AoS 2 Cities of Sigmar Discussion: Hallowheart

[mmimzie]

39 minutes ago, KK9T said:

I'm thinking about this for a 1000pt list. Thoughts on which spells to give to the Sisters? Perhaps there are better choices for endless spells as well.

Also friend i'll take a look at your list tonight. my favorite mage is currently the battle mage on bale wind from azyr with roaming wild fire. He is a realm power house. HE's cheap throwing out 4 mortal wounds turn 1, and turn 2 he can mix in arcane bolt  and with bonue to cast doing maybe d3 mortal on  his bolt. Thats not including the splash damage to other units. Every turn he;s up he's killing your average hero.

[stratigo]

11 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Well so i wouldn't call it power creap because beside slannesh nothing else is really over preforming and stuff like stormcast eternals are still hanging out in top tables. 

As you and i have said Hallow heart isn't even broken due to spells it has access too, the rise of shooting, and the lack of a big punchy unit that is hallow heart specific. If you ask me Hallow heart is in line with the current state of the game. Sure it has super powerful wizards, but the counter to wizards has never been trying to unbind all thier spells, it's always been kill the wizard.  Thats what made nagash good was that nagash was soooooo hard to kill and had powerful spell. The +3 to cast just made his spell more reliable. 

Other armies are also over performing. Slaanesh is the best, but something like skaven is also sitting on like a 63 percent winrate at major events IIRC

[NinthMusketeer]

@KK9T, I think you have a really good design with that list. Obviously you are leaving yourself vulnerable in melee but with the benefit of good shooting and superb magic. I think you'll do well with it.

[NinthMusketeer]

2 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Other armies are also over performing. Slaanesh is the best, but something like skaven is also sitting on like a 63 percent winrate at major events IIRC

Plenty of newer armies are not over performing; Nighthaunt and Gloomspite come to mind, while older armies like LoN and until recently DoK do extremely well. The power creep is basically that armies with 1st edition or no battletomes do poorly.

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Plenty of newer armies are not over performing; Nighthaunt and Gloomspite come to mind, while older armies like LoN and until recently DoK do extremely well. The power creep is basically that armies with 1st edition or no battletomes do poorly.

XD Yes not all new armies are better than old armies, but no old armies are better than the good new armies. except maybe tzeentch. Can't keep tzeentch down. 

 

GW just doesn't seem to care as much about balancing AoS as it does for say, 40k. There are a number of armies that are clearly much better than anything else in the game, and difficult to play not leaning into making them overwhelming. 

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

 

GW just doesn't seem to care as much about balancing AoS as it does for say, 40k.

I think it's down to the design philosophy of AoS and GW keep changing their mind on what AoS is suppose to be.

It's easier to "balance" a game that has stayed relatively the same (in a loose term). While there have been some more radical changes like vehicles, someone who played 4th edition can somewhat easily figure out 8th edition (minus the detachment CP system which can get crazy)

So GW has been "balancing" 40k for the past 15 or so years since they started to standardize 3rd edition as the "definitive" start of modern 40k. And remember they have been plenty of times where the rules gone off the rails (wasn't 7th edition almost an Emergency 6.5 edition?). But in the end of the day 40k is still a continuous ruleset where concepts like MEQs, TEQS, GEQs, and etc have been firmly established.

 

Meanwhile AoS is like 3-4 years old, completely different system from WFB, and they have flipped on what they wanted the game to be. From "everyone's a micro faction" to "people like having big  WFB style army choice".

Remember AoS originally shipped WITHOUT point costs. Sure was a fun time to talk about AoS back then....

I'd honestly think AoS 3rd edition might be the start of them hammering things all out.

Edited October 13, 2019 by kenshin620

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

Yes not all new armies are better than old armies, but no old armies are better than the good new armies. except maybe tzeentch. Can't keep tzeentch down. 

Old army seems abit arbitary?? 

Deepkin still do well. LoN are still pretty alright. Nurgle top tenned twice last month at decent sized events i believe.tzneetch as you say.  Seraphon appear in top tens every other month i believe?

