themortalgod

Is this really a problem for most people? Most third party tournaments don't care, just official GW ones. I imagine that the vast vast vast majority of players never play at a GW event. Personally I haven't been at one in like 20 years. I think for most using altnerative minis is not at all a problem.

I haven't run mine recently, but my general feeling about the Mammoth is that he is decent for his pts but he is simply too big to be practical in game. That 260x210 base just doesn't fit anywhere on the field which means you are perma bogged down climbing over every piece of terrain which more or less stops him from going anywhere because of his slow movement.

Generally speaking, GW has rolled shields into armor saves now. The most obvious example being that all the Saurus with shields lost their shield benefit in the new book but all got +1 save. This is also why I think that the mounted chaos lord enjoys a 3+ save. GW's logic is that he has a 4+ save and the shield brings it up to a 3+. The perk of this though is that you get the bonus whether you model the shield on your model or not.

Personally, I think you'd be better off with one of the other marks. If you need BS immunity at a certain moment, just spend a CP, meanwhile Khorne, Nurgle, or Slaanesh all reflect a significant increase in the offensive output of a unit of marauders. Side note, imo, you are better off summoning marauders over marauder horsemen because the minimum 8 inch charge out of a 9 inch deep strike makes them very attractive to show up and cause havoc on the turn they arrive.

Yeah, like, really, its the most un-thematic Khorne CA ever created, but it is sooooo good. It really should have the Tzeentch CA imo.

For any future readers it is in Oct 2019 That said, the host of Syll is not good. You lose access to both a command trait and artifact table. In my opinion Godseekers make a much better Slaanesh mortal army. In fact, the are far superior at it than a Slaves to Darkness Slaanesh army due to getting twice as many bonus hits for big units. Hedonites of Slaanesh Marauders are one of the most powerful units in the game in terms of raw damage output relative to pts cost. For example, with no other buffs than being in the allegiance and being in a big unit. Hedonite Marauders bring more pain per pt spent than a unit of Frenzied Witch Elves wielding paired blades, they also heavily outperform other Slaanesh units. On top of that the Godseeker bonus means they have a minimum charge range of 9" which is insanely scary. (and this is before factoring in Syll'eske's aura)

It depends on how much you buff. The Khorne aura from the general compared to the Nurgle one has Khorne ahead, but once you start adding in other buffs like this get a bit more muddled, though, I find being able to stack theoretical maximums on a real world game is fairly rare. I've been running the list as all Nurgle since launch but I find the unreliability of the Lances makes them super problematic with Nurgle. (It is worth noting that the Nurgle aura is stronger on units with lots of low damage attacks where as the Khorne aura is stronger in situations of fewer high damage attacks) That said, the biggest factor is I really want that Khorne DP command ability but feel pretty dirty running just a lone Khorne DP thematically speaking. Regardless though, neither army has any true big threats. Marauders are probably our best threat as an army but we don't have anything that is truly scary.

I agree that the army structure does need to be taken into account but I'd still argue it is a relatively fair comparison as a starting point. If a unit is radically out of line in terms of its effectiveness of what it is supposed to be good at then I feel that there is a failure in balance.

When StD first dropped I was initially on the Nurgle bandwagon but have since felt that while Nurgle is super tough, it has a complete lack of significant damage threats so I have been moving towards toying with the idea of Khorne/Nurgle build and was wondering what everyone thinks of it? (Yes I know that dropping the knights to spam more marauders is stronger but I don't particularly want to run a horde army and I love my knight models) Despoilers Daemon Prince - General, Khorne, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ethereal Amulet - 210pts Daemon Prince - Nurgle - 210pts Be'Lakor - Whispers of Chaos - 240pts Chaos Sorcerer Lord - Nurgle, Mask of Darkness - 110pts 40 Chaos Marauders - Khorne, Axe/Shield - 300pts 10 Chaos Knights - Nurgle, Ensorcelled Weapons - 360pts 10 Chaos Knights - Khorne, Lances - 360pts 1 Chaos Warshrine - Nurgle - 170pts Total: 1960pts. Basically the idea is for the Khorne DP, Marauders, and Lance knights to make up a hammer that is (somewhat) protected from counter attacks thanks to the DP's command ability. Meanwhile the Nurgle contingent (Shrine, Nurgle DP, Sorcerer, and Sword Knights) form a tarpit that can bog down threats and hold objectives. I'm 50/50 on Be'lakor, his disruption ability is game altering, but beyond that he hits like a wet noodle and isn't a great caster so may feel like dead-weight in many matches.

