How bad is Archaon, really?

[PivotalCar]

Archaon, everyone's favorite warlord. But for some reason nobody ever seems to use him anywhere. I am going to use the power of numbers to undeniably prove this guy is hot garbage. 

For the sake of simplicity, I'm not going to use any buffs or abilities from chaos heroes that could affect Archaon. Yes, there are some good ones, khorne buffs, fate die, yummy nurgle things, but these buffs don't matter too much for such a large model, and I won't use any buffs for units I compare Archaon too. 

First weapons. 

Slayer of kings, 4, 2+, 3+, -1, 3

4.44 damage against a 4+ save (I'll be using 4+ save for all of the weapons). The sword also has an instakill ability, but this only goes of 8.6 percent of the time, which is laughable. Korghos Khul, a 180 point hero, has an instakill that goes off 34.6 percent of the time against a 4+ save. Sure Archaon's isn't reliant on the other guy's save, but to have a lower chance than Archaon, Khul would need to be attacking someone with a save of 1+. Also Archaon's instakill is only against heroes and monsters. Very meh.

Claws, 2, 2+, 3+, -1, D6

2.59 damage, rather swingy. But in general, few attacks are bad in aos. overall, not that great. 

Tail, 2D6, 4+, 3+, -, 1

1.17 damage, very swingy, but it does have a 3" range. But, like a Razordons does this at a 12" range for 40 points. And they aren't even that good.

Three heads, 6, 4+, 3+, -1, 1

1.13 damage. I, mean it's got a 3" range, so you can kill a grot from your third line.

Archaon does a grand total of, drum roll please, 9.5 damage per turn on average, against a 4+ save. Sure, that is a unit of liberators, but you payed 660 points and killed 100 of theirs. Let's take a quick second to look through things that do more damage than poor Archaon. 

I started looking through the warscrolls, and I literally couldn't find combination of units that costs 660 points that does less than 9.5 damage per combat round. I'm not even kidding. Granted, I didn't look too hard, but still. Tell me if you can find anyone who does less damage. 

 

Abilities!

Flying

sure, flying is fine

Eye of Sheerian

Whenever an enemy scores a hit with a result of a die you roll in your hero phase, they have to reroll it. Ehh. Assuming the other guy hits on a 4+, you have a 1/2 chance of this ability being useless. An then if you do get a 4,5, or 6. You'll only make them reroll a third of their hits. Say or old pall Archaon is being attacked by 40 Clanrats. To make it fair, we'll call this 30 attacks. Hitting on a 4+ because of the Skaven ability. 15 of those 30 will hit. Since your ability only goes off half the time, 2.5 of those 15 will be rerolled. 1.25 of those will miss. 15 hits vs 13.75 hits. that's 2.5 damage to Archaon vs 2.3 damage to Archaon. Sure, it is damage prevention. But with all of the feel no pains in the meta right now, this ability is worthless. 

Armor of Morkar

On a save of 6, the other guy takes a mortal wound. Funnily enough, this might deal more damage to the enemy than your actual attacks, depending on how many guys attack. Sure it's good, but 100 point bloodwarriors have it, and Archaon is 660 points. 

Chaos Runeshield

We know what this does. Decent, but won't help when most of the other guy's forces are gunning for you.

Crown of Domination

+2 or -2 to battleshock for guys within 10". With all the battleshock negation this ability is just not helpful. Also it gets counterd by 1 cp. 

Heads of Dorgar. If at least one guy was slain by the three head attacks you can choose one. (haha imagine killing someone with archaon).

nurgle head-D3 mortals against a guy 7" away. Not bad, D3 mortal wounds is fine

Khorne head- D3 heals. won't stop him from dying. Also big models have better heals built in. Also, methinks the khorne and nurgle abilites should really be swapped.

Tzeentch- learn a spell from a dead wizward. You won't be killing big wizwards with the head attacks, and if the enemy let a small wizwards get next to Archaon they are kind of bad at the game.

Yeah, these abilities are bad and they won't go off very often.

Everchosen

On a 4+ ignore the effects of a spell. IDK if this affects endless spells, but still the other guy will just not cast things at Archaon and instead just kill you with his troops. Maybe decent against a very very spell heavy army. Prob still not that good. 

Command ability

All other chaos heroes in your army can use a command ability. terrible. How many other heroes are you running? Archaon is already a third of your points and if you run more heroes you'll have space for like 2 chaos spawn. And no, this doesn't save you 5 command points. You get to use up to 5 command abilities, but you don't have any command points left over to do things. This sounds good on paper, but command abilities aren't that relevant, and I can;t think of a use for this that isn't better than some other thing for 660 points. 