I'm just trying to think what is struggling that is old still out side of bcr anand ko. 

 

Aos has the most varied top 5 tables of any of the wargames i follow.

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Old army seems abit arbitary?? 

Deepkin still do well. LoN are still pretty alright. Nurgle top tenned twice last month at decent sized events i believe.tzneetch as you say.  Seraphon appear in top tens every other month i believe?

I'm just trying to think what is struggling that is old still out side of bcr anand ko. 

 

Aos has the most varied top 5 tables of any of the wargames i follow.

I mean, I suppose old is a bit of a hollow distinction now considering the last old codexes are like ko, Tzeentch, and seraphon. 

[mmimzie]

@Gwendar I think if they did nerf the command ability i'd take the lord arcanum on mount Either dracoline or gyrph charger instead of the knight incantor i am taking now. Prime electrics would be quite alright, the gyrph charger one can self heal, and it still gets look out sir  but has 7 wounds. 

 

@stratigo yeah i just never like the power creep arguement, atleast with current GW. The most intense moment we've had recently has been slannesh , skaven, flesh eater courts when they dropped pre general hand book, but i think that got squished quite quick and shows where GW stands on that. I think where they are weak is bringing armies back from the dead like KO and BCR.

@KK9T I think you miss abit of a wall to keep your units safe, but i guess you could use sisters of the thorne as your protective models keep your inner wizard ball safe from being attacked.  So i'd consider if you want to put the lives of your sisters on the line to keep the rest of your forces safe from any form of alpha strike. 

[Skreech Verminking]

12 hours ago, stratigo said:

GW just doesn't seem to care as much about balancing AoS as it does for say, 40k

Yeah, the last few times I played khorne in that setting.

first turn started with my opponent shooting my army to oblivion.

and on the second turn I had nothing on the table.

and for some reason it is basically what always happens, when I play a game of 40k, against different players and different armies (although I’ve been playing mostly against space marine, Tau, Imps and craftworld eldar)

sounds very balanced to me.

yeah, In total, calling 40k better balanced then aos, is something I would call a myth.

[zilberfrid]

14 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, the last few times I played khorne in that setting.

first turn started with my opponent shooting my army to oblivion.

and on the second turn I had nothing on the table.

and for some reason it is basically what always happens, when I play a game of 40k, against different players and different armies (although I’ve been playing mostly against space marine, Tau, Imps and craftworld eldar)

sounds very balanced to me.

yeah, In total, calling 40k better balanced then aos, is something I would call a myth.

Well, if you're not playing Space Marines in 40k, GW thought you must be a ******, they just fit the rules accordingly.

[Skreech Verminking]

22 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Well, if you're not playing Space Marines in 40k, GW thought you must be a ******, they just fit the rules accordingly.

Well I usually play an army consisting of 99% of Thousand sons (of which 1% are Tzaangors) and a 90% daemon of khorne (and only Khorne) army, with the help of khorne equipped space marines.

well I am not saying the game is bad (which it definitely isn’t), but better balanced then aos isn’t really what I would call it.

it is probably around as good/badly balanced as aos.

 

[Raffonerd]

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

@Gwendar I think if they did nerf the command ability i'd take the lord arcanum on mount Either dracoline or gyrph charger instead of the knight incantor i am taking now. Prime electrics would be quite alright, the gyrph charger one can self heal, and it still gets look out sir  but has 7 wounds. 

 

@stratigo yeah i just never like the power creep arguement, atleast with current GW. The most intense moment we've had recently has been slannesh , skaven, flesh eater courts when they dropped pre general hand book, but i think that got squished quite quick and shows where GW stands on that. I think where they are weak is bringing armies back from the dead like KO and BCR.

@KK9T I think you miss abit of a wall to keep your units safe, but i guess you could use sisters of the thorne as your protective models keep your inner wizard ball safe from being attacked.  So i'd consider if you want to put the lives of your sisters on the line to keep the rest of your forces safe from any form of alpha strike. 

