Luke1705

If it's 80 I would fill it with shackles in a second. That spell is great

Tzeentch (specifically with Archaon), knights of the empty throne, seraphon and daughters will all be pretty great IMO

There are definitely some banner shenanigans in there, and using that in conjunction with other endless spells is definitely my favorite way to guarantee a good use of a 1 on a destiny dice. The lifeswarm spell is the "if I had just a few more points I would totally include it in my list" spell right now. I just can't quite seem to fit it without sacrificing a touch more than I'd like to in other areas. But it's very good.

Nagash is going to make you have a very bad time casting. Your re-rolls will help somewhat, but his flat bonus is just so good. So you have to somehow try to kill him (very difficult if the opponent is good) or avoid his deny range (also difficult if the opponent is good). I think you have to use your mobility to the maximum and do your best to focus down and kill whichever unit you can target from outside of Nagash's deny range, if any.

I don't see a world where the tzeentch endless spells pull their weight over a darkfire daemonrift, and I mean the gaunt summoner is so auto include. Also I struggle to see as much value in battalions (even changehost) at 1500 because you lose more supporting elements. Like I mean that's like 350 points in not models. For a 1500 point list, that's a lot of board presence sacrificed. With a little tweaking, he could toss in 20 more horrors and that's literally 100 wounds.

So one thing I was thinking about and wanted to make sure I was playing correctly - you can only get horrors back from the pink banner while the banner is alive, and you need to kill pinks first (except in battleshock) so if they do 10 wounds to the squad that you fail to save/pass FNP for, you cannot auto pass battleshock with a destiny dice of 1 and you cannot return any horrors to the squad any more (barring lifeswarm shenanigans). Is that correct? I'm thinking about using a lifeswarm to try and bring the command models back and get some mid game shenanigans, or debating if I just want to use endless spells to run over a handful of guys and guarantee that I'm going to be able to use that 1 to increase the squad size.

Yeah the only list it lost to was petrifex nagash. Turns out if you struggle to cast any spells, this list is in trouble 😅 You don’t really need double pile in in this list because they can’t fall back. So you’ll get to swing on their turn even if they really don’t want you to lol, which is functionally similar to a double pile in. Fyreslayers are actually a pretty good matchup. Archaon eats polexe zerkers for breakfast, they have no magic defense and you can kill their heroes rather easily with your magic. Non-nagash OBR doesn’t really concern me with this list. They can pump out tons of damage yes but they are slow and will never kill archaon while he can whistle them down. Also the daemonrift does absurd amounts of mortal wounds and that is the weakness of OBR (not to mention the other spells that do mortal wounds) Other tzeentch could certainly be a problem. I don’t even want to think about playing a mirror match or against eternal conflagration changehost. Pink horrors vs each other just sounds like a logistical nightmare. That being said, all the respect in the world to this guy for pioneering the list but I’m not sure how well it deals with slaanesh (although I think in between spells and unkillable archaon it does the trick)

Re-rolls are from the warscroll spell on the sorcerer lord. Enemy re-rolling sixes to hit (only against archaon) is his new eye of sheeran ability. The -1 to hit is from the locus of tzeentch since archaon is a tzeentch daemon hero and he is within range of himself