Archaon is also a wizward with no unique spells. 

So none of the abilites are too bad. But none of them is worth Archaon's cost. Look at a king on terrogiest. He kills thinks when he dies, can summon 200 points of dudes, and heals D3 points per turn, and has a good spell, and can take artifacts, and is 200 points cheaper. Archaon just dosen't add up. 

But wait, he has 20 wounds with a 3+ save and a 5+ against mortals! that's good!

Let's make a song!

30 bloodletters with +1 attack can kill

Archaon

A gristlogore Terrgoiest can kill

Archaon

2 more more warp lighting cannons can kill

Archaon

30 buffed witch aelves can kill

Archaon  Anything

12 charging Morsarr guard can kill

Archaon

With a bit of luck 4 ballista can kill 

Archaon

Wow this man is trash!

 

*post script* I don't hate Archaon. I just think he needs a rework to make the warscroll match the lore. cheers!

[Xasz]

The real problem is that he doesn't (at least realistically) has is own army/book and doesn't fit in a whole lot of other armies (Khorne being the best host currently).

The somewhat outdated warscroll comes after that (to be honest, the only thing being outdated is his command ability, which is sadly a big deal for some setups).

Furthermore, pressing bigger models and special characters in the usual metrics is often not really productive. Usually these models are taken with the goal of combining them with allegiance abilities, spells or other sources outside their own warscroll.

A common and rather faulty mindset that is often encountered with novice players or online boards, is the expectation that those models have to be equally or exponentially more powerful/killy than a similarly priced set of models. Ergo, they have this false expectation that fielding Nagash, Archaon and the like always leads to them automatically having the advantage because it's a 500+ model and they "should" kill everything they touch.

That being said, metrics are always important but there is more to the game than that (especially when it comes to difficult to evaluate stuff like named characters, allegiance abilities and so on)

[Grimrock]

I've used Archaon a fair bit, and one thing you absolutely can't do is ignore buffs on him. They're the whole reason for him to be 660 points... Having access to all 4 chaos god keywords as well as mortal and daemon opens him up for every possible buff in those factions and allows you to do some crazy things. If you can't put buffs on him, then I absolutely agree that there's no reason to take him. Which, ironically, makes him totally useless in everchosen.

The baseline quality of his stats means he combines with buffs extremely well in ways that a basic unit or behemoth just can't. 4 attack profiles, lots of multiple damage, lots of wounds and a good base save mean any buff is huge. Khorne does it best and if you're building your army for him then you can make him an absolute wrecking ball.

The slayer of kings can absolutely be worth building for as well. In a regular game the ability is essentially useless, but anything that can make it proc can turn it into a game winning ability. In Tzeentch I've won because of a spell buff and destiny dice that deleted multiple behemoths. 

[Kurrilino]

Yeah, you guys  are totally underrating Archaon here and most people don't know how to play him anyways.

 

His CP ability is not useless it is indeed what you are paying 660 points for.

I give you a couple of examples. Lord of Blights and Harbinger always fight for command points, now you use both of them.

30 Nurgle warriors -1 to hit melee, -2 hit shooting, 5+ ward/5+ward. Having now Lord of Blights AND Harbinger let's you take the Witherstave to make the opponents reroll 6's to hit and magic Archi putting Blades of Putr. on them plus a juicy Geminids which make them -2 hit in comabt and -3 shooting.

He can also buffs a group of 3 Fatemaster on Disks. Those little guys now let opponents reroll 4,5,6 to hit if you choose so while having a 2+ save in combat.

You could also buff Fatesworn several Tzeench  Gorebeast chariots groups with Lord on Demonic Mounts abilities to make sure  you get 18 wounds with -1 per charge.

 

There are really countless options that makes him 660 points. You guys just have to learn to play something else than cookiecutter list from the net.

I usually run 30 warriors with Blightlord and Harbinger in Plaqutouched Battalion. I mix in some 30 PLaquebearers and the mortals i need to make it happen usually 3x5 Blightlords and Gutrot spume and Spawns to make it as cheap as possible. Magic is always the Geminids and now the new Shards.

 

This makes my 30 Warriors -4 to hit in combat and -5 to shooting while the opponent has to reroll all 6's to hit and they have 2x 5+ wardsaves.