Incantor is better in a non stormcast army. Automatic dispell is crazy strong.

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Incantor is better in a non stormcast army. Automatic dispell is crazy strong.

It's only opg and many will use it to reposition the comet t2. In HH you can just make the Incantor/Arcanum General and give them the +3 dispell which is good enough to be useful throughout the game.

[Raffonerd]

5 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

It's only opg and many will use it to reposition the comet t2. In HH you can just make the Incantor/Arcanum General and give them the +3 dispell which is good enough to be useful throughout the game.

Incantor general can use also the bodyguard and the CP ability of the city. Also good for splitting command ability MWs.

[The Merchant Prince]

On 10/1/2019 at 3:45 PM, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

After thinking on all the previews I feel like HallowHeart works best for my army theme.

I am a modeler and haven’t played a game of AoS but I’d like to build a list that works in game as a way to work towards something to use for play.

The army is what I would imagine as a AoS-ified “Araby”. By this it would use a lot magic and uses elementals and djinn. Ideally they would be from Hysh, but for now the HallowHeart rules work.

Ideally I would like to include some combination of the following.

no idea what I’d use as heroes.

White Fire Retinue - Magi council

Flamespyre Phoenix - Fire elemental/ efreet

Froatheart Phoenix - Ice elemental/ efreet

Sisters of the watch - magic/ elemental bows

Phoenix Guard/ blackguard/ or great swords - 2 handed heavy hitter unit

Need some ideas for which  spear or sword shield type could be used for chaff

I’ve also been working on a Djinn for awhile now, kinda settled he would probably best be represented as a celestant prime. So hoping this center piece model could be squeezed in.

 

The old high elf archers are great for making middle eastern style troops. 

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

3 hours ago, The Merchant Prince said:

The old high elf archers are great for making middle eastern style troops. 

I have a lot from a much older iteration of the project.

I would currently need to find some alternative that’s a better match the scale & style of the direction I would like to take them.

Though I am currently in a weird place of not feeling good about using Hallowheart. 

[mmimzie]

On 10/14/2019 at 6:28 AM, Gwendar said:

It's only opg and many will use it to reposition the comet t2. In HH you can just make the Incantor/Arcanum General and give them the +3 dispell which is good enough to be useful throughout the game.

 

On 10/14/2019 at 6:33 AM, Raffonerd said:

Incantor general can use also the bodyguard and the CP ability of the city. Also good for splitting command ability MWs.

I feel i'd make not the knight incantor my general, so that the wizard dispelling spells can break down 2 of them.  The scroll can't be used on the comet, it's only good for stopping enemy spells. 

I think the knight incantor is chill, but you can get more mortal wounds out of the lard arcanum with prime electrictrid which isn't something to sneeze at. Though he has anti synergy with azyr battle mage as he likes to follow up chain lighting and roaming wild fire with arcane bolt for an average of 6 mortal wounds.  

I think i prefer a none incantor general. I'd like 2 spell unbinds for my famed spell hunter, or atleast a none endless spell flinging general. One who can use both of thier spell slots to constantly unbind endless spells. Letting you react the gemninds, pendulum, comet, or what ever multiple endless spell to get more milage out of them. Also the incantor won't get bonuses to cast if used to activate the CA meaning you have to standard cast out the comet.

 

19 hours ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Though I am currently in a weird place of not feeling good about using Hallowheart. 

What's got you.... Broken Hearted..... friend?? Feeling the options are abit... Hallow??

*cough*

It's a tough build as you have to make sure your getting enough juices for the squeeze on the wizard bump.  Gotta budget for lots of wizards and endless spells while still packing a good melee unit and maybe some ranged units to make  it worth taking the heart. 

