The Rumour Thread

[Shankelton]

35 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I agree with everyone else that some sort of generic humans dwarves and elves are a super necessary release. They may not be the most popular or the most sexy but they definitely provide a context that is currently lacking. Rampaging hordes need things  to attack, chaos needs something to corrupt, necromancer's  need bodies  to ressurrect and God warriorz need something to defend after all. Without, it just feels kinda empty. While more other cool armies may be individually more exciting and will sell better, I think the IP as a whole needs a generic faction or 2.

I'd argue against that they need to be generic. You can easily crank up the aesthetic and ideas for those generic factions well still keeping the heart of what they are.

Take Dispossessed for example. I wouldn't want to see more basic dwarf infantry in a release, or goat cavalry, or traditional siege engines. Instead, i'd want to see constructs, animated metal and stone golems, or some other fantastical range that feeds that "creation" keyword that duardin have at their core.

High Elves can easily be built into this "light elf" fantasy that's floating around, same for their dark elf cousins. 

But I do totally agree that society as a whole needs a foundation. Right now the new factions are so unique, and different from one another that mixed order seems... weird. We need the baseline of understanding the day to day life for the humans of the freecity. How the major elven empires will interact with themselves, or with other races. What does a restored Karak look like? How does a bastion that powerful and impenetrable effect the surrounding realm? Are freecities attracted to them for trade, and the wealth they no doubt incur? 

That's what I want, and a lot of that can be done with art, and stories. It doesn't need a huge release ASAP, much as new models are great!

Edited January 20, 2019 by Shankelton

[Overread]

Humans were far from annihilated in the Realms. Sigmar is their patron god and humans themselves were as heavily populated as any other species. They were, like ALL others, decimated when Chaos launched their major offensive and took the Realms for a Thousand Years. Dwarves, Aelves, Humans - all were crushed.

 

Also you're mistaken about the gods - the age of Gods and beasts was the Age of Myth. That age is passed long now and whilst there are still such creatures around they are more rare and muted. Humans can very much survive just as dwarves and Aelves  and orks can in this Realm. If it were only the gods then all the other races we play would be near useless. They'd be driven out and crushed too.

 

Yet we see that in the early Realmgate novels there are many bands of humans who survive; we see in the newer stories that humans not only survive, but build cities - big ones. The only reason they are undrerepresented on the tabletop is because they've yet to have their Battletome(s). Just like Destruction and the goblins.

 

 

Humans can very much survive and thrive in the AoS setting. What might set them apart is a use of things like black powder; the power of steam; the power of magic and also infantry and regular swords. Bolted to the side of the Stormcast; aided by their Patron God Sigmar and perhaps others in the future. The Realms are a dynamic setting and there's certainly room for all factions.

 

 

 

Also the Old world was on the brink of the end of the world, but lets not forget the "end of the world" was only a theory until it happened. Until it happened the end could have been coming for another thousand generations or might even have been defeated and driven back. 

[novakai]

So any ideas of what going to be reveal at LVO for AoS while we are all speculating about the need of a human faction and how distant the release is going to be

My guess would be the stuff they tease about in the Carrion Empire reveal (maybe new BT for FEC and Skaven), the remaining Nightvault Warbands, and a 17 second teaser of the next big AoS release

[sorokyl]

 

2 hours ago, HollowHills said:

They are allies now because they have points costs, they will lose their points cost at the same time as they lose allies status in GH19. 100% it will happen. GW aren't going to keep supporting models they no longer sell, they aren't even trying to link to selling the Greenskinz sc in the post. 

2

Did you know that the GHB has models in it that GW does not still sell?  Mostly Elves, from what I can tell.   Reivers are a GA Order battleline, but you won't find them in the store. Just one example. 

I very much doubt they will be removed from GHB this year, or next year, based on the fact that it's still on shelves around the world.  Gitmob will probably go first, since it has been a long time since those models were in brick and motor stores. But I still suspect both will have points in the next book.    It's just a very small part of 1 page in a book that is already  full of things useless to most people. 