So I haven't played the list, but as I understand it, it is something like what you said. The daemonrift is a HUGE source of mortal output and the curseling's AOE spell re-rolls are an enormous force multiplier. Archaon can get the 2+ armor as soon as he spots the right enemy. One of the horror units becomes twice as hard to take an objective from (so just about literally impossible). I have not seen any streams, but I would love to if someone knows of any. The difficulty in playing the list is maintaining it -1 to hit buff aura (archaon helps with this a lot lol), making sure that your endless spells don't get turned against you (except when you want to create more horrors). The only thing I keep wanting to try to fit into this list is the lifeswarm to heal horrors after damaging them on the first turn. Archaon is both a hammer and an anvil in this list (and an excellent one of both). He's going to hit on a 1+ re-rolling all (not just failed, thank you Mr. Space Marine Chapter Master), wound on a 2+ re-rolling all (not just failed, so you can fish for slayer of kings if you want to) and he's got a 3+ (then a 2+ save once the agenda is completed) re-rolling all (not just failed, so rend is less detrimental to him). He's -1 to hit and they have to re-roll their sixes....it's just a nightmare to even think about trying to kill him. My friend plays LOTL Hearthguard Berserkers and Archaon *wants* to run into the poleaxe guys while he murders them. The broadaxe ones are a little more annoying but it's still not the end of the world (and wow purple sun does so much work against HGB but that's neither here nor there). As long as you can keep your support heroes alive (gaunt until he poops out horrors and ideally the curseling and the sorcerer lord for the entire game) you are in a *really* good spot. I honestly think this is one of, if not the, most competitive ways to play tzeentch right now. Of course, this is all theorycraft at this point from me until it actually hits the table, but that will be soon enough

Sometimes, at 6 in the morning, I forget what subfactions are whoops

The list I scratch built was: Archaon sorc lord regular lord (or second sorc lord) 6 varanguard 40 marauders Iron golems or cogs

I was comparing it to the old plaguetouched, which I liked quite a bit. 1 drop is assuredly very strong and really you’re only paying 130 since you get the extra command point. Without the warband, you get 20 more marauders, which is probably not worth it alone. But if my math is right you could drop the warband, warshrine, and a sorc lord for 60 marauders or 20 more marauders and 3 more varanguard. At that point, of course, you’re probably going host of the everchosen and you have an inherently different list

It definitely has a great deal of flexibility as far as which units you want to pick. I’m just not sure the effect, low drop count and extra relic are worth 180 points

Interesting that you still prefer the plague touched. I’m not convinced it’s worthwhile still. I’d probably also drop the warshrine in favor of more bodies since the sorc lord can buff archaon anyhow and I’ve never passed a 6+ FNP a day in my life 😂

Yes. A hero is still a unit

Has anyone had decent tournament success running the big guy under slaves allegiance? I keep making lists with him for slaanesh and tzeentch but I’m trying to craft one for slaves

Really interesting I’ve been listcrafting with blocks of 10 for the most part. Changehost needs so many units that I feel like you don’t really have points for 20 and the list I want to run with archaon....well let’s just say archaon is a few points too 😂

Sorry if I made it sound like there is only one correct interpretation. Obviously GW could intend one way or the other. Grammatically, I disagree that it should say dice rolls plural if interpretation 2 is intended because it says each time, and you only roll one die each time a roll is made. That wouldn’t fix the issue. All I’m saying is that I read it in a specific way for the reasons outlined. Clarity from GW is always appreciated, as their use of language is not always clear or consistent. At the end of the day, all opinions are just that - opinions which could be right or could be wrong. That being said, I do see the ambiguity on a third read through. And frankly, just the fact that reading it more times can change one’s opinion on the solidity of a position is never good rules writing.

I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of archaon in a duplicitous host. He can get the +1 save buff so easily and with a friendly sorcerer lord he is going to do SO MUCH WORK. The list I'm working towards doesn't have a battalion so I'm stuck with the required trait and artifact, which are totally fine on the sorcerer lord (+1 save) and curseling (aoe spell re-rolls). The spell I really like for archaon is of course +1 to hit and +1 to wound (infusion arcanum) and then for him to cast the daemonrift. That endless spell is just bonkers. I like having archaon because I feel like it is decently easy to snipe out the gaunt summoner (maybe not in one turn but it could totally happen, and your opponent is going to be extra motivated to do so before he poops out the horrors). Having archaon not only gives an unmovable brick that people can't fall back from, but it also provides some seriously meaningful offense. Hitting and wounding on re-rollable 2+ is like.....pretty good it turns out.

