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Still-young

AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

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11 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

This is not true though as the rage is only in effect in the combat phase:

Ahh you are right, I missed that (going to edit my comment now). Yeah I agree that I hate the way rage is "activated" it is completely out of the OBR players control (which is why I changed it up in my suggestion) 

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15 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I also find it a shame nothing influences battleline options in the book, like other books such as KO or Ogors, where either a specific general or subfaction changes battleline options. Ivory host would if nothing else create some different lists if it could make stalkers, immortis and/or morghasts battleline.

Yeah, it would also help to set petrifex apart. Change the +1 save to wound chars of 4+ (as was mentioned earlier), then make Stalkers battleline in PE. This would solidify PE as the "Elite" Subfaction.

Maybe Immortis Guard BL in MP, as the subfaction focuses around heroes, so making the hero shield battleline fits quite well thematically. 

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The latest article about Wrath of the Everchosen is up (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/29/why-you-need-to-read-wrath-of-the-everchosengw-homepage-post-1/) and I saw this mentioned: 

"Wrath of the Everchosen has a lot of great content for every fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as well as rules and campaigns for Death and Chaos armies." 

After seeing the article before this show all the allegiance abilities seemingly being only for Chaos, I was a little miffed. Now I'm quite excited to see if OBR (and of course the other death factions) get some nice shiny stuff too. 

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1 hour ago, Heijoshin said:

The latest article about Wrath of the Everchosen is up (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/29/why-you-need-to-read-wrath-of-the-everchosengw-homepage-post-1/) and I saw this mentioned: 

"Wrath of the Everchosen has a lot of great content for every fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as well as rules and campaigns for Death and Chaos armies." 

After seeing the article before this show all the allegiance abilities seemingly being only for Chaos, I was a little miffed. Now I'm quite excited to see if OBR (and of course the other death factions) get some nice shiny stuff too. 

It is just siege rules for all. There will be nothing or OBR for regular matched play. Every time people ask about anyone but chaos getting rules, there is the usual marketing response with "everyone gets new siege allegiance rules!". That does not bode well, I doubt siege rules will be part of many people regular play.

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5 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

It is just siege rules for all. There will be nothing or OBR for regular matched play. Every time people ask about anyone but chaos getting rules, there is the usual marketing response with "everyone gets new siege allegiance rules!". That does not bode well, I doubt siege rules will be part of many people regular play.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. The way it is worded made me think that the "great content for every fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar" part was the siege rules, and them specifically highlighting death and chaos for the rules etc was because something cool and specific for us was coming. 

Oh well. I mean I guess I will wait to see what the contents is, but as it stands I doubt I will get the book. I understand that OBR has just released, but a part of me did expect them to get something in there, seeing as they are the other major player in the book. Or is that just me? 

Edited by Heijoshin

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6 hours ago, bigmoerk said:

Thats true, but think of the fact, that you habe to pile for the nearest modell, so the 6" are very powerful nearly only at large bases or monsters/behemoths

You can spread out in a line when you charge and use the 6" pile to get everybody in when you fight. I be used 10 deathriders in a unit at LVO and never had an issue getting them all to fight.

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5 hours ago, Heijoshin said:

Ah, thanks for the clarification. The way it is worded made me think that the "great content for every fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar" part was the siege rules, and them specifically highlighting death and chaos for the rules etc was because something cool and specific for us was coming. 

Oh well. I mean I guess I will wait to see what the contents is, but as it stands I doubt I will get the book. I understand that OBR has just released, but a part of me did expect them to get something in there, seeing as they are the other major player in the book. Or is that just me? 

I saw somewhere on their facebook (i'll try and track a screenshot down later, i'm at work) that OBR during the first round of the siege get +1 to their saves.

I'm sure you can imagine the salt that flowed through the comments.

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15 hours ago, Arcian said:

I saw somewhere on their facebook (i'll try and track a screenshot down later, i'm at work) that OBR during the first round of the siege get +1 to their saves.