[HorticulusTGA]

I think Warhammer Silver Tower was a good indication of things to come. 

The Grot Scuttlings (mix of Spiders and Night Grot) lead to the Fungoid Cave-Shaman, which ended in the Gloomspite Gitz release (loosely based on the Blackfire Pass goblin army). The Darkoath Chieftain lead to the Darkoath Warqueen, which will end in a full SdT release in 2019 (the first Darkoath concepts were already in the 2015 AOS core book*). The Aelves will lead to other, dark and Ulgu- based Aelves, etc.

*See this picture : 

So I think the Devoted Of Sigmar will be the first Order, Battletomed normal human army.

They have the Excelsior Warpriest from WHQ:ST, are present the fluff since the 2015 AOS core book, and have some artworks in AOS2.

(I'm wondering if the mark on the human's foreheads is God King's Brand, from the new SCE battletome, which use the word "devoted"...)

[bsharitt]

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an Orcs and Goblins compendium the way we saw we saw Dark Elves. I think Greenskinz and Gitmob will stay in the GHB 2019 at least. I'm tempted to get another Loonboss or two out of these made too order since I like them both better than the new guy. Might even get a few more Madcap shamans just so I have a nice variety to choose from. That's also a nice Maniac Weirdnob with either a Wurrgog prophet or Wardokk they have there. I might need to pick that one up in case I ever decide to build out my bonesplitterz.

[RexHavoc]

8 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

I think Warhammer Silver Tower was a good indication of things to come. 

The Grot Scuttlings (mix of Spiders and Night Grot) lead to the Fungoid Cave-Shaman, which ended in the Gloomspite Gitz release (loosely based on the Blackfire Pass goblin army). The Darkoath Chieftain lead to the Darkoath Warqueen, which will end in a full SdT release in 2019 (the first Darkoath concepts were already in the 2015 AOS core book*). The Aelves will lead to other, dark and Ulgu- based Aelves, etc.

*See this picture : 

So I think the Devoted Of Sigmar will be the first Order, Battletomed normal human army.

They have the Excelsior Warpriest from WHQ:ST, are present the fluff since the 2015 AOS core book, and have some artworks in AOS2.

(I'm wondering if the mark on the human's foreheads is God King's Brand, from the new SCE battletome, which use the word "devoted"...)

I always thought we might see the devoted come in the next starter set (AoS3) versus death cults. There have been a number of mentions of the death cults in lore and some art work popped up around the AoS2 release. One of the rumour engines looked remotely like part of the the death cult art, but it seems it wasn't as most of the older AoS rumour engine stuff has been solved since then.

[novakai]

I wonder are they just going to be like a Stormcast in training faction

it be like go devote yourself to Sigmar, be zealots and fight without care of your own life, when you eventually die if your fate is strong you become a Stormcast

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Humans were far from annihilated in the Realms. Sigmar is their patron god and humans themselves were as heavily populated as any other species. They were, like ALL others, decimated when Chaos launched their major offensive and took the Realms for a Thousand Years. Dwarves, Aelves, Humans - all were crushed.

 

Also you're mistaken about the gods - the age of Gods and beasts was the Age of Myth. That age is passed long now and whilst there are still such creatures around they are more rare and muted. Humans can very much survive just as dwarves and Aelves  and orks can in this Realm. If it were only the gods then all the other races we play would be near useless. They'd be driven out and crushed too.

 

Yet we see that in the early Realmgate novels there are many bands of humans who survive; we see in the newer stories that humans not only survive, but build cities - big ones. The only reason they are undrerepresented on the tabletop is because they've yet to have their Battletome(s). Just like Destruction and the goblins.