Wizards:
Sorc general with agraxi prism (90pts, general+artifact).  As your general she can block CA damage allowing her to be a decent activator with the retinue. She can give her self bonuses to cast by eating a darkling coven model. Meaning if she doesn't catch the CA she's still ready to open a spell portal to support one of your wizards like and incantor/exorcist/cyclone caster/etc.  Lastly, the spell is no slacker. This model banks your a d3 mortal wound single target with a tacked on -1 to hit. 
Support: Great spell portal set up, CA user, -1 to hit, buffs run/charge with darkling coven models
Damage: Single target D3 mortal wounds

Azyr battlemage with balewind vortex (130pts). This one is your go to power house. Turn one throwing out those 24" range chain lightnings and roaming wild fires. The vortex can let you sneak alittle close as well being more like 28" depending on how you deploy. Turn 2+ your also adding in arcane bolt throwing out d3 mortal wounds often than to CA.  Or you can giving him seer wounds so he can heal models from accross the table. 
Support: Long range healer for large models
Damage: possible 3d3 mortal wounds to a single target ~28" range , area 2d3 mortal wounds on 4+. 

Incantor with comet (240 pts). You bring this one for the comet and the once per game unbind to take out key spells. She needs to catch the CA so i don't recommend her being your general.  A good candidate for cyclone as her other spell won't be as usefull most of the time, and she's likely just to try to stay back and out of unbind range with your azyr battlemage. Meaning she can look in the mirror all game. 
support: once per game auto unbind
damage: 36" d3 mortal wounds (if going 2nd potentialy 2d3 with 2nd activation), With mirror caddy has free lot of cyclone.

Hurricanum is weird (220 no wizard, 280 with wizard). It has a nice d6 mortal wounds spell and 3d6 shooting attack. It just has to move up to get into striking distance It does have +1 to hit which can work wonders for many of your shooting options, but doesn't play well with shadow warriors.  It's battle mage is also azyr, but no vortex here. If your going to bring the azyr battle mage you'll have to find another spell from the lore for this model to take. When taking the model know your taking it mostly for the shooting attack as others might be using the mirror. 
support: shooting +1 to hit, +1 to cast battlemage/luminark/itself
Damage: 3d3 mortal wound shooting attack at full health,  d3-d6 mortal wound spell (needs mirror for turn 1 use). 

 

Support battle mages. Hysh and Ghur at the best 2 support battlemages and its all about what you need. Ghur gives you speed which works well for darkshards/blackguard running and shooting, while hysh works great for keeping tanky units alive like pheonix guard, liberators, sequitors, and phoenixs or with the help of a sorc also giving -1 to hit to melee threat can keep squishy units safe (black guard/morrsarr guard).  They like taking ignite weapons and warding brand (mainly for melee) to further aid thier charges. Or they can use an endless spell. With ignax scales they become good CA users.  Hysh can work
Support:  +2 run/charge or -1 to be hit. Nice to also have +1 to wound or 4+ thorn effect. 
Damage: Thorns or endless spell of choice, quick silver swords are a great choice here working well against chaos (15 wounding on 6s is better than d3 mortal wounds)



I think outside of wizards i like:

Shadow warriors 10 as strong suprize damage that doesn't need protection, and can hit a lot of targets, or atleast forces your opponent to manuever is a very different way. I like them as 10s as we aren't going first most times away way so why make big squads. This aren't likely to get buffed when you want them most (the first time they hit the table), they want to be wholly within cover, and you want multiple squads to snatch objectives. They do decent damage and each squad is effectively a celestart balista with a lord ordinator near by. 20 can kill most small characetrs  40 can drop a keeper (assuming you can get them all in cover and in range). 
average dmg for 10: 4.07 vs 4+ save


Darkshard 10-20 nice battle line that can turn on sorceresses giving you access to that the +2 to cast. They can spend CP to move quickly and work well with dark shards. 
average dmg for 10: 3.33 vs 4+ save