Personally I interpret the wording of "and the attack sequence ends" as no additional effects can trigger. You would sequence the triggers in whatever order you want, but whichever occurs first would end the sequence. The additional attacks thing (the example in the faq) is different in that it doesn't end the attack sequence so you can order it before the MW trigger. Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger D6 MW -> end -> never get to 2 MW or Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger 2 MW -> end -> never get to D6 MW compared to Attack rolls a 6 -> trigger additional hit -> initial hit triggers 2 MW -> initial hit ends Perhaps it is my magic the gathering experience polluting my interpretation but in the game if an action causes several abilities to trigger, then those abilities all go on the stack in an order and resolve one at a time. However, if one of those effects prevents another one of those abilities from resolving, it takes precedence. (Not evidence suggesting this is GW's intention, but just what I am drawing in to build my interpretation) Though, even if I am wrong, I am skeptical about the value of an SoJ DP being an effective hero sniper. Most opponents won't let you anywhere near their heroes once they know you have the sword and even if you make it, you still only really have good odds of deleting smaller heroes. Its not like a DP is cheap, you are paying a lot for the fact that he is an aura/utility tool. Using him as a cruise missile makes him a really expensive cruise missile.

I feel they need to come down more than that if their warscroll isn't changing. I think 160 would be about right. If you think about it, Morghasts are basically the same as Tzaangor Enlightened. TE are a flying hammer that costs 160pts for 12 wounds worth of models that move 16". Morghasts also have 12 wounds worth of models and are a flying hammer, though a bit slower of one. If you simulate damage output. Morghasts also have similar damage output to a unit of TE. (higher than the base profile, but lower than when TE get their built-in re-rolls)

I disagree that the sword is as good as it sounds. It is situational and you don't have enough attacks to really make huge use of it. Especially since it would be replacing the 2 mortal wounds the sword already triggers on a 6. Sure it can spike high, but I think in the vast majority of situations you get way more value out of Ethereal Amulet on that beautiful 3+ save. If you put sword of judgment on the sword profile you are looking at ~3 extra MW above what you normally would deal assuming that you are on the charge AND fighting something the sword of judgement triggers on. (heroes/monsters) If you simulate it, the best choice is to have the Sword of Judgement attached to the talons, even though, they have fewer attacks. And yes, even though it does look like a fairly large increase proportionally, it doesn't reflect a radical increase in power. DP don't hit very hard to begin with, with SoJ, they hit a little harder in some situations, but not enough to say 1 shot something powerful. Personally, I see DPs as utility tanks, you bring them for their command ability, aura, and ability to take lots of punches. Thus I optimize to maximize that impact. Side note: I am also a TKs player who has had loads of success with Sword of Judgement on my Tomb Prince, setting him up to trigger the thing on a 4+ with 5 attacks is something spectacular to see. I have 1 shot big monsters with my little 80pt hero before. He makes way better use of it than the DP.

To be fair, the Exalted Chariot doesn't actually exist as a kit. It is just the clever use of two seeker kits. That said, GW could have thrown us a bone by having it use a larger base size in the official base size list. I have 2 of them but never run them because they are so annoying to play with because of all the spikey things hanging over the base and getting caught on everything. I think the main reason it even exists though is to get the Slaanesh warscroll count up without having to make more kits. Slaanesh has radically fewer unit options than the other god specifics chaos factions because GW completely neglected to give us a "mortal" side. (other than the old hellstrider kit). Being able to take a single chariot design and turn it into 6 warscrolls at least made the army feel a bit less empty until you realize that most of those chariot variants are "never take"

Yeah, unfortunately, for whatever reason, GW doesn't want us to use those beautiful models. They have been extremely sub-par ever since AoS launched. Even with the static +1 attack in GHoN they are still vastly over costed for what you get. It actually blew my mind GW actually nerfed Morghasts when they got re-printed in the Bonereaper book. Either they need a massive pts drop or a complete rework. (personally I would prefer the latter as I think that models that big and cool should be really fearsome on the table)

This is true, but just wanted to clarify that, as a general rule, bonus attacks are more valuable if you have fewer attacks to start with while re-rolls are more valuable if you have many attacks. You are correct that for most of our vampire units, the re-roll is more valuable, but I just wanted to point out that re-roll isn't always better. Say, if we simulate blood knights it fully supports your thesis. But, in comparison, if we simulate Morghasts with Halberds both buffs provide almost identical benefit: Finally, if we simulate something with a low number of attacks, say a single zombie in a big unit, the bonus attack is much more valuable.