So actually I would have certainly thought it was interpretation 1, but the command ability says the unit's ability, not the roll for that model. They probably actually mean the first interpretation, just based on how powerful the latter interpretation would be. However, for an event that I was TO'ing at, I would rule in favor of interpretation 2 as written. I would definitely send in for an FAQ as although the language isn't ambiguous, it has the tried and true feeling of "this is too good to be true and sounds like GW not understanding what words mean". It's taken me many years of playing both 40k and AoS competitively for that particular spidey sense to be tuned, but I feel pretty confident that GW intends the first interpretation, to the point where I could see a TO saying "we're going to play it Rules As Intended and use interpretation 1"

The crux of the issue around this question is a misunderstanding of what “unmodified” means in age of sigmar. Games Workshop has consistently used that term to mean “after re-rolls, but before modifiers”. Some warscrolls (such as the witch aelves’ bladed buckler rule) still have those words in parenthesis after the word “unmodified”, so we can pretty clearly accept that as their definition of what unmodified means. If you (erroneously) assume that “unmodified” means “unable to be modified” or “unmodifiable “ (neither of which Games Workshop has ever used it to mean) then you would be right to conclude that a destiny dice of 1 cannot proc the return horrors or stop battleshock ability, as per the FAQ, a save destiny dice are no longer unmodifiable when used for battleshock or saves. This is not relevant to the pink horror ability, however. That ability asks you to check what the “unmodified” roll is. So after you have re-rolled all of your battleshock dice (some icons or horn blowers do require this) but *before* you apply the battleshock modifier from how many models were lost, you check to see what the actual number on the dice is. If it’s a 1, the horror ability procs, regardless of whether that dice was a destiny die or a normal one. In case anyone hasn’t been following the Tzeentch competitive scene as of late, the reason why the destiny dice needed an FAQ is because previously they could not be modified at all. This resulted in some people (correctly, according to the rules) saying “ok I lost 43 horrors this turn, I’m going to use a 4 on my destiny dice and I pass morale because my bravery is 10 and 4 is less than 10. This works because destiny dice cannot be modified”. Now that no longer works, thankfully.

Joel Graham did very well with this list at a recent 200+ person event, going 5-1 and placing top 10. I was looking the interactions over and it is pretty bonkers.

It’s not a hedonite so not good

Basically what I came up with except with one less seeker squad and no epitome to get a bunch of endless spells, but I like your version more. I don't want to have to get more hellstriders but including the epitome is a big win. That extra depravity is huge and being 5 drop vs 6 drop is mostly meh. I think going down to 4 drops is a lot more important. The only thing I wonder is how plausible it will be to keep syll'esske within 12" to proc the double depravity while also hiding behind the pallisade when against shooting armies. Will have to see, but I'm definitely thinking this is the way to go going forwards. Also how could this not be matched play legal? It has points.

So just touching on some of the issues you've mentioned: Tzeentch requires line of sight for most of their powers I believe. So palisade does solve that problem. Same with cities. Unless they under drop slaanesh (which they do not I don't think) you can go first and use line of sight blocking to your advantage No idea what kunnin' rukk is. Haven't dove into the new book yet. But if it's shooting that ignores LOS, that is a problem for sure. But they're not normally a hugely shooty army, so I'm a little less concerned. Skaven are a problem. They under drop us if we take the new syll'esske stuff because IMO the vengeful alliance isn't worthwhile. I can't make a syll'esske host list with less than 5 drops even with seeker cavalcade. The gnawholes we can usually block somewhat (but less well if they go first) and those 24" guns will down syll'esske on average, though it's not 100%. I guess at that point you just take the depravity generated by syll'esske and be happy they're not killing your keepers and then wombo the ****** out of them with your keepers. Frankly it would probably be better to have the normal hosts against skaven to stop their mobility by under dropping them and not getting shot before you move. Your list I like except that it's pretty high drop. Would recommend the seeker cavalcade to lower the drop count.