 

 

Humans can very much survive and thrive in the AoS setting. What might set them apart is a use of things like black powder; the power of steam; the power of magic and also infantry and regular swords. Bolted to the side of the Stormcast; aided by their Patron God Sigmar and perhaps others in the future. The Realms are a dynamic setting and there's certainly room for all factions.

 

 

 

Also the Old world was on the brink of the end of the world, but lets not forget the "end of the world" was only a theory until it happened. Until it happened the end could have been coming for another thousand generations or might even have been defeated and driven back. 

Not mistaken at all. I said the Gods drive the narrative and the armies in AOS are the means by which they do it. That’s simply correct. The Age of Myth was a creation era in which the Gods were active in the forging of the world. But they haven’t ceased to be involved in the world since then have they? Are you telling me that Nagash, Sigmar et al aren’t involved in the Age of Sigmar, plotting and scheming and outmanoeuvring each other with their armies, as I said?

I didn’t say humans were annihilated either. As I said, humans are there, they’re invokved. But they’re observers.  I was talking about a faction within the game, and Solely human armies-which is what a human army would be-would be annihilated logically speaking. An army full of troops with a less murderous profile than a blood reaver, exciting. Unless of course you put them with lots of non-human units which removes the appeal of having a relatable yeoman force. There’s nothing remotely unique about black powder, swords, acting with discipline etc, all the things you mention. There’s multiple armies in AOS who specialise in that or in more powerful tactics and weapons already with a naturally stronger profile than humans to begin with. 

That’s the conundrum. Find something that is relatable which also can compete against extraordinary super human opposition without losing its humanity. What you propose isn’t going to fit that bill. It’s a far more complex problem than people are thinking it will be to make a human *army* for AOS. And that’s before even thinking about the aesthetic and visual design which is another biggie. 

[HorticulusTGA]

@Nos a new human faction doesn't necessarily means a new Freeguild faction. 

In the fluff, we have many humans armies that resisted the Age of Chaos by going full survivalist. They are now no more than barbaric tribes, and the vast majority has turned to Chaos. But they are still common, basic human, surviving amongst the horror of the ages. That's the whole point of the Darkoath archetypes. 

For the Order side of things, as posted above, good clues are that the common-yet-AOS-upgraded-and-redesigned human faction will be the Devoted Of Sigmar. And like the Daughters of Khaine or the Bonesplittas, they will compete with the other, stronger races / creatures with their faith and magical machines (and their number, I guess, unlike the Daughters Of Khaine).

Vast crusades of utterly devoted human fanatics, aided by magical machines and lots of priests (with varied powers), and coming in huge numbers, the Devoted Of Sigmar will be (if they got released 😛) a match for any other armies of the current meta, as will be the Darkoath barbarians.

Edited January 20, 2019 by HorticulusTGA

[TheGreatEnchanter]

6 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Don't play a game where you "detest" 90% of it. The new factions are the ones here to stay, even if old models get soup tomes they won't be supported forever.

I appreciate that this forum is a place for AoS positivity, but surely I’m allowed to say I like the system but hate the lore without being told to not play a game?  

[Blightzkrieg]

The Imperial Guard remain a popular 40k army despite suffering from the same issues that Sigmar humans would, and having an unusually bland design for the setting. I don't think Sigmar humans would be anymore out of place than that.

That said, a human release isn't quite as sexy as a night goblin or sea elf release, even though it might have a fairly broad appeal.  It doesn't seem to be a priority. Also due to the heavy old world focus in the current human designs, I would think they'd require a major release, which hasn't been rumored at all in the next year. Maybe at the very tail end.

[Ragnar Alpaca]

2 hours ago, Nos said:

It has a foundation. An age of Myth and Legend, Gods fighting for supremacy  using armies fashioned in their own image.

Warhammer had a foundation of humanity and apocalypse. It was always the End Times. They boxed themselves in with that. They’re not going to do it again. Not only that but they would be fools to try. Warhammer has 30 years of pedigree. There’s no way they could equal what it did in respect to what it’s flavour and character was. 