 Anointed on Flame Phoenixs can do free early mortal wounds with thier movement thingy. This give your a psuedo spell allowing you to work around units fighting first, but doing mortal before combat starts. The move mortals are tough to accomplish however as it's similar to reducing movement by 6. Its going to realistic be that you'll either do for the free move damage or go into melee.  It's a tanky model that can sort of screen for your army, and you use mostly for the move mortal and possible combat damage. Can be swinging if revived. I don't rate the frost one because i think the main sell is the move over mortal wounds. The melee damage isn't there for these two and the frost one is more about melee -1 to wound and wants other melee untis around to support, but you can only afford to bring so many.  That said frosty is tankier thanks to the aura. 
Average dmg  possible 5 move mortal,  3.85 melee vs 4+ save


Phoenix guard (30 models) these are also tanks and they can hit decently hard. I don't love these personally as they're mainly going to be hitting back. They are relatively slow compared to most meta hammer units that skate up the table quickly and charge. That said wildform can get them into battle  from further than normal. These are higher damage versions of the flame/frost phoenix higher model counts. High max possible damage, but lack attack priority of the flame phoenix, and not as durable as the frost phoenix can be.  These are take at 40 or not at all if you ask me.  Also require a annoited general to be battle line. Gain easy immune to battleshock access.
Average dmg for 30: 18.07 vs 4+ save

Black Guard 30 models: these are fast and squishier phoenix guard. They'll be picking thier fights and hidden between your screen instead of being your screen. Meaning you'll want to invest in a screen to keep these safe.  With possible 2cp help and wild form this can possible move 15" and charge with +3" making them super fast.  WIth  access to +1 to hit if they can manage to keep a sorc near by (tough without thermal rider cloak or the black dragon). While they might also like wild form to help them further.  Benefits are picking your fights and move clear accross the table. Very battleshock vulnerable.
average dmg for 30: 18.07 vs 4+ save 

Allied 6  Morrsarr guard: I point these out because i have and like them a lot. These combine the some of the flame pheonix and black guard into one unit. They start off moving 14" and with wild form can charge with +2 rerolling.  They have a once per game lightning blast pre combat mortal wounds, allowing them to help against attacking first models similar to the pheonix, but they also have more melee bite. The lightning blast can also be used defensively to cut the damage from charging units.  These are my favorite melee unit, but you can only bring one due to ally points.
Average dmg  for 6: 14.96 vs 4+ save, Once per game average dmg 5 mortal wounds

Others:

Pistoliers hit very hard and do it all before combat start.  No run and charge sucks, but they'll beat out shadow warrior and dark shard numbers if they get all thier duck in a row for the charge. Thier movement make them rather ackward for turn 1 charging though, so they won't be in the fight till turn 2. They need a force that will help them with getting around alittle quicker. 

Sisters of the thorn: Good can use the endless spell boat to get into spell range turn 1. I jut haven't found spells worth having them do this. If you have some one else boat them they  could throw a purple sun that will hit all of your opponents army easily, or give an important enemy a penedulum to the face. Along with some other point black spell. 

Wild riders. Actualy quite high damage but they have ackward range that make it tough for them to play like black guard or morrsarr guard who can be early threat, and no cheaty moves that let them fight sooner than they should. Again they do really good damage, it's more the execution like pistoliers. 

Crossbows/sisters of the watch. A great option but they want you to bring a boat or bridge to get them up the table with out "moving" them. They are the most math friendly shooting units and in max units with +1 to hit, maybe rerolls for transmute and other buffs they can be very spooky. They require investment, and they don't hit as hard as melee units. That all said they have a very large threat range and can put out damage outside of the combat phase avoid deepkin turn 2/3 stuff, flesh eater court attack first, slannesh attack first, and skaven death frenzies.  Which has some real value. These should be up in the real consideration bracket, but i don't have my math on hand for them. I do know it's good though.  These, bridge, hurricanum, and buff mages are a list ready to go and do great things just be sure to bring a screen and potentialy the battleshock protection artifact. 

Lord exorcist seems cool?? Spell portal hoting up and doing mortals. i  just don't like the kind of high chance to fail to do any damage at all. In most cases it's like chain lightning but with out the inital hit, and against stormcast it's alot worse. That said he still load up the comet. 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by mmimzie

[Raffonerd]

20 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

 

I feel i'd make not the knight incantor my general, so that the wizard dispelling spells can break down 2 of them.  The scroll can't be used on the comet, it's only good for stopping enemy spells. 