Same for the 30 Plaquebearers and if you play the 3 Fatemasters  you have a unremovable roadblock doesn't matter how big the horde is you are blocking

 

I played a Khorne player when the new book came out and he just gave up in round 2. I also played in a tournament with 6 games and i lost 1 Chaos warrior over the whole tournament with winning all games.

 

So there is a use for Archaon it's just about using him right and he will be deadly. I am not surprised he stayed where he is point whise

 

 

 

[Xasz]

30 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

His CP ability is not useless it is indeed what you are paying 660 points for.

Not for every setup and considering the latest shift in design philosophy, command abilities that are activated in the hero phase are getting rare. Sooner or later his ability will need an FAQ or rework.

Otherwise I agree with you, Archaon is definitely not a bad choice and I love him in Khorne currently. There is just so much stuff he can take advantage of... Reapers of Vengeance, Bloodsecrator, Bloodstoker, allegiance abilities...

[whispersofblood]

This is what I would define as using math to reach a pitifully low level of analysis, to trick yourself into think you did a deep dive.

In Khorne Archaon can get, with no interactivity  from your opponent

+2 Attacks to each profile (one being a cmd ability)

+1 to hit

rr failed hits

+3 to run and charge rolls

rr wounds (not failed wounds so you can fish for 6s)

+1 save

Run and charge

He also has the daemon keyword so he can use:

Leave None Alive (to fight twice like a GKoTG), also as skullreapers a failed BS test results in 2+d3 models fleeing combat

Rejoice in Slaughter (6" pile in, and activation)

RR charge rolls

RR hit rolls

Blood tithe (which can be used in either players hero phase)

out of phase movement (hugely flexible)

fight in the hero phase

That is a huge variety of buffs to his warscroll

[Infernalslayer]

I would personally love if huge named characters like Archaon had a rule in their warscroll that their printed stats cannot be modified by other power/abilities. That way, as a designer, you could keep the warscroll very powerful on its own without worrying that it could be broken by certain interactions with other rules, and cost it accordingly. No -1 or +1 to attacks and rolls, just a very powerful warscroll that you would take to supplement your army.

Sure, that would make it static and lose the fun of thinking up combos with certain miniatures and armies, but would also be more lore friendly for such huge demigod-level characters. Why would Archaon get whipped by a bloodstoker to fight harder, or be affected by the stench of mere fellwater troggoths?

Ofcourse, that concept sounds ideal in my head but could be flawed as well, as most things warhammer 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Infernalslayer

[Charleston]

While all big Centerpiece-Models are supposed to Work with an Single Army and have Synnergiez that are built around it, Archaon is the Jack of All Trades to be used with any other Army, despite of Slaves to Darkness, because, well, StD somehow got into the stop where GW stopped even caring. He is not bad in any god-alligience but then there is the issue of how to field his Varanguard as points for Allied units are limited.

He is a Wizzard, has some nice offensive and defensive capabilities, a Commando Ability that I honestly wonder no one has abused so far and is fast and durable. Also he can receive every buff from the 4 Gods Alligiences, althrough I totaly agree with @Infernalslayer that is not always fluffy. But hej, Games logic!

On the downside, he do not have any buffs to beeing a wizzard and even lacks a signature spell. He doesn´t hit much harder than a 300pts Model and in "Age of Goodstuff" we are currently playing there are way too many threads to a model like him as already mentioned.

I for my own would reduce him to 400-500pts. He is a good alrounder, but it currently feels like we pay an extra for the keywords. It is neat to be able to field him alongside Nurgle, Tzeentch, Khorne or Slaanesh, but most of the time he can profil only from one of the Gods Alligiences.

 

[Luke1705]

Get 3 command abilities a turn out of him and you will not find him to be useless at all.  His combat does leave something to be desired, but almost all of the gods have a way of buffing his slayer of kings to proc on a 5, and if you want to cast the sorcerer power to let him re-roll hits and wounds of 1, hitting on a 2+ re-rolling 1's and wounding on a 2+ re-rolling ones will feel a LOT better

[Forrix]

I think its because he's an expensive model (real $$) that isn't part of a modern battletome of his own that while fine for fun games is probably a 3-2 at best in tournaments. When I use him I find his huge base to make movement a pain even with tons of movement buffs, i.e. you'll never be assassinating Nagash turn 1 or 2 unless your opponent completely fails to screen. He's also extremely fragile for a 660 point model without buffs (I've both killed and lost him turn 1).

