The Rumour Thread

[alghero81]

No one says Legions are weak

Before Slaanesh they were often top tables and even now they can get good spots. It’s just as @Overread mentioned anything is open bet with them. Ossiarch does give a bad precedent but they could restyled in the near future as a grand alliance after another Death book.

”Problem” of Legions and Cities is that their models are named instead of using keywords. So even if they create a Dispossesed army, Cities may not benefit of them. Heck even existing but renamed models could potentially not benefit Cities at all!

About new armies we know for sure there are at least 4 Gods planning something, then if this means new armies we don’t know. But Malerion, Teclis, Tyrion and Grungni are out there and they still have a story to tell.

And then they surprise us bringing out Matlann and Kurnoth spirit. So really who knows the future of AoS?

[sandlemad]

2 hours ago, alghero81 said:

In the end time will tell and the new warband announced tomorrow for WU may give us some interesting hints...

Ooh, where did this come from? Will it be an actual new warband or a trailer for Snarlfang's Rippas? We already know from the leaked release sheet that they're due out soon.

Edited November 9, 2019 by sandlemad

[alghero81]

3 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@alghero81

Yeah, that's what I meant. So essentially the Spirit Torment would become a unit champion to the Chainghast. I think it could work. 

 

With the inevitable vampire faction coming I could see Deathrattle getting folded into them as their fodder/batteling troops with more elite spots reserved for Vamps and other things. This would be just fine with me. 

I really hope bonereapers 🤮 aren't the basic skeleton replacement...

 

On another note, Destro is the only alliance to jot receive a totally new army now, yeah?

Technically Chaos are all left overs from WFB. If at all Destruction split Orcs and Goblins to reunite them under two different banners. But Ironjawz are new to AoS, no?

You could have a unit of spirit torment of 3 using the spirit torment as champion, they are already sold in one box. Could work but now we are definitely away from rumours

[alghero81]

3 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

Ooh, where did this come from? Will it be an actual new warband or a trailer for Snarlfang's Rippas? We already know from the leaked release sheet that they're due out soon.

From the sheet we known they are coming out to preorder next week so in the following days we should know more about them and which allegiance they take in AoS. At least at launch 

[sandlemad]

35 minutes ago, alghero81 said:

From the sheet we known they are coming out to preorder next week so in the following days we should know more about them and which allegiance they take in AoS. At least at launch 

Got it, a preorder preview rather than a reveal of a new-new warband. The keywords could well be a hint - it was definitely the case with the Moonclan warband giving away prospective names and keywords - but equally whatever appears on their warscroll could simply be a stand-in (which is one possibility for the Kurnothi) or even a kind of dead end (like some of the old Silver Tower models).

[madmac]

51 minutes ago, alghero81 said:

No one says Legions are weak

Before Slaanesh they were often top tables and even now they can get good spots. It’s just as @Overread mentioned anything is open bet with them. Ossiarch does give a bad precedent but they could restyled in the near future as a grand alliance after another Death book.

”Problem” of Legions and Cities is that their models are named instead of using keywords. So even if they create a Dispossesed army, Cities may not benefit of them. Heck even existing but renamed models could potentially not benefit Cities at all!

About new armies we know for sure there are at least 4 Gods planning something, then if this means new armies we don’t know. But Malerion, Teclis, Tyrion and Grungni are out there and they still have a story to tell.

And then they surprise us bringing out Matlann and Kurnoth spirit. So really who knows the future of AoS?

Agreed on Cities. It's a cool book, I like it alot, but it was pretty clearly designed to make a specific range of models playable and not much else.  The roster as you mentioned is a defined unit list, not based on keywords, whereas all the unit/command abilities trigger only on the very specific keywords tied to the dozen or so tiny subfactions in the book. Outside of the now homeless Shadow Warriors being thrown into Shadowblades, there was absolutely no attempt made to collapse any of the subfaction madness into streamlined subfactions. Gyrocoptors and Cogsmiths are still part of Ironweld Arsenal and not Dispossessed, Dark Aelves are still split across 4 subfactions, ect.