I think the knight incantor is chill, but you can get more mortal wounds out of the lard arcanum with prime electrictrid which isn't something to sneeze at. Though he has anti synergy with azyr battle mage as he likes to follow up chain lighting and roaming wild fire with arcane bolt for an average of 6 mortal wounds.  

I think i prefer a none incantor general. I'd like 2 spell unbinds for my famed spell hunter, or atleast a none endless spell flinging general. One who can use both of thier spell slots to constantly unbind endless spells. Letting you react the gemninds, pendulum, comet, or what ever multiple endless spell to get more milage out of them. Also the incantor won't get bonuses to cast if used to activate the CA meaning you have to standard cast out the comet.

 

What's got you.... Broken Hearted..... friend?? Feeling the options are abit... Hallow??

*cough*

It's a tough build as you have to make sure your getting enough juices for the squeeze on the wizard bump.  Gotta budget for lots of wizards and endless spells while still packing a good melee unit and maybe some ranged units to make  it worth taking the heart. 

Wizards:
Sorc general with agraxi prism (90pts, general+artifact).  As your general she can block CA damage allowing her to be a decent activator with the retinue. She can give her self bonuses to cast by eating a darkling coven model. Meaning if she doesn't catch the CA she's still ready to open a spell portal to support one of your wizards like and incantor/exorcist/cyclone caster/etc.  Lastly, the spell is no slacker. This model banks your a d3 mortal wound single target with a tacked on -1 to hit. 
Support: Great spell portal set up, CA user, -1 to hit, buffs run/charge with darkling coven models
Damage: Single target D3 mortal wounds

Azyr battlemage with balewind vortex (130pts). This one is your go to power house. Turn one throwing out those 24" range chain lightnings and roaming wild fires. The vortex can let you sneak alittle close as well being more like 28" depending on how you deploy. Turn 2+ your also adding in arcane bolt throwing out d3 mortal wounds often than to CA.  Or you can giving him seer wounds so he can heal models from accross the table. 
Support: Long range healer for large models
Damage: possible 3d3 mortal wounds to a single target ~28" range , area 2d3 mortal wounds on 4+. 

Incantor with comet (240 pts). You bring this one for the comet and the once per game unbind to take out key spells. She needs to catch the CA so i don't recommend her being your general.  A good candidate for cyclone as her other spell won't be as usefull most of the time, and she's likely just to try to stay back and out of unbind range with your azyr battlemage. Meaning she can look in the mirror all game. 
support: once per game auto unbind
damage: 30" d3 mortal wounds (if going 2nd potentialy 2d3 with 2nd activation), With mirror caddy has free lot of cyclone.

Hurricanum is weird (220 no wizard, 280 with wizard). It has a nice d6 mortal wounds spell and 3d6 shooting attack. It just has to move up to get into striking distance It does have +1 to hit which can work wonders for many of your shooting options, but doesn't play well with shadow warriors.  It's battle mage is also azyr, but no vortex here. If your going to bring the azyr battle mage you'll have to find another spell from the lore for this model to take. When taking the model know your taking it mostly for the shooting attack as others might be using the mirror. 
support: shooting +1 to hit, +1 to cast battlemage/luminark/itself
Damage: 3d3 mortal wound shooting attack at full health,  d3-d6 mortal wound spell (needs mirror for turn 1 use). 