I'm sure you can imagine the salt that flowed through the comments.

Yup that's their "atacker" siege trait. While strong, I am kinda meh on it. You are just delaying combat by 1 round (because nobody in their right mind will get into combat t1 with 2+ save mortek). 

It will give you a bit of a buffer against T1 shooting, which is really handy, and may be really good depending how the game mode plays (gives you time to move up and set up) 

For me I think I'd have the most fun with SL. Some tasty cav charges with +1 save on first round sounds fun. 

I'm not sure on the other general siege rules though, so will have to wait and see the impact it will have. 

 

FB_IMG_1580307117233.jpg

Edited by NoMaDhOoK
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So when is that sweet sweet Bonereapers wall set being released... They sure have teased it enough... 😅

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So, thinking about other ways to run OBR, I'm thinking about trying a very fast and furious list, based around Stalkers and Death Riders, backed by a core of Mortek

 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Stalliarch Lords

Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Trait: Twisted Challenge
- Artefact: Nadir-bound Mount
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Artefact: Lode of Saturation
- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Battleline
30 x Mortek Guard (390)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Units
6 x Necropolis Stalkers (400)
3 x Immortis Guard (200)

Battalions
Kavalos Lance (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 115
 

 

The two Kavalos are there to get me 4 RDP and push up the board towards the enemy; one will support the Stalkers or Immortis, and the other will accompany either the Mortek or the Deathriders.

The Death Riders role is to either body block the enemy turn one, allowing the Stalkers or Mortek to move into position, or, if going second, running around the enemy in order to help take objectives from enemy backline chaff. The Battalion is more so for the Lode of Saturation, which is a incredibly vital piece of kit for non-petrifex Mortek, but a free charge doesnt hurt, even if our faction rule already covers the other bonus. I do think Deathriders provide a better body block then Mortek, since they are 15 wounds per 180 versus 10 for 130 for Mortek.

And speaking of the Mortek, they will be my sort of grinder; they'll be meeting the enemy head on, capturing mid-board objectives, and giving board presence. They will help with zoning, although Deathriders will help with that. Thanks to Stalliarchs, being able to run them 4+1+d6 with another possible +3 for an average of 8"+d6, plus a charge, they are a incredibly fast and tough horde that can force conflict before an enemy can really react.

For the most part, the Immortis Guard will be my body blockers, alpha-strike deniers, and defensive fighters. They will probably be hanging with the bone shaper, although they could also sit next to the Kavalos turn 1 to make sure they can survive.  When not being ablative wounds, they will act as a back row of heavy weapons, hanging behind the Mortek for a counter charge attack, or in a more offensive role, they will move up with the Boneshaper as a individual unit; using the Lode on them, they'll be a incredibly hard to kill target that'll take a lot of firepower to shift, and if they dont kill a Guard in one go, he'll just be healed up by the Shaper.

Now, the real meat of the list: The Stalkers will be a incredibly deadly and fast flying brick, that can devastate a flank, remove them from play, and then hold that objective. While some may die, since they arent Petrifex, chewing through a whole unit of them will be tricky, and any that do survive will certainly whipe out what they hit. While I won't always use the CA, it'll be a good ace in the hole, or a way to do some tricky movement.

Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, Dracan said:

So Honset Wargamer just updated their stats for everything since winter FAQ 16 Dec... and petrifix ossiarchs didnt break the game... like at all... Not even a single first place...

Well, imagine that 😉

We aren't particularly strong against shooting which is becoming more and more prevalent; 2-4 Stonehorn lists can also be difficult to deal with or mirror matches\high rend...etc. The low body count (that you can't properly string out due to buffs) makes it hard for us to screen out units or hold objectives and we suffer a lot from certain battleplans. They're solid, but that's fine. The current boogeyman is Tzeentch and there's no telling what Seraphon and Lumineth will look like on the table.