It's just not a book that reads like it was designed to be anything but a short-term stopgap.

[Rogue Explorator]

3 minutes ago, alghero81 said:

No one says Legions are weak

Before Slaanesh they were often top tables and even now they can get good spots. It’s just as @Overread mentioned anything is open bet with them. Ossiarch does give a bad precedent but they could restyled in the near future as a grand alliance after another Death book.

”Problem” of Legions and Cities is that their models are named instead of using keywords. So even if they create a Dispossesed army, Cities may not benefit of them. Heck even existing but renamed models could potentially not benefit Cities at all!

About new armies we know for sure there are at least 4 Gods planning something, then if this means new armies we don’t know. But Malerion, Teclis, Tyrion and Grungni are out there and they still have a story to tell.

And then they surprise us bringing out Matlann and Kurnoth spirit. So really who knows the future of AoS?

I Don't think we will see an army build around Grungni anytime soon, if ever. The common assumption seems to be that like the other gods he has his own plot to bring in a superior force according to his vision. The thing is, he already did that, just in a completely different way from the others, when he abandoned the Duradin of the Realms to fend for themselves which resulted in the Kharadron. By my reading, it seems pretty clear they actually are his intended outcome, a culture of self-reliant Dwarves who no longer show up on his doorstep begging for daddy to save them all the time (it's all very Ayn Rand really). They don't particular venerate Grugni and they are not under his command, but they are the materialization of his vision in the mortal Realms and I think should be viewed as "his" army in AoS just as much the Slyvaneth are Alielle's and the Fyreslayers are Grimnir.

For light and dark aelves, I still hold on to my theory that they may actually turn out to be a part of the same faction. Whenever they show up a little in the lore I get that impression that they, just like Tyrion to Malerion, just as Hysh to Ulglu, are two sides of the same coin. The way GW has been doing Dark and High Elves in the past, as well as Drukari and Asuryani in 40k, there are a lot of parallels in the lines, so much that one force would have a lot of units that are almost copies of each other. Unless there's a massive shakeup of the lore with their release, Tyrion and Malerion aren't even remotely opposed to each other in AoS, quite the opposite, they seem to be working closely with each other, though maybe not much trustingly. And we still don't know much about those aelves in the Realms of Shadow and Light who aren't remade souls. Light and Dark mixed together may seem a bit off, but if the more mundane aelves alongside Teclis represent the twilight in between, sort of in the style of the Mistweaver Sai, I could see it working quite well.

It would also solve the dilemma of having two aelven forces in the pipeline that are so intertwined, so important to the lore and propably both equally long awaited. Make them big releases and they need to be spaced out, which would be unpopular and difficult to tackle in the lore. Drop them at the same time, and they cann't both be really big, leaving no one particularly happy and really robbing them of their momentum.

 

So all in all, I think it is possible there will only be only one all new army for GA:Order in the forseeable future.

 

Chaos will actually be completely covered with the release of Slaves to Darkness likely brushing out the last few stragglers. There are some avenues to expand the GA either by splitting Skaven again, reviving something old like Fimir or Chaos Dwarves or doing something completely out of the left field, but I don't think we'll see anything like that for quite a long time.

 

Death is starting to look rather complete as far as number of armies goes. It seems given that Soulblight will get a BT and some new stuff eventually. I think they will want to focus on Vampires for that and that at this point reincluding any of Necromancer, Skeletons or Zombies under them would be a poor move, essentially making them a diminished version of old Vampire Counts/Legions of Nagash. Necromancers with the minion type Undead have been called "Necromantic Hosts" a few times in AoS 2.0 and I think they could make a pretty decent force, somewhat ramshackle and more independent thanks to being lead by the somewhat still living, but more cunning and organized than Flesheaters. But propably something that could be delayed for quite some time untill the time is right for such an "unimportant", just as Genestealer Cults seem to have fit a nerve when they finally came.