As for your math stuff- Archaon is a buff sponge, he is going to suck hard without any. My most memorable Archaon moment is when he took a charge of 15 evocators to the face then killed them all on his return attacks. Harbinger of Decay, GUO, and Sorcerer Lord are my go to for him in Nurgle (+1 attack, 5+ save after save, and reroll 1s to hit, wound, and save). Cycle of Corruption gives him +1 to wound too (nice for Slayer of kings triggers too).

[Enwolved]

On 6/22/2019 at 7:19 PM, Kurrilino said:

30 Nurgle warriors -1 to hit melee, -2 hit shooting, 5+ ward/5+ward. Having now Lord of Blights AND Harbinger let's you take the Witherstave to make the opponents reroll 6's to hit and magic Archi putting Blades of Putr. on them plus a juicy Geminids which make them -2 hit in comabt and -3 shooting.

So Archaon is not an Rotbringer so he cant take the spell "Blades Of Putrifcation", right?

On 6/22/2019 at 7:19 PM, Kurrilino said:

He can also buffs a group of 3 Fatemaster on Disks. Those little guys now let opponents reroll 4,5,6 to hit if you choose so while having a 2+ save in combat

Can you explain how this works? Archaon can roll for his Eye and you can at max. reroll that because you rolled the dice of your fatemasters first, or am I wrong?

On 6/22/2019 at 7:19 PM, Kurrilino said:

I usually run 30 warriors with Blightlord and Harbinger in Plaqutouched Battalion. I mix in some 30 PLaquebearers and the mortals i need to make it happen usually 3x5 Blightlords and Gutrot spume and Spawns to make it as cheap as possible. Magic is always the Geminids and now the new Shards.

So you run this as GA Chaos? Because you cant use the Plaguetouched Battalion in Nurgle.
 

Definitely some nice ideas you have there, I will think about building a similar list.

[Enwolved]

On 6/22/2019 at 8:03 PM, Xasz said:

Otherwise I agree with you, Archaon is definitely not a bad choice and I love him in Khorne currently. There is just so much stuff he can take advantage of... Reapers of Vengeance, Bloodsecrator, Bloodstoker, allegiance abilities...

How do you manage to always get him wholly within 8'' for the bloodstoker? I feel like thats extremly unreliable.

[Xasz]

58 minutes ago, Enwolved said:

How do you manage to always get him wholly within 8'' for the bloodstoker? I feel like thats extremly unreliable.

He pretty much stays base to base with Archaon or a Bloodthirster. It's not like you have to be in range the whole game, at some point it doesn't really matter anymore (especially if you alpha-strike for some reason, sooner or later the bloodstoker is a blood tithe point either way). That being said, it's not that difficult to stay in range with normal movement and the stoker running.

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Enwolved said:

So Archaon is not an Rotbringer so he cant take the spell "Blades Of Putrifcation", right?

Yes, he cannot but he is eligible for the other two Nurgle tables.

1 hour ago, Enwolved said:

So you run this as GA Chaos? Because you cant use the Plaguetouched Battalion in Nurgle.

Yes, it's probably a variation of a list that had some popularity last year.

This might be an interesting read for you --> https://aosshorts.com/masterclass-darren-watson-on-archaon/

Keep in mind that this article is over a year old and it's not really played anymore in a competitive environment. Most likely due to not having enough damage output and DoK, FEC just chewing through even -3 or -2 to hit units. That being said, you could surely adapt it and play a really tanky Nurgle list, if that's what you want to do (some lists might be caught off guard hard by this).

Edited June 27, 2019 by Xasz

[Grdaat]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:19 AM, Kurrilino said:

Yeah, you guys  are totally underrating Archaon here and most people don't know how to play him anyways.

His CP ability is not useless it is indeed what you are paying 660 points for.

I give you a couple of examples. Lord of Blights and Harbinger always fight for command points, now you use both of them.

30 Nurgle warriors -1 to hit melee, -2 hit shooting, 5+ ward/5+ward. Having now Lord of Blights AND Harbinger let's you take the Witherstave to make the opponents reroll 6's to hit and magic Archi putting Blades of Putr. on them plus a juicy Geminids which make them -2 hit in comabt and -3 shooting.

He can also buffs a group of 3 Fatemaster on Disks. Those little guys now let opponents reroll 4,5,6 to hit if you choose so while having a 2+ save in combat.