For those asking, the official base size printed in the base size reference from GW is 280mm x 210mm which is a VERY big base. GW does NOT make bases that big. For my mammoth I had the base custom cut out of wood. It cost me about $5. I have a blog post on how I built the base for mine which may be helpful. Dark Fantastic mills also sells a 3D printed 280mm which I didn't discover until after I built mine. It won't be as strong as wood but features the GW style slanted edge which a wood cut doesn't. That said, my thoughts on playing it: The model is huge, impractically huge for most games. If you regularly play on a board that has very little terrain on it, he will be fine but if you are on a more filled board (what the game is designed for), the mammoth will be very severely limited in where he can go. It is not like there are rules for him to smash through walls, he has to CLIMB them which means on a huge model with a relatively low movement speed he is more or less stuck to very limited locations. This becomes even more of a problem in regards to the fact that when he dies there is a 50/50 chance that he will fall on your stuff which means you kind of want him away from your army doing his own thing. Some have mentioned using Sayl or other teleport abilities to move him around the battlefield but I have found in practice that this is a lot easier said than done. Finding a spot to drop down a 280x210mm base that that has to be 9" away from enemy models is not an easy thing in most games. On top of that there are some practicality issues of using him that I never even considered until I bought him. He is very big, very heavy, and since he is resin, he is very fragile. Transporting him to and from games is not an easy task. Personally, I only use mine at games at home so he can either be in my display cabinet or on the table, no reason to ever try to transport him in a car. That said war mammoths are awesome and even though he doesn't see much play, mine always draws a lot of attention on the shelf and I love looking at him. He is the heart and soul of my collection. Side note: It really bothers me that that kit specially has a chaos lord on a big throne riding the mammoth, but the rules for the mammoth don't actually take that lord into account for anything. It as if the lord isn't even there. Game Performance: For, in game performance, I have mixed feelings, aside from the mobility issues mentioned above, the mammoth isn't great. 22 wounds is sweet but he isn't as tanky as other options. For example, my Nurgle Daemon prince with her Ethereal Amulet, Despoilers Save, and self healing tends to take a lot more punches for less points. This exasperates when you consider that massive base size making it very easy for your opponent to get a big surround on the mammoth so it tends to have a lot more punches swinging at it than a smaller tank like the aforementioned DP. He can plug a big hole, but he isn't as hard to move as he looks like he should be. Damage output, is ok, but isn't overly powerful, if you simulate one with no other buffs you get the following. Which is respectable but nothing to write home about on a 320pt model. Also, due to how its tusks work, the mammoth benefits much less than other things from buffs as a big chunk of its damage comes from an attack that makes neither a hit roll or a wound roll. (Though to be fair it is also punished less by debuffs) In terms of getting a mammoth for yourself: Getting a legit mammoth is very difficult. They sometimes pop up on Ebay, expect to pay in the $1000 USD range at this point. alternatively, there are lots of recasters out there selling them for about $200 if this is something you are ok with. Alternatively, some have mentioned the Mierce mammoth, which is also very expensive and much smaller than the FW mammoth. The nice bit, though, is that they recently released a new version of him with the howdah on the back. (presumably because they specifically want to sell him to AoS players). Here is a picture of one below on the correct base size. I also included a picture of mine on the same size base. Note how the FW one fills out the base fairly well, where as for the Mierce one, the foot print of the mammoth is much smaller.

If you fairly compare them (aka normalizing for their different points costs), you will find that in all situations the Exalted Chariot will outperform the others in terms of value before even taking into account the respective mortal wounds abilities: You can see a simulation of this comparison here. (Note it simulates pretty slowly as the lowest common multiplier of their pts costs is really high) This pretty much means that the Hellflayer is always a poor choice as it has the same mortal wound ability that the bladebringer does, albeit a weaker version of it. (aka it is the same thing with poorer efficiency) Note that this comparison does not take into account the bonus attacks from soulscent triggers which will only serve to widen the gaps. Things are a little different with the Seeker Chariot as it fills a different role. It unquestionably does the least damage relative to pts costs of the 3 but it is also the most mobile in that it can run and charge thus it is more effective in a role that requires agility. The bigger bases and poorer movement of the larger two mean that they function better as hammers but much worse as flankers as they lag the agility to get into a position in the back line. In a nutshell: Exalted Chariot is by far the most efficient in terms of damage output relative to pts investment. Hellflayer is unquestionably the worst as it lacks the high damage of the Exalted Chariot while also lacking the mobility of the seeker chariot Seeker Chariot trades output for mobility. It has the lowest damage output of the trio but is much more agile so can be effective when used differently.