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14 hours ago, Undeadly said:

So, thinking about other ways to run OBR, I'm thinking about trying a very fast and furious list, based around Stalkers and Death Riders, backed by a core of Mortek

 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Stalliarch Lords

Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Trait: Twisted Challenge
- Artefact: Nadir-bound Mount
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Artefact: Lode of Saturation
- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Battleline
30 x Mortek Guard (390)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Units
6 x Necropolis Stalkers (400)
3 x Immortis Guard (200)

Battalions
Kavalos Lance (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 115
 

 

The two Kavalos are there to get me 4 RDP and push up the board towards the enemy; one will support the Stalkers or Immortis, and the other will accompany either the Mortek or the Deathriders.

The Death Riders role is to either body block the enemy turn one, allowing the Stalkers or Mortek to move into position, or, if going second, running around the enemy in order to help take objectives from enemy backline chaff. The Battalion is more so for the Lode of Saturation, which is a incredibly vital piece of kit for non-petrifex Mortek, but a free charge doesnt hurt, even if our faction rule already covers the other bonus. I do think Deathriders provide a better body block then Mortek, since they are 15 wounds per 180 versus 10 for 130 for Mortek.

And speaking of the Mortek, they will be my sort of grinder; they'll be meeting the enemy head on, capturing mid-board objectives, and giving board presence. They will help with zoning, although Deathriders will help with that. Thanks to Stalliarchs, being able to run them 4+1+d6 with another possible +3 for an average of 8"+d6, plus a charge, they are a incredibly fast and tough horde that can force conflict before an enemy can really react.

For the most part, the Immortis Guard will be my body blockers, alpha-strike deniers, and defensive fighters. They will probably be hanging with the bone shaper, although they could also sit next to the Kavalos turn 1 to make sure they can survive.  When not being ablative wounds, they will act as a back row of heavy weapons, hanging behind the Mortek for a counter charge attack, or in a more offensive role, they will move up with the Boneshaper as a individual unit; using the Lode on them, they'll be a incredibly hard to kill target that'll take a lot of firepower to shift, and if they dont kill a Guard in one go, he'll just be healed up by the Shaper.

Now, the real meat of the list: The Stalkers will be a incredibly deadly and fast flying brick, that can devastate a flank, remove them from play, and then hold that objective. While some may die, since they arent Petrifex, chewing through a whole unit of them will be tricky, and any that do survive will certainly whipe out what they hit. While I won't always use the CA, it'll be a good ace in the hole, or a way to do some tricky movement.

Thoughts?

I've been wanting to test a very similar list. Mine switches the 3 immortis for a harvester to make my Mortek blob even harder and one liege for a soulmason. If it makes you feel different you dont need to run the battalion in order to get the Lode of Saturation for your boneshaper. If you're running Stalliarch Lords their forced artefact is only given to the first liege to receive an artifact. In my list then I get to run the Lode and the +2 to casting artifact on my soulmason. Really helps for endless spells and soul guide.

And I think Stalliarch is where Stalkers will shine the most because of their command ability. Rend -3 is cool and all, but moving 9"+d6(rerolling)+charging(rerolling) ignoring terrain sounds phenomenal.

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On 2/1/2020 at 7:34 AM, Bryan I Guess said:

Stalliarch Lords their forced artefact is only given to the first liege to receive an artifact.

that's neat, Ive never seen that before

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With Tzeentch on the rise, what are people's thoughts on Null Myriad? Losing the +1 Save and +1 Rend CA is steep, but 5+ / 2+ w/ CA ignore spells seems strong. A lot of Tzeentch's damage is coming from the high rend shooting though, so maybe the extra save is clutch.

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Spoiler

Anyone else a bit disappointed that the bonereapers' first big outing in the lore is going to be jobbing to Archaon?  Not that I'm necessarily surprised or upset, given that the undead in warhammer are a designated villain group who can die over and over without having to wonder why they're still around, it's often our lot to be a punching bag.  Still though, it's kind of a bad foot to start out on for what are seemingly meant to be the poster boys of the entire grand alliance.