 

Support battle mages. Hysh and Ghur at the best 2 support battlemages and its all about what you need. Ghur gives you speed which works well for darkshards/blackguard running and shooting, while hysh works great for keeping tanky units alive like pheonix guard, liberators, sequitors, and phoenixs or with the help of a sorc also giving -1 to hit to melee threat can keep squishy units safe (black guard/morrsarr guard).  They like taking ignite weapons and warding brand (mainly for melee) to further aid thier charges. Or they can use an endless spell. With ignax scales they become good CA users.  Hysh can work
Support:  +2 run/charge or -1 to be hit. Nice to also have +1 to wound or 4+ thorn effect. 
Damage: Thorns or endless spell of choice, quick silver swords are a great choice here working well against chaos (15 wounding on 6s is better than d3 mortal wounds)



I think outside of wizards i like:

Shadow warriors 10 as strong suprize damage that doesn't need protection, and can hit a lot of targets, or atleast forces your opponent to manuever is a very different way. I like them as 10s as we aren't going first most times away way so why make big squads. This aren't likely to get buffed when you want them most (the first time they hit the table), they want to be wholly within cover, and you want multiple squads to snatch objectives. They do decent damage and each squad is effectively a celestart balista with a lord ordinator near by. 20 can kill most small characetrs  40 can drop a keeper (assuming you can get them all in cover and in range). 
average dmg for 10: 4.07 vs 4+ save


Darkshard 10-20 nice battle line that can turn on sorceresses giving you access to that the +2 to cast. They can spend CP to move quickly and work well with dark shards. 
average dmg for 10: 3.33 vs 4+ save

 Anointed on Flame Phoenixs can do free early mortal wounds with thier movement thingy. This give your a psuedo spell allowing you to work around units fighting first, but doing mortal before combat starts. The move mortals are tough to accomplish however as it's similar to reducing movement by 6. Its going to realistic be that you'll either do for the free move damage or go into melee.  It's a tanky model that can sort of screen for your army, and you use mostly for the move mortal and possible combat damage. Can be swinging if revived. I don't rate the frost one because i think the main sell is the move over mortal wounds. The melee damage isn't there for these two and the frost one is more about melee -1 to wound and wants other melee untis around to support, but you can only afford to bring so many.  That said frosty is tankier thanks to the aura. 
Average dmg  possible 5 move mortal,  3.85 melee vs 4+ save


Phoenix guard (30 models) these are also tanks and they can hit decently hard. I don't love these personally as they're mainly going to be hitting back. They are relatively slow compared to most meta hammer units that skate up the table quickly and charge. That said wildform can get them into battle  from further than normal. These are higher damage versions of the flame/frost phoenix higher model counts. High max possible damage, but lack attack priority of the flame phoenix, and not as durable as the frost phoenix can be.  These are take at 40 or not at all if you ask me.  Also require a annoited general to be battle line. Gain easy immune to battleshock access.
Average dmg for 30: 18.07 vs 4+ save

Black Guard 30 models: these are fast and squishier phoenix guard. They'll be picking thier fights and hidden between your screen instead of being your screen. Meaning you'll want to invest in a screen to keep these safe.  With possible 2cp help and wild form this can possible move 15" and charge with +3" making them super fast.  WIth  access to +1 to hit if they can manage to keep a sorc near by (tough without thermal rider cloak or the black dragon). While they might also like wild form to help them further.  Benefits are picking your fights and move clear accross the table. Very battleshock vulnerable.
average dmg for 30: 18.07 vs 4+ save 

Allied 6  Morrsarr guard: I point these out because i have and like them a lot. These combine the some of the flame pheonix and black guard into one unit. They start off moving 14" and with wild form can charge with +2 rerolling.  They have a once per game lightning blast pre combat mortal wounds, allowing them to help against attacking first models similar to the pheonix, but they also have more melee bite. The lightning blast can also be used defensively to cut the damage from charging units.  These are my favorite melee unit, but you can only bring one due to ally points.
Average dmg  for 6: 14.96 vs 4+ save, Once per game average dmg 5 mortal wounds

Others:

Pistoliers hit very hard and do it all before combat start.  No run and charge sucks, but they'll beat out shadow warrior and dark shard numbers if they get all thier duck in a row for the charge. Thier movement make them rather ackward for turn 1 charging though, so they won't be in the fight till turn 2. They need a force that will help them with getting around alittle quicker. 

Sisters of the thorn: Good can use the endless spell boat to get into spell range turn 1. I jut haven't found spells worth having them do this. If you have some one else boat them they  could throw a purple sun that will hit all of your opponents army easily, or give an important enemy a penedulum to the face. Along with some other point black spell. 