Yeah the Sigil is really bad because of its timing. You are always casting it to get a buff on the next opponent's next turn which means the opponent always has a chance to dispel it before you get any benefit out of it at all. It also means, as you point out, if you get the double turn, any charges on it effectively just expire with no impact.

I felt the same on first read, but the range on the attack last thing is pretty low. It basically needs to be in position to make a unit attack last on the turn before you need it. If it did its attack last thing at the start of the combat phase I'd run 3 every game. As is I plan to run 1 for the bravery debuff but don't expect it to force stuff to attack last very often. (1 is good since you can teleport it in range to make a unit attack last)

This is the list I'm working on. I really want to try to make all my chaos knights work because I REALLY love my chaos knights. Allegiance: StD - Cabalists. Be'lakor - 240 - Binding Damnation Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 110 - Mask of Darkness, Slaanesh Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 110 - Ruinous Vigor, Slaanesh Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - 260 - Whispers of Chaos, General, Bolstered by Hate, Ignax Scales, Slaanesh 20 Marauders - Sword/Board - 150 20 Marauders - Sword/Board - 150 10 Knights - Swords - 360 10 Knights - Lances - 360 Mindstealer Sphiranx - 100 5 Marauder Horsemen - 80 - Javalins 5 Marauder Horsemen - 80 - Javelins Total: 2000pts

They are high for StD units. Not particularly high compared to other top tier hammer units out there. Compared to warriors they are roughly double the output per pt spent but are significantly squishier due to lack of save re-roll and shield save vs MWs. They are also very slow which is the biggest challenge with them. Warriors are content being slow as they are an anvil but slow moving hammers are much harder to make use of. They are also finecast which doesn't help.

Yeah, I considered those, I likely will mostly use heads from Marauder Horsemen. I want some helmets with horns that look distinctly chaos rather than just generic barbarian heads. (assuming scale doesn't look silly)

I plan to use them, but my local store doesn't have them in stock yet. I have always hated the conan style barbarians that were "supposed" to be from the frozen north in the fluff. Never made any sense to me. GoT style wildlings is a way better marauder art style for chaos imo. These new mantic models are great, just need head swaps to be more chaosy.

Well for me, it is because I do. Most players in my local meta have plenty of disposable income and are looking to make the strongest army possible. (several of who are looking to practice to climb the ITC rankings) If I can't go against the most powerful lists in the game, piloted by very capable players. I'm going to get thumped every game. I'm not looking for power to creep forward, just to be able to be on the same par as armies I can expect to face. My ideal army is between the 60th and 80th percentile. I don't like playing the most powerful armies. Unfortunately, I still feel pretty confident in putting this army between the 35th and 45th percentile. Maybe a bit higher if there is something key missing that I don't know about. I don't remember the last time I got to play against a casual list. I'm used to facing 25+ eels, Quad Keepers, etc every game. I'd also add that if any army isn't really strong, my local doesn't even want to play against it. I was playing a more casual thematic list for most of this year and people actually stopped wanting to play against me because it was too easy to win. They didn't feel like they were being challenged enough. I haven't actually been able to play an AoS game in about 2 months because I've more or less had to accept I have to start over and build a stronger army. Mostly been playing 40k, KT, and Warcry in the meantime.

Fair, though, I guess it depends, the Khorne strong aura is pretty good. Nurgle/Tzeentch are so situational that they won't bring value most of the time. Slaanesh and undivided ones are decent. Also, I don't see how I will have enough points to ever field 5 generals anyway unless the army is just marauder spam. The 6" board edge restriction is pretty limiting. Also 10 marauders isn't much of a threat. (their output below 20 models is pretty bad) It is certainly a resource so better than nothing but I just don't value it it very much. I've seen people try to use the Beastman or Living City deep strike on board edge mechanics usually to pretty abysmal results. It is really easy to deny them any good landing spots.