Jarminiatures Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Malakithe said: Anyone spot points for the most important faction....squigs? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Skavens players can build their specialist-clan lists using clanrats and stormvermins!! Not sure how good or bad Skavens are going to be because there is a lot to unpack (and I don't have a deep knowledge of our favorite rat-dudes), but the layout is crazy. There are a lot of columns of text for all their traits and artefacts with "Masterclan only" (or any other clan) on the begining of each trait and artefact. Not sure if it was the best answer to make it clear for the reader but whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, Grimrock said: Bounty hunter battalion leaked on the AoS subreddit, no requirements for the members to be Veterans. Just two to three units that aren't Behemoths, Artillery, or Leaders. You can only take one of the battalions, but you've got 2-3 units that are rocking +1 damage against all of your opponents foot battleline. Hot take: this isn't the season of horde troops, it's the season small elite mounted battleline units. They can get the bonus of double damage without the risk of getting shredded in return. Personally I'd be trying to take as few Veterans as physically possible. Nowhere near worth the risk they pose now. Armies that can take small elite groups like Stormcast Dragons, Varanguard, or Pusgoyle Blightlords will get a big boost and armies that can't are just going to get nuked left right and center. I was thinking about what I should do as a Gravelords player, and the incentive structure is pretty weird. I'm going avoid having any of my elite infantry be battleline, because it just makes them too susceptible to Bounty Hunters. Big Skeleton blobs are out, because they can't withstand the damage of +1 damage skirmishers. MSU zombies are in, because 20 zombies counting as 60 on objectives are absurd, and they die to a stiff breeze anyway. Also, shoutouts to Direwolves for being on a cavalry base but getting to fight in 2 ranks anyway because they are not mounted. Sorry, Blood Knights and Black Knights, better luck next time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just to check so I'm not missing something. For veteran units, are the pros: - Can make them count as 3 models each when in a particular battalion * - Can benefit from the new command ability if there are 10+ models in the unit * - Can contest the special objective The cons for these units: - Can be targeted by +1 damage from units in a particular battalion * - Some battleplans give out extra victory points when a player kills their opponent's veteran units * * not guaranteed every game, depending on lists/units. The penalties do seem harsher for taking these units. In the past, taking a unit of 30 or 40 would capture an objectives on numbers alone - they would only need to count as 3 for objectives when against large units themselves, so the new battalion doesn't really help these units. On the other hand, +1 damage against these units probably secures the unit's death and they'll count for 0 then. The command abilities costs a command point and may not even happen, as well as needing 10 or more models in the unit, so it's not something to rely on. Contesting the special objective is important, but as there's only one of these objectives at a time, you're better off just having a single unit to chase these. In all honesty, I think this puts me off taking battleline units and I don't really see how it encourages hordes. If someone could give me a good reason otherwise, I'd love to hear it - I could well be missing something. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just now, Enoby said: Just to check so I'm not missing something. For veteran units, are the pros: - Can make them count as 3 models each when in a particular battalion * - Can benefit from the new command ability if there are 10+ models in the unit * - Can contest the special objective The cons for these units: - Can be targeted by +1 damage from units in a particular battalion * - Some battleplans give out extra victory points when a player kills their opponent's veteran units * * not guaranteed every game, depending on lists/units. The penalties do seem harsher for taking these units. In the past, taking a unit of 30 or 40 would capture an objectives on numbers alone - they would only need to count as 3 for objectives when against large units themselves, so the new battalion doesn't really help these units. On the other hand, +1 damage against these units probably secures the unit's death and they'll count for 0 then. The command abilities costs a command point and may not even happen, as well as needing 10 or more models in the unit, so it's not something to rely on. Contesting the special objective is important, but as there's only one of these objectives at a time, you're better off just having a single unit to chase these. In all honesty, I think this puts me off taking battleline units and I don't really see how it encourages hordes. If someone could give me a good reason otherwise, I'd love to hear it - I could well be missing something. We might be missing something but I think the more likely result is the AoS team dropped the ball on this just like they did Prime Hunters. Like in my previous post, it all comes across as if 'design by committee' or corporate meddling, i.e. these rules must be in X season despite making more sense to be in a battlescroll (I'm thinking of the ranks/coherency rules). Well, at least we won't have to change our lists much at all. Always a silver lining. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 18 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Sorry, Blood Knights and Black Knights, better luck next time. Blood Knights with +1 damage grinding up enemy veterans with repeat-charges still sound pretty solid to me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyadventurer Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Skaven rules have leaked now. Clan specifics units are "take one as battleline per Clan hero" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Just now, Sception said: Blood Knights with +1 damage grinding up enemy veterans with repeat-charges still sound pretty solid to me. For sure! I was just talking in terms of getting to fight with extra models in combat. Blood Knights already had no problems destroying infantry before and will have even less problems doing it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 34 minutes ago, Jarminiatures said: A weak army since it released, the weakest army, by a huge margin for all of aos3, and still one of the weakest (if not the weakest) before that in aos2 and they still can't get any point drops, its a ridiculous but about what I expected. The army barely even benefits from the new rules, since their infantry all had 2" reach or were on 25mm bases. Presumably they're one of the fall books, but its another 3-4 months of being absolutely abysmal before then. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wordy9th Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 I can imagine the strategy will be: take out the opponents bounty hunters and have your battle-line hold objectives. The risk reward of where you allocate your points will be the interesting part. Do you go for more battle line and hope you can tie up / take out the bounty hunters while you completely dominate objectives? Or do you go for a Hunter kill strategy while holding out with minimal objective scorers. it’s an interesting tactical quandary that’s for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pnkdth said: We might be missing something but I think the more likely result is the AoS team dropped the ball on this just like they did Prime Hunters. Like in my previous post, it all comes across as if 'design by committee' or corporate meddling, i.e. these rules must be in X season despite making more sense to be in a battlescroll (I'm thinking of the ranks/coherency rules). Well, at least we won't have to change our lists much at all. Always a silver lining. I don't know, maybe we just misinterpreted what the point of the season was? Like we saw the rules for Galletian Veterans and thought 'oh, they're previewing all this stuff to buff hordes so this season must be about hordes', but it was all a bait and switch. All those rules were added on in a desperate attempt to keep hordes relevant. The only reason you have fight in two ranks and count as extra models is because of how ridiculously powerful bounty hunters are going to be and how much of a liability troops are due to tactics/missions. Edited June 17, 2022 by Grimrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: For sure! I was just talking in terms of getting to fight with extra models in combat. Blood Knights already had no problems destroying infantry before and will have even less problems doing it now. Yeah, the double ranks thing isn't to relevant to the gravelords. Yes it works for dire wolves, but they're not super threatening regardless, and all the other potential veteran units are on 25mm bases so they can fight in two ranks anyway. Those battalion's, though, I think single drops won't be quite so common. Good thing Soublights don't care too much if they go first or not. Make me go second? That's fine, lets me gatekeep the double turn, with a faction that /hates/ getting double turned. Make me go first? Gravesite deployment lets me dominate the mid field objectives and you'll be praying for the double turn to have any hope of making up the starting advantage you just gave me. .... Or nighthaunt. Make me go first with nighthaunt and the new 24" hexwraith move will have me walling off all your stuff - big infantry hordes? assassins (who don't get extra damage against hexwraiths since cav can't be jello vets)? Doesn't matter. Unless you fly, deep strike, or teleport, if you make me go first you're not leaving your deployment zone for at least an entire game round, maybe two even, while my ghosts soak up objective points. But if you make me go second then a double turn of wave of terror charges is hanging over your head like the Sword of Damocles. Having a strong position regardless of who's going first freeing you up to take the hew battalions seems like a pretty big deal. Edited June 17, 2022 by Sception 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Enoby said: If someone could give me a good reason otherwise, I'd love to hear it - I could well be missing something. I think it's the level of nuance that people are overlooking. There are so many factors going into each game. The battle plan (which may promote having veterans or killing them) Expert battalion for Gelato veterans counting as 3 (Keep in mind, if 4 models are left alive on an objective, they'll outnumber a unit of 10) The BH battalion for units getting +1 damage against Gelato veterans (big damage against infantry, but not cav, heroes, or monsters) Units choosing NOT to be in one of the two above battalions (Remember we have other battalions) What specific battleline units are available to a faction (some will want to be geared towards one bat or the other) The proving ground permitting only Gelato veterans to score (huge if your enemy decides to take few veterans) A spell that reduces objective count of a unit by half (Spelldom factions get a huge benefit from this) As is the trend, everyone will try to prophesize what the season will really amount to, but I think the game is going to be a madhouse (in a good way). Some players will skew into the damage battalion but miss out on VPs, others will swarm objectives but could get decimated halfway through. And everything in between. I simply don't see there ever being one, globalized solution to winning matches this season...there's simply too much going on here. Edited June 17, 2022 by Mutton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) edit, delete, added to prev post Edited June 17, 2022 by Sception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Sylvaneth seems to have awesome rules and crazy combos going on!! At elast they are going to be really fun to play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tendeadgods Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Beliman said: Sylvaneth seems to have awesome rules and crazy combos going on!! At elast they are going to be really fun to play! Has there been any battletome leaks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tendeadgods said: Has there been any battletome leaks? Yes! Everything is already leaked. There is a lot going on. A trait that akes Ethereal, a lot of heals and summons (return 1/1D3 models), Kurnoth that hit really hard with 3+saves and can be healed and return models, a subfaction that tursn down Fly High if in melee, magic that can be cast using mirror Overgrown/woods, +1rend abilities (near woods), etc... I don't know if there is a anything OP, but it seems really fun to play. Btw, Spite-reveneants and tree-revenants with 2 wounds, and the last ones can take an AoA or AoD for free (really versatile). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novakai Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 34 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: A weak army since it released, the weakest army, by a huge margin for all of aos3, and still one of the weakest (if not the weakest) before that in aos2 and they still can't get any point drops, its a ridiculous but about what I expected. The army barely even benefits from the new rules, since their infantry all had 2" reach or were on 25mm bases. Presumably they're one of the fall books, but its another 3-4 months of being absolutely abysmal before then. I doubt point drop would have matter and I don’t think they can get any lower as they are on the threshold before being too cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novakai Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 27 minutes ago, Mutton said: I think it's the level of nuance that people are overlooking. There are so many factors going into each game. The battle plan (which may promote having veterans or killing them) Expert battalion for Gelato veterans counting as 3 (Keep in mind, if 4 models are left alive on an objective, they'll outnumber a unit of 10) The BH battalion for units getting +1 damage against Gelato veterans (big damage against infantry, but not cav, heroes, or monsters) Units choosing NOT to be in one of the two above battalions (Remember we have other battalions) What specific battleline units are available to a faction (some will want to be geared towards one bat or the other) The proving ground permitting only Gelato veterans to score (huge if your enemy decides to take few veterans) A spell that reduces objective count of a unit by half (Spelldom factions get a huge benefit from this) As is the trend, everyone will try to prophesize what the season will really amount to, but I think the game is going to be a madhouse (in a good way). Some players will skew into the damage battalion but miss out on VPs, others will swarm objectives but could get decimated halfway through. And everything in between. I simply don't see there ever being one, globalized solution to winning matches this season...there's simply too much going on here. New ice cream flavor - Gelato veterans 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackOfBlades Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, novakai said: I doubt point drop would have matter and I don’t think they can get any lower as they are on the threshold before being too cheap If a points drop "wouldnt have mattered", how could they become "too cheap"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acr0ssth3p0nd Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Beliman said: Btw, Spite-reveneants and tree-revenants with 2 wounds, and the last ones can take an AoA or AoD for free (really versatile). Beyond the teleport, they're the definition of "jack of all trades, master of zilch." They're an objective taker, with no way to boost a charge from teleporting, and drastically insufficient ability to remove chaff from objectives. Assuming 100 points for a min-sized unit of clan rats, and assuming the tree-revs can make the charge, 110 points of tree-revs will kill an average of 4 clan rats. That leaves you with 16 clan rats, who can then kill an average of 1 tree rev (instead of 2) and leave you with 4 tree revs instead of 3. An average of 3 more clan rats flee from morale, leaving you with 4 tree revs and 13 clan rats! I wonder who controls the objective now? Spoiler, it's still the clan rats. If the tree-revs had a reliable charge, you could make a case for running a reinforced unit to perform that role better, but they don't. Edited June 17, 2022 by acr0ssth3p0nd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, JackOfBlades said: If a points drop "wouldnt have mattered", how could they become "too cheap"? If I were to guess, "too cheap" is when a unit could have as bad stats as they wanted, but the reason you take them is because they're more bodies. For a ridiculous example, if goblins got so cheap that grots were a wound a point - so a unit of 20 was 20 wounds - they could have utterly useless stats but would break the game because of the sheer number of wounds. A unit can be so bad that any points change wouldn't save them - or rather, any points change would only ever upgrade them to "useless wound pillows". These are the units in desperate need of a points change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, novakai said: I doubt point drop would have matter and I don’t think they can get any lower as they are on the threshold before being too cheap Stuff like spider riders, squig herd, squig hoppers, bounderz, and grots have literally not seen a single drop since the book released (with bounderz and grots actually going up). Its not like they lowered the points and are scared to drop them any further, they just never even tried. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackOfBlades Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Enoby said: If I were to guess, "too cheap" is when a unit could have as bad stats as they wanted, but the reason you take them is because they're more bodies. For a ridiculous example, if goblins got so cheap that grots were a wound a point - so a unit of 20 was 20 wounds - they could have utterly useless stats but would break the game because of the sheer number of wounds. A unit can be so bad that any points change wouldn't save them - or rather, any points change would only ever upgrade them to "useless wound pillows". These are the units in desperate need of a points change. Indeed, and so then the points drop would matter - which i was trying to state in a roundabout way. And (assuming the units are still qualitatively subpar, but not utterly incapable of inflicting casualties) more bodies would add up to more casualties for the enemy too. I just thought the formulation was a bit odd. Edited June 17, 2022 by JackOfBlades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novakai Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, JackOfBlades said: If a points drop "wouldnt have mattered", how could they become "too cheap"? Because the changes are not going to make Gitz perform better and there a design threshold where you can’t price thing cheaper (example Cygors are worth 80pt, they are never going to be priced that low anyway) Point change don’t make thing magically better unless you manage to fit another worthwhile unit in you which is not achieve by point reductions of 10s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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