units with high save and FNP ontop. The moment the unit isn't tanky, sure the healing isn't great and you are likely better off casting a damaging spell on the opponent.

Gotrek comes to mind, and you can also make a rather tanky Megaboss on Maw Krusha with 2+ save and 4+ against spells/endless spells. Healing D3 or D6 isn't meaningless on those models when 1 single wound actually translates into multiple attacks/wounds in reality due to saves.

Edited by Kasper

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34 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Healing isn't bad at all on tanky units with high save and FNP ontop. The moment the unit isn't tanky, sure the healing isn't great and you are likely better off casting a damaging spell on the opponent.

Gotrek comes to mind, and you can also make a rather tanky Megaboss on Maw Krusha with 2+ save and 4+ against spells/endless spells. Healing D3 or D6 isn't meaningless on those models when 1 single wound actually translates into multiple attacks/wounds in reality due to saves.

Its just sad that most units with healing dont get a dpr at all. Goes to waste there

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8 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Its just sad that most units with healing dont get a dpr at all. Goes to waste there

Honestly I would rather not see it at all, so I'm okay with healing generally being weak and only good in few specific scenarios. I want models on the table to die, it is no fun and actually rather frustrating to play against an opponent with a model that just wont die but keep killing your stuff.

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Just now, Kasper said:

Honestly I would rather not see it at all, so I'm okay with healing generally being weak and only good in few specific scenarios. I want models on the table to die, it is no fun and actually rather frustrating to play against an opponent with a model that just wont die but keep killing your stuff.

I would like there to be actual tanks in the game. I think only Gotek and Frosthearth Phoenix are the only true tanks right now. When everything is just a super high damage dealer or support piece nothing has personality 

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1 minute ago, Eevika said:

I would like there to be actual tanks in the game. I think only Gotek and Frosthearth Phoenix are the only true tanks right now. When everything is just a super high damage dealer or support piece nothing has personality 

Hearthguard Berzerkers are pretty close to tanks. It is an example of a unit that I personally don't find enjoyable. It causes tons of issues in casual play and in general it is just not really fun to face against.

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2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Hearthguard Berzerkers are pretty close to tanks. It is an example of a unit that I personally don't find enjoyable. It causes tons of issues in casual play and in general it is just not really fun to face against.

But is it really fun to just smash plague monks in to Witch elves and the one who hits first destroys the entire enemy unit. 

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2 minutes ago, Eevika said:

But is it really fun to just smash plague monks in to Witch elves and the one who hits first destroys the entire enemy unit. 

I think it is significantly more fun for people to play where both players throw dice and models from both armies die, rather than one army shruging off almost every wound.

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9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Healing isn't bad at all on tanky units with high save and FNP ontop. The moment the unit isn't tanky, sure the healing isn't great and you are likely better off casting a damaging spell on the opponent.

Gotrek comes to mind, and you can also make a rather tanky Megaboss on Maw Krusha with 2+ save and 4+ against spells/endless spells. Healing D3 or D6 isn't meaningless on those models when 1 single wound actually translates into multiple attacks/wounds in reality due to saves.

What I meant was from a game design space you don't want to give already tough units like Maw Krushas the opportunity to heal a lot of damage, because that leads to unfun situations where a unit is nigh unkillable. From a player perspective, yes, healing an already durable unit is the ideal.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Kasper said:

I think it is significantly more fun for people to play where both players throw dice and models from both armies die, rather than one army shruging off almost every wound.

I get where you're coming from, but what's REALLY unfun is buying and painting an army because it's supposed to be tanky and that's the playstyle you want to lean into and then finding that your stuff still gets deleted in a single combat phase and not having the tools to put out that kind of damage yourself.

Edited by Dreadmund
phrasing
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I think healing abilities in the hero phase are hard to point because of the double turn mechanic which makes them  less reliable than DPR units like Hagnar wyches or hearthguard bezerkers or FEC chalice endless spell that heals or block wounds every combat

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On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:46 AM, Kasper said:

Hearthguard Berzerkers are pretty close to tanks. It is an example of a unit that I personally don't find enjoyable. It causes tons of issues in casual play and in general it is just not really fun to face against.

I think the real issue with HGB is that they are also a top tier damage dealer too and have access to attacking at the start of the combat phase.

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On 10/8/2019 at 5:53 AM, Kasper said:

I think it is significantly more fun for people to play where both players throw dice and models from both armies die, rather than one army shruging off almost every wound.

Its 7th edition 40k all over again with some units. Toss heaps and heaps of dice for nothing to happen. 

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1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Its 7th edition 40k all over again with some units. Toss heaps and heaps of dice for nothing to happen. 

Yes but isn't that what the designers are creating for us in the first place?  Its a dice game after all.  

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3 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yes but isn't that what the designers are creating for us in the first place?  Its a dice game after all.  

It’s a negative play experience when events or consequences of throwing dice results in nothing, in my opinion. 

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