Wild riders. Actualy quite high damage but they have ackward range that make it tough for them to play like black guard or morrsarr guard who can be early threat, and no cheaty moves that let them fight sooner than they should. Again they do really good damage, it's more the execution like pistoliers. 

Crossbows/sisters of the watch. A great option but they want you to bring a boat or bridge to get them up the table with out "moving" them. They are the most math friendly shooting units and in max units with +1 to hit, maybe rerolls for transmute and other buffs they can be very spooky. They require investment, and they don't hit as hard as melee units. That all said they have a very large threat range and can put out damage outside of the combat phase avoid deepkin turn 2/3 stuff, flesh eater court attack first, slannesh attack first, and skaven death frenzies.  Which has some real value. These should be up in the real consideration bracket, but i don't have my math on hand for them. I do know it's good though.  These, bridge, hurricanum, and buff mages are a list ready to go and do great things just be sure to bring a screen and potentialy the battleshock protection artifact. 

Lord exorcist seems cool?? Spell portal hoting up and doing mortals. i  just don't like the kind of high chance to fail to do any damage at all. In most cases it's like chain lightning but with out the inital hit, and against stormcast it's alot worse. That said he still load up the comet. 

 

Did you played this list against skaven endless spell? That s why incantor is usefull

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Did you played this list against skaven endless spell? That s why incantor is usefull

i've played with skaven endless spells. they are quite good. though the nerf to vortex makes it harder to set up. skaven only needs a few endless spells for a wizard heavy list to work.

[Maturin]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Incantor with comet (240 pts). You bring this one for the comet and the once per game unbind to take out key spells. She needs to catch the CA so i don't recommend her being your general.  A good candidate for cyclone as her other spell won't be as usefull most of the time, and she's likely just to try to stay back and out of unbind range with your azyr battlemage. Meaning she can look in the mirror all game. 

support: once per game auto unbind
damage: 30" d3 mortal wounds (if going 2nd potentialy 2d3 with 2nd activation), With mirror caddy has free lot of cyclone.

Everblaze comet is 36"

[stratigo]

On 10/14/2019 at 1:41 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, the last few times I played khorne in that setting.

first turn started with my opponent shooting my army to oblivion.

and on the second turn I had nothing on the table.

and for some reason it is basically what always happens, when I play a game of 40k, against different players and different armies (although I’ve been playing mostly against space marine, Tau, Imps and craftworld eldar)

sounds very balanced to me.

yeah, In total, calling 40k better balanced then aos, is something I would call a myth.

I mean, or, you know, you might not be as good as your opponents. Right now the win rate of armies in 40k tournaments is far FAR more even then in AoS tournaments. And that is likely as close to proof as you can get

 

but more than that, gw regularly and ruthlessly nerfs lists whose win rates rise too high. Ynnari used to have above 60 percent a win rate. They don’t any more. Castellan leading guard used to, and it doesn’t any more. 
 

I don’t seen the same churn in over performing armies in AoS. Just a new overpowered army appearing that overwhelms the competition. But not by any sort of obvious design, just by carelessness 

[SwampHeart]

*EDIT* Nevermind, discussing why 40Soup is awful isn't relevant to Hallowheart. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by SwampHeart

[stratigo]

6 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

*EDIT* Nevermind, discussing why 40Soup is awful isn't relevant to Hallowheart. 

And probably wrong to boot. 
 

cities of Sigmar is a soup army though. Like legions and like orruks (except more so)

[Skreech Verminking]

18 minutes ago, stratigo said:

mean, or, you know, you might not be as good as your opponents

Depends what you mean with good.

for example I am the best khorne (mono) player in my whole country.😂

Buuuuut, next to being the best Khorne mono player in my area, I am also the only one who plays khorne daemons and mortals In my country😅😅.

Edit: anyways back to Hallowheart, city of sigmar discussion)

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Skreech Verminking