Humans are basically just in AOS to provide audience perspective. But basically they’re just observers. They get killed or they go mad or they fight alongside other factions or whatever but unlike in Warhammer they are far from being key players. The driving force in AOS are the deities themselves and they have specific avatars in the form of their armies that drive events. Humans are a species who co-exist in the world but that’s all they are. 

Question-how do you make a human  AOS faction fit? Black Powder was a big reason for human ascendency in Warhammer but in AOS it’s not anything special. Basically in a world run by Gods and monsters humans are just going to get annihilated by everything. Unless of course you make them Super Human, but A) they already have those and B) the whole argument as to why you need a human faction in the first place dies as soon as they’re not human anymore. Or conversely the Stormcast are obsolete if regular joes can defend their own lands and wage their own wars competently.

I’d love to see what aesthetic they came up with but the army of a relatable faction in a world of hyper fantasy and legend is fundamentally contradictory.

 

The Imperial Guard disagrees

[novakai]

well it only because their detachment is the cheapest in the game currently that every imperial army are begrudgingly have to use them in their list  hence why people complain about soup in 40k. it also the most efficient way to play Imperial knight is to have Imperial guard their for the CP fest, if they weren't considered such a necessity to play the game that they have to shoehorn into every army, they may not be as popular.

[Nos]

42 minutes ago, Ragnar Alpaca said:

The Imperial Guard disagrees

The Imperial Guard occupy a completely different universes with a completely different tone. They work for the same reason the Empire worked in the Old World. Humanity is the starting point for both those fictions, in which the survival of humanity against a multitude of threats is the main story. Humanity prevails or at least preserves it's existence through faith and courage and ingenuity but also through dictatorial theocratic coercion.

That's not humanity in Age of Sigmar. The humans n that scenario lost, in the end, their qualities were not sufficient, they were overwhelmed by the forces which now dicate the Age of Sigmar. It's a new epoch in which humans are no longer the bulwark against entropy, The courage and faith of the humanity who showed those qualities has been recognised in the form of their ressurection as Stormcast. They are the essence of what is best in humanity and they are it's best hope.  The Stormcast exist precisely because the best of Humanity is not enough. 

The closest Warhammer analogue for AOS is pre Heresy and the Emperor. Mutiple relams and worlds with different inhabitants, creatures, ecosystems etc. The Emperor arrives but he places his faith in the Primarchs, superhumans, who then create legions of Super Humans in their own image, because humanity is too weak to fight for itself. 

It's not just about Humans being around in this crazy world of monsters etc. If that's all it was then sure Humans fit fine n AOS. But the problem of humanity persisting as a major protagonist within the Mortal Realms is that it fundamentally contradiction the lore up to this point in which humanity has been decisively proven to be inadequate against the forces of the other races in the Mortal Realms. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Nos

[Yoshiya]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

I wonder are they just going to be like a Stormcast in training faction

it be like go devote yourself to Sigmar, be zealots and fight without care of your own life, when you eventually die if your fate is strong you become a Stormcast

Ooh, this could be an interesting story actually. Humans have now come to live in a world where death isn't the end, they don't need to be afraid of Nagash if they just fight valiantly and get resurrected as a Stormcast. In a world where people are willing to turn to chaos for power this must be a highly tempting offer, all the strength with none of the eternal damnation.

Armies start mustering around the realms, knowing even if they fail, they'll be back stronger than ever to get revenge. They march fearlessly into Chaos hordes, rampaging Waaghs and legions of undead, falling by the hundreds. Little do they know, the Anvil of Apotheosis is broken, the salvation they seek is unattainable and death means walking into Nagashs open arms. Sigmar is forced to watch on as the very inspiration and hope he sought to bring backfires, whilst his Stormcast scramble to find a solution.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Yoshiya
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[Overread]

@Nos I think you're reading way too far into the lore with a specific lean against humans. Don't forget the Dwarves got beaten long before humanity fell to Chaos. Come the end time setting Dwarves are heavily on the way out and are a fallen race by and large (I've been reading the old Gotrek novels so yeah dwarves are very much a failing old race). Humans lasted far longer - however dwarf, human, elf, tree - they ALL feel when Chaos tore the old world apart. None were able to withstand it and all fell. 