EDIT: sorry, this gripe was based on what turns out to have been some rather unsafe assumptions about how this campaign goes down.  Don't mind me.

Edited by Sception
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3 minutes ago, relic456 said:

With Tzeentch on the rise, what are people's thoughts on Null Myriad? Losing the +1 Save and +1 Rend CA is steep, but 5+ / 2+ w/ CA ignore spells seems strong. A lot of Tzeentch's damage is coming from the high rend shooting though, so maybe the extra save is clutch.

The damage is coming from the shooting phase, yeah.  Obviously NM is better against tzeentch than most other factions, but petrifex is still probably the better subfaction choice, and from where I'm sitting that looks like an uphill fight either way.

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3 minutes ago, Sception said:

Anyone else a bit disappointed that the bonereapers' first big outing in the lore is going to be jobbing to Archaon?  Not that I'm necessarily surprised or upset, given that the undead in warhammer are a designated villain group who can die over and over without having to wonder why they're still around, it's often our lot to be a punching bag.  Still though, it's kind of a bad foot to start out on for what are seemingly meant to be the poster boys of the entire grand alliance.

Spoiler

I'm with you on this. I feel like none of Katakros choices reflect the consumate tactician he is ..but it has always been like that with most of GW writing on this type of character. Katakros "the Undefeated" has seen more defeat in his lore since his coming than any other character (even Manfred who is already written as a weakling in many BL and campaign supplements). Don't get me wrong, I don't care if he lose but...then they should have drop the title and stop making some characters (mostly Archaon and Stormcasts) Mary Sue type...

Beside I feel this conclusion for Soul War (maybe there will be a last chapter but since it's introduced as the end goal of Nagash's plan...) suffer from being put into a Chaos book made for Chaos player and won't see them loosing. Which is a shame because all this incredible build-up (meaning 'major events') lead to a poor-man ending: securing the Realm-gate....I don't see why it's important since you can secure it from the other side...which was the case already.... 

As I wrote somewhere, it really feels like "Order vs Chaos and the two other".  What I wanted to see (but I'm partial, I know) without changing the results was Katakros retreating from the Varanspire when he learned Archaon was coming back from visiting Slaanesh. When the Everchosen comes he launched himself in pursuit of the Mortarch which leads to a siege against a Bonereapers Fortress guarding the Realm-gate. Archaon tries and tries but can't hold the siege for long (because Ossiarch are a defensive army). Then he leaves, planning for something else. Katakros is defeated during the siege (I don't care) but ultimately win the battle. Same result : Death can't push much more into the Eight Points and Chaos realise Nagash isn't weak anymore. Basic but, to me, more impactful because right now as Wrath of the Everchosen lore is written, nothing differenciate Ossiarchs from a basic skeleton army. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Sception said:

Anyone else a bit disappointed that the bonereapers' first big outing in the lore is going to be jobbing to Archaon?  Not that I'm necessarily surprised or upset, given that the undead in warhammer are a designated villain group who can die over and over without having to wonder why they're still around, it's often our lot to be a punching bag.  Still though, it's kind of a bad foot to start out on for what are seemingly meant to be the poster boys of the entire grand alliance.

A little, but not much; since AoS 2 is centered almost all around Death's rise to prominence, I doubt the narrative will change until we hit AoS 3.

As for the book, it is Archaeon for Christ sake; he goes toe to toe with Sigmar and Nagash. Even with Olynder and Katakros tag teaming them, I doubted that either would actually take the Varanspire proper.  But what is important is that not only is the Shyish realmgate are no longer in Chaos Hands, but it is also has a massive death fortress guarding. Death now has a physical presence in the Eight points, something no other faction has.