You could also buff Fatesworn several Tzeench  Gorebeast chariots groups with Lord on Demonic Mounts abilities to make sure  you get 18 wounds with -1 per charge.

There are really countless options that makes him 660 points. You guys just have to learn to play something else than cookiecutter list from the net.

I usually run 30 warriors with Blightlord and Harbinger in Plaqutouched Battalion. I mix in some 30 PLaquebearers and the mortals i need to make it happen usually 3x5 Blightlords and Gutrot spume and Spawns to make it as cheap as possible. Magic is always the Geminids and now the new Shards.

This makes my 30 Warriors -4 to hit in combat and -5 to shooting while the opponent has to reroll all 6's to hit and they have 2x 5+ wardsaves.

Same for the 30 Plaquebearers and if you play the 3 Fatemasters  you have a unremovable roadblock doesn't matter how big the horde is you are blocking

I played a Khorne player when the new book came out and he just gave up in round 2. I also played in a tournament with 6 games and i lost 1 Chaos warrior over the whole tournament with winning all games.

So there is a use for Archaon it's just about using him right and he will be deadly. I am not surprised he stayed where he is point whise

I'm a bit late on this, but you can't run Plaguetouched in a Nurgle Allegiance, so how exactly are you getting the Witherstave?

[Praecautus]

I am starting to get really tempted by archaon as part of a Khorne army. With the buffs available to Khorne mortals and Dawkins he looks like he could be an absolute monster, 2+ save rerolling 1, yes please. Obviously a buff sponge, but then all Khorne monsters are

[Kurrilino]

15 hours ago, Grdaat said:

I'm a bit late on this, but you can't run Plaguetouched in a Nurgle Allegiance, so how exactly are you getting the Witherstave?

I just gave examples what else you can do. I am aware that Plaque and witherstave is not possible.

You actually reach the same effect with geminids or the shards but without plaquetouched. 

Glottkin and -2 bravery spell plus -2 bravery items will do the same. 

Both options would replace Plaquetouched and allow you witherstave

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kurrilino

[Grdaat]

18 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

I just gave examples what else you can do. I am aware that Plaque and witherstave is not possible.

You actually reach the same effect with geminids or the shards but without plaquetouched. 

Glottkin and -2 bravery spell plus -2 bravery items will do the same. 

Both options would replace Plaquetouched and allow you witherstave

That's what I thought, I was confused because the way you wrote it made it look like you were using the two together.

[Blisterfeet]

20 hours ago, Praecautus said:

I am starting to get really tempted by archaon as part of a Khorne army. With the buffs available to Khorne mortals and Dawkins he looks like he could be an absolute monster, 2+ save rerolling 1, yes please. Obviously a buff sponge, but then all Khorne monsters are

I bought a godsworn warband and going to do a Khorne/mortal/Archaon list before starting Tzeentch. It might not be the strongest but Archaon model is 😍😍😍

[themortalgod]

The biggest problem is that his command ability is generally not worthwhile at 2k. People above have outlined how it can combo, but that combo is so expensive at 2k that you end up in a situation where you can dominate one objective but be utterly unable to contest any others. Having almost 1000pt investment (Archaon + 2-3 other buff heroes) to buff one super unit just doesn't work in a meta that usually has 3-6 objectives on the board. 

He is bad for the same reason that Nagash was bad before the LoN book. He is an expensive tool that is utterly dependent on bringing a bunch of other heroes to make optimal use of his toolkit and the cost of him + the other heroes is too heavy at 2k. Nagash was fixed by introducing Magic Lores and Endless spells which gives him stuff to cast. Archaon has experienced no such change. He still has to bring along an entourage and him + entourage simply isn't worth it.

 

 

[annarborhawk]

Well, despite all this, I'm still set on trying a 5x3 Varanguard & Archaon list.  [Mainly I'm doing it as a painting/hobbying idea].  IF Archaon still has ANY value, it's how he buffs Varanguard. I know it will not be super-competitive, but Archaon lets Varanguard hit on 2+ and gives them the second pile-in and attack once per game.  It will be one glorious turn of Alpha Striking Varanguard,  and then downhill from there.   

(Average dice each Varanguard unit will do 10 Dmg to a 4+ save target, and then assuming one model dies in the fight-back, the 2 left will do another 7 Dmg in the second attack.  If I get 3  of 5 units in on the Alpha strike that's 51 damage.    (And as I write this I realize that the All Out Attack command ability lasts the entire Combat phase, and so will work for the second pile-in and attack as well on one of the units).