 

Stormcast are the extreme reaction, but they are not the be-all and end all. They have their own failings and issues. 

Plus don't forget your average aelf is not much more durable than the average human. Aelves and Dwarves are not godly in power and are flesh and blood just like a human; their only real bonus is in being able to naturally live a lot longer. Humans often relied on population - faster breeding and also generally being able to work with stuff like technology and magic at the same time (Aelves and Dwarves focusing on one or the other).

Honestly look at Skaven - 90% of their forces are fearful ratmen who die in DROVES and who basically are just sort of nasty and easy to kill. If they can survive then surely humans can too.

 

We won't lose humans - we will get 1 or more human factions in the AoS setting and they will work. They will have features that let them rise up to meet the challenge of the current age of Chaos. Be it through machines, magic, grit, population, divine intervention etc... 

Heck in the lore they already fit - we already have them all over the place. The only place we don't have them is with a Battletome. 

[ZealousJ]

I entirely agree that the setting really needs some fairly relatable human factions. It's always been a big appeal of these sorts of games for certain parts of the fan base, myself included. As much as I live some of the more fantastical players in the setting, I find it much more enjoyable playing those which a more relatable - more human.

I dont think it's too difficult to create such a faction (though I admit it's not easy) that fits the mortal realms. There are lots of lite fluff nuggets dotted around the place that suggests this the less physically imposing, magically talented mortals live.

What I'd particularly like to see, and have been hopeful for for some time, is a spread of humans across the grand alliances. Perhaps one faction each for death, order, and chaos, to suggest the different ways in which humans adapted to survive the age of chaos. Darkoath seem to be a movement in that direction for chaos and draw on a really deep fantasy aesthetic. I'd be really interested in seeing a mortal death army that expands on how those loyal to nagash live their lives. Given how the fluff describes the stormcast as a strikeforce that takes ground and waits for the free peoples to hold it, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a mixed aelf, dujardin, and human faction rolled together to represent the mortal armies loyal to sigmar. I'm imagining something similar the the alliance in warcraft 3 cranked up a fair bit. That said, theres room for a more unusual mortal order army 

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, Nos said:

That's not humanity in Age of Sigmar. The humans n that scenario lost, in the end, their qualities were not sufficient, they were overwhelmed by the forces which now dicate the Age of Sigmar. It's a new epoch in which humans are no longer the bulwark against entropy, The courage and faith of the humanity who showed those qualities has been recognised in the form of their ressurection as Stormcast. They are the essence of what is best in humanity and they are it's best hope.  The Stormcast exist precisely because the best of Humanity is not enough. 

The closest Warhammer analogue for AOS is pre Heresy and the Emperor. Mutiple relams and worlds with different inhabitants, creatures, ecosystems etc. The Emperor arrives but he places his faith in the Primarchs, superhumans, who then create legions of Super Humans in their own image, because humanity is too weak to fight for itself. 

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I've the feeling that all of this arguments are just people playing with semantics. 

Imho, Free people will become the Imperial Guard of AoS, and it could be awesome ( and remember that we can have a lot more weird and funny things than IG btw). Lore will be diferent, the feeling too...but that's not what we are talking about.

[Overread]

I think once the main stories shift away from the god-battles a bit and focus on the people in the stories we might well see a lot of shifting perspectives. Right now much of the big lore events are at the GOD end of the scale; which honestly leaves little room to develop characters for some factions because by the time most gods complete a campaign many of the more mortal creatures are generations old. 