And Katakros whole schtick is generalship; he is not a duelist, and does not enter combat unless necessary. Thus, if he dies, no big whoop. He is Undefeated because he is Undefeated in war, not battle; so long as he can come back, and continue to strategize and plan, the war isnt over, and thus, he remains undefeated. The whole book has the forces of Death use this as a probing strike; Katakros wants to see what Archaeon will do when faced with an all out attack.  And when Archaeon is forced to come back, and beats him battle, Katakros considers that campaign does, revives in a throne room filled with body doubles, and starts planning for his next assault. 

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EDIT: my grumbly post was based on what I thought were pretty safe assumptions.  It is called "wrath of the everchosen", archaon is prominantly featured on the cover, the book has tons of rules for chaos subfactions and none for death, and the entire premise is Death assaulting the 8 points, the central stronghold of Chaos in the greater AoS setting.  From the overall structure of the lore it seemed safe to assume Death would win some while Archaon was away, then get their teeth kicked in when archaon showed up in order to both reinforce the everchosen's role as the primary setting antagonist and maintain the status quo.

Without getting into spoilers...  I've since been informed that isn't *exactly* how things go down.

WITH getting into spoilers...

Spoiler

Broad strokes are pretty similar to what I assumed - Katakros invades while Archaon's away, makes some significant gains, and then Archaon returns, meets Katakros's army in the field, and beats him in one on one combat.  Katakros revives largely untroubled, stating that the fight was just to take notes on Archaon's command and combat style.  Standard 'the undead can lose while still pretending it wasn't a loss' stuff.

BUT, what I did not expect is that in Katakros's initial assault the Bonereapers are able to take and fortify the allpoints side of the Death Gate, and those fortifications have NOT been overwhelmed by the end of the story.  I had assumed that death would be forced back into Shyish in order to maintain the status quo and not have Archaon's big campaign book end with a loss for chaos, but instead we have a situation where the 8 points has effectively been reduced to the 7 points.  Of course, the seige of those fortifications is continuous, but despite all the chaos framing surrounding this campaign the outcome of it can really only be described as a victory for Death and loss for Chaos, even if those results are incomplete and contested.  Chaos went from Slaanesh being imprisoned but Archaon knowing where they are and controlling the entire 8-points to Slaanesh /still/ being imprisoned but now in a new location who knows where and control of the Shyish gate being lost to Death.

So yeah, color me pleasantly surprised.  Maybe not enough to buy the actual campaign book given how little death crunch is in there (Unlikely as it is, I was kind of hoping for at least a 'Legion of the Necropolis' ruleset similar to the 'Legion of Grief' rules Olynder got in Forbidden power), but still.

 

Edited by Sception
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I wrote some pretty memey thoughts about the Wrath book in the Katakros VS Archaon who would win? thread, and I did want to write some more serious thoughts at some point, so I guess I will write them here. 

Spoiler

 

I guess what gripes me the most is that it has this "everyone wins" aspect to it, which I think damages both Katakros as a character, and the believability in GW's story telling. I am more accepting of this story as a whole than I first was. Yet solely focused on Katakros all I can really feel is a sense of bewilderment. Why write his lore as though upon getting this new body he's now at his peak and prime and thus "undefeated", only to immediately get defeated? Are they trying to say, like @Undeadly said, that he's undefeated in the war, not only as "himself" as a fighter. That I can get behind.  Then why not make that a bit clearer?  Why not take that aspect and make it more of a Katakros the "will do whatever the hell it takes to win". Even if it means sacrificing himself and using his "undeath" to his advantage just to get a small edge over his enemies. Again, THAT I can get behind. If it's because well "technically" he gets a new body each time, and his soul wasn't "defeated", so he can always say that with each reincarnation, he is undefeated. If that's the case, then all I can say is "that's cheap writing. You should be embarrassed". To both of these points though: when I beat Dark Souls for the first time, I'm sure my character didn't go "Ha, I am undefeated! Take that Gwin!" he probably thought "Good god, what the hell, that was so damn exhausting. I feel broken". 

Basically, in summary: I can't help but feel that there is this sense of ludonarrative dissonance (I know LND is more for video games, but you get what I mean) between what GW are telling me about the character as a model on the table, his rules, and his introductory background compared to how he ends up being written for the story. It feels like they bent the characters identity to fit whatever they need it to do, without really thinking about if it makes sense to do so. Personally, I think that damages Kata as a character. If you want him to be undefeated full stop-  make him be undefeated. If you want him to be only undefeated as a general in a war, then make that clear and remove any doubt. Come at it from another angle. 

This seems to be an issue with GW as a whole. Every leader of every army is the best at what they do. Their army is the strongest, has the most fearless warriors and can destroy all enemies. It's one of those cases where if everyone is the best, no one is the best, yet at some point one has to lose (but yet also win, because we did say your army is also the strongest!). This is basically what it feels like they did here (and they do this with all releases, because marketing): 

GW with the OBR book: Here's Katakros! He's ready to go and not be defeated, he's such a mad lad! Look how arrogant he is! That's because he's so good!" 
What GW are actually saying: Please buy this army because if you do, you too will be undefeated. 

GW with the S2D book: Archaon is back baby! He's 800 points now! He's so strong. He will MESS YOU UP if you look at him the wrong way! 
What GW are actually saying: Please buy this book, because we made Archaon really strong and now you can live out the power fantasy that you wish you had in real life....please don't cry. 

GW with the WotE book: Katakros is going to kick down Archaon's door! Told you he was a mad lad! But Archaon isn't going to take this lying down! Tune in to next week's WWE World Championship Title match! 
What GW are actually saying: Please buy this book. We specifically teased that both leaders are going to fight one on one to entice you to buy it. We totally didn't employ a marketing psychologist. Promise. 

GW in the WotE book: Who'd have guessed?!?!?!?! Both Archaon AND Katakros won in their own way! 
What GW are actually saying: Did you really think we would allow Archaon to fail in any significant way? Oh my sweet summer child. And I know we said Katakros is undefeated, so that's why him dying was his plan all along, so he could learn Archaon's secret Karate techniques and use them to his advantage. We're obviously not going to tell you what Katakros learned either. That would be silly,  and you'll have to buy the next book to find that out. Oh and Kata also played a lot of Destiny 2, and basically stole that fat guy's idea from the Levithan raid by having all these clones of himself. See, he's totally undefeated because *insert your own personal reason to try and justify the fact GW would release a character, say he's an undefeated badass, only to be immediately defeated like 2 months later*!!!!!

(Ok, that was pretty memeish. I just couldn't help myself). 

Coming back to this point of "everyone being the best", we all knew Archaon was going to win this duel.  I just wish someone, ANYONE, would do SOMETHING to hurt or injure Archaon. Just anything. My wish was that as Katakros goes down he shanks him with a blade or something that begins to corrupt, poison or whatever Archaon so he is injured. But no, he loses a bit of land and is probably back to having a massive temper tantrum. It just feels like Archaon has gone on for SO long without any real danger or injury to him. It's just not believable at this point. He reminds me of the dwarves in the Hobbit movies. No matter what happens, they live. They get smashed into a cliff face by a giant stone monster? Live. Are attacked by Orcs whilst in barrels with no real means to defend themselves? Live. Get attacked by a giant massive dragon that's breathing fire all around them? Live. How can I believe these characters are in mortal danger, if you never show their mortality? The only one that we know that has a hope of stopping Archaon is Sigmar. Yet GW purposefully wrote Sigmar to sit around doing nothing (no sorry, he's busy in his garage working on his DIY project). I did always wonder why Sigmar is so powerful, has the chance to help, but just sits around scratching his ******. It's because if he actually did something, they might have to write something of consequence. 