AoS started with the gods, but I think we'll steadily see characters and mortals rise up and the time advance slow down some. I think tihs has to happen for GW to get a handle on the lore and background and to build up character franchises. You need your Gotreks and your Gaunts Ghosts and such to be the backbone of your lore.

[novakai]

15 minutes ago, Overread said:

 

Honestly look at Skaven - 90% of their forces are fearful ratmen who die in DROVES and who basically are just sort of nasty and easy to kill. If they can survive then surely humans can too.

 

Well their lore is that their so many of them that it be impossible to wipe them out completely, it kind of an written plot armor that they don't go extinct. 

Are you sure Gortrek won't ascend to become a god in the future, or a god right now?

Edited January 20, 2019 by novakai

[Overread]

2 minutes ago, novakai said:

Well their lore is that their so many of them that it be impossible to wipe them out completely, it kind of an written plot armor that they don't go extinct. 

Are you sure Gortrek won't ascend to become a god in the future, or a god right now?

He might and he might not. The thing is Gods tend to operate at different time scales and can wipe out interest in mundane regular troops - whilst your average gamer is more vested in the lore of the peoples they play as. Basically a god in teh game is a single model (if that) whilst a faction is a whole race of peoples and armies and such. The peoples are more interesting than the gods in terms of lore and worldbuilding by and large. 

[Nos]

4 minutes ago, Overread said:

He might and he might not. The thing is Gods tend to operate at different time scales and can wipe out interest in mundane regular troops - whilst your average gamer is more vested in the lore of the peoples they play as. Basically a god in teh game is a single model (if that) whilst a faction is a whole race of peoples and armies and such. The peoples are more interesting than the gods in terms of lore and worldbuilding by and large. 

Orcs have been popular for decades and they have no depth what so ever. They're whimsical hooligans who live to fight. That's it. 

Age of Sigmar is very popular and it's full of non-human factions tied to the pantheisitc narrative. People seem to be enjoying them plenty. 

[ZealousJ]

I realised my post above is... muddled. That's posting mid child care for you 

I suspect we'll get a free peoples army rather than free guild. I fully expect it will act as a general representation of free peoples rather than a definitive one, what with the mortal realms being so varied and strange. Much in the same way as the Genestealer cults model range is themed around mining colonies yet the fluff goes to great length to insist this is not the only representation.

I suspect we will get a mixed alliance of the mortal races, each fulfilling a broad role and each ramped up in their fantasy appearance.

I feel the humans are probably the most difficult to predict but I'd very much expect a shift from the old empire style which is very specific to the old setting. I'd also expect a shift to larger bases ala kairic acolytes and for them to make up the bulk of the battle line.

I also feel the ironweld arsenal will get an overhaul and be combined into this faction. There are quite a few mentions of them in the fluff, including recent army books, and the current range is a hodgepodge of models that do not mesh with the aesthetic of AoS. I'd expect a couple of large extremely powerful, over the top, and possibly storm powered, war machines manned by duardin.

In regard to humans having failed and not being able to hold up against the other forces in AoS credibly, I dont really see that myself. Theres nothing particularly overpowered about several of the factions other than access to powerful magic, specific technologies, or having the sponsorship of a God or demi God, all of which the free peoples can claim too.

 

[Saxon]

37 minutes ago, ZealousJ said:

In regard to humans having failed and not being able to hold up against the other forces in AoS credibly, I dont really see that myself. Theres nothing particularly overpowered about several of the factions other than access to powerful magic, specific technologies, or having the sponsorship of a God or demi God, all of which the free peoples can claim too.

 

I disagree. I have 3k points worth of updated free guild and have to play as grand order alliance to really stand a chance against decent armies with a battletome. The major reason is just the predicable nature of the humans. Blob army relying on guns and numbers. Easy to defeat - pick off gunners with spells to reduce their to hit bonuses and kill the general and the humans fold like a deck of cards.