To top this all off, I know 100% I am thinking too hard and caring too much about this. Maybe I was expecting too much from it and just need to chillax. 

 

 

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On 1/31/2020 at 8:21 PM, Dracan said:

So Honset Wargamer just updated their stats for everything since winter FAQ 16 Dec... and petrifix ossiarchs didnt break the game... like at all... Not even a single first place...

 


Not really surprised really. I get that people have this fear of new books being strong, and I get that the first reaction to PE's "everyone gets +1 save" is a fearful anticipation. But surprising and wide reaching strengths doesn't automatically equate to unbalanced, OPness or even being that good (Nighthaunt all fly, but people aren't complaining about that or anything). PE is undoubtedly strong, but its very honest. It's literally just a buff to offense and defense in the most basic part of the game - The actual fighting. 

Here's what I wrote in another forum: 

I understand that petrifex is strong. It is. Its also very honest. A person drops a PE list and you know exactly what it does and what it can't do. The issue people have is that it places a lot of the countering on the opponent having to include shooting and / or mortal wounds and / or having to play the objective game and guess what? Some people often times just don't like being told they have to change something or think beyond their usual strategy. I see a lot of mild hypocrisy in the fact that a lot of people hate PE because their faction struggles more against PE than others, yet don't care when PE have struggles to shooting and or mortal wounds armies (i.e. Tzeentch, hallowheart etc).

And if you're talking about only one sub-faction being played. What about all but one person taking Hermdar for Fyreslayers? (Edit: This is in regards to Cancon and someone saying "but people only took PE, thats how you know its broken!") I find Fyreslayers an apt comparison to OBR. They're sitting at 66% win rate overall (OBR AKA Petrifex at 58%), did exceptionally well at all tournaments recently, have a lot of similarities to OBR and PE, yet no one bats an eye when 20 4+ / 4++ 2 wound hearthguard berserkers are fighting first and them immediately fight again. Oh and they have movement shenanigans. I get that the answer is "they need heroes and wholly within buffs!" but my answer to that is "and?". Thats the price you pay for all those benefits. Yet PE have 2 "simple" (I mean uncomplex) buffs (the Rend buff does have the Hekatos requirements), which yes affects everyone, but also they have no fight first, no fight last, no fight again and no movement shenanigans. The most trolltastic you can get is Nagash with Protection of Nagash and he teleports himself. They are focused on the basic aspect of the combat phase: defense and offense (with the rend). Thats it. And the price of those isn't as high as say Fyreslayers, because they arent doing as many different things.

Edit: To add to this "basic aspect of the combat phase". Sure the 3+ helps with shooting too. Also the 6+ FNP and the shieldwall forces you at the widest to be in a 12" bubble, because if you string mortek out, you are not getting these abilities. So your choices are to stick to 12" and leave yourself open to movement and leave your heroes more exposed, or string them out, lose the benefits and basically become the games most expensive screening unit and basically wasting their potential. The same is said for the rend buff. So You're choices are: Blob unit that your opponent can move around / play with, or an expensive screen that really is wasted in this role.

Edited by Heijoshin
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Honestly,.I think it's weird that you all think Katakros' title of "Undefeated" is literal. He lost to a Ghorghon as a mortal, he lost to Nagash as a spirit, and then lost against Sigmar in.his current state. He's never been undefeated in battle, and it's more of a metaphor; he's "Undefeated" because he never sees it that way.

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When I first got the OBR book I read that and was like.. what?

He's been defeated like three times on the previous page.

Sorry, Katacross. Dying, being killed and imprisoned and then killed and reforged killed.. etc.. and totally counts as being defeated.

I guess he ascribes to the Roman ideal.. you're not defeated if you suffer losses and keep sending in armies. 

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The ideology of Katacross as a strategist and the army seems to mirror the whole lose the battle win the war concept in history that generals had but in a more literal sense given the undead / resurrecting bodies thing.  It makes OBR interesting but I hope they don't keep milking it.

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