 

So all in all, I think Destruction is the place to look at for new stuff and definitely the GA in the worst shape, bar Gloomspite. With the only remaining Orcs split between two factions in competition with FEC for tinyiest model range around, theoretically one army for no, but with little visual cohesion. Right now that GA has only three BTs and armies, with at least one seeming like an obvious soup placeholder. I also still think there is still some place for a more down to earth Orcs and Goblins to contrast against Ironjawz, Gloomspite and Bonesplittaz, not to forget they are still around in the lore, though they may end up looking very different from the removed Gitmob and Greenskinz kits. On the other hand I think they will maintain being the smallest and least pushed GA.

Orks in 40k seems to suffer from a lot of problems, being extremely popular in theory, but not really seeing much play or support. I'm afraid Destruction may be falling by and large into similar traps, but hope I'm wrong. My suspicion is that more people want them as a force to play against rather then as one they themselves play and collect, though I admittedly can't back that up by anything but my own bias.

[alghero81]

54 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

With the only remaining Orcs split between two factions in competition with FEC for tinyiest model range around, theoretically one army for no, but with little visual cohesion.

Visual cohesion is a really subjective matter because then even Legions would have the same issues having chainrasps next to zombies... fact is that today Orruks have 20 models including FW models.

Interesting outside of Everchosen the faction with the least amount of warscrolls is indeed the Kharadron and in their upcoming book will see soon if Grungni is out and about doing something or not.

For amount of distinct boxes FEC wins hand down with only 5 distinct boxes followed by DoK with 6... 

[Turin Turambar]

1 hour ago, Rogue Explorator said:

For light and dark aelves, I still hold on to my theory that they may actually turn out to be a part of the same faction. Whenever they show up a little in the lore I get that impression that they, just like Tyrion to Malerion, just as Hysh to Ulglu, are two sides of the same coin. The way GW has been doing Dark and High Elves in the past, as well as Drukari and Asuryani in 40k, there are a lot of parallels in the lines, so much that one force would have a lot of units that are almost copies of each other. Unless there's a massive shakeup of the lore with their release, Tyrion and Malerion aren't even remotely opposed to each other in AoS, quite the opposite, they seem to be working closely with each other, though maybe not much trustingly. And we still don't know much about those aelves in the Realms of Shadow and Light who aren't remade souls. Light and Dark mixed together may seem a bit off, but if the more mundane aelves alongside Teclis represent the twilight in between, sort of in the style of the Mistweaver Sai, I could see it working quite well.

It would also solve the dilemma of having two aelven forces in the pipeline that are so intertwined, so important to the lore and propably both equally long awaited. Make them big releases and they need to be spaced out, which would be unpopular and difficult to tackle in the lore. Drop them at the same time, and they cann't both be really big, leaving no one particularly happy and really robbing them of their momentum.

 

So all in all, I think it is possible there will only be only one all new army for GA:Order in the forseeable future.

I still think you are delusional. 2 armies that are never mentioned together in the lore (only their creators) and are (as you admit yourself) opposites of each other. come from 2 different realms, and are 2 different ideas of what elves should be. 

why would GW limit themselves in terms of profit (1 tome instead of 2, for the same amount of work)

if they make them 2 separate tomes, they are going to be selling more books and more kits (as people will need more of the individual style to make an army)

and they can sell more faction terrain and endless spells. speaking of, what would 2 opposite factions from 2 opposite worlds have as faction terrain? and you would end up with an awkward mixture of endless spells.

I neither want this (as it means that we would get 2 half backed subfactions, with some convoluted lore to get them to make sense together) with weird mixed armies on the table top (when they are fighting completely different wars and are so far never shown together) [as there will be not enough kits to play a pure faction in the beginning and be competitive)

 

[Rogue Explorator]

1 hour ago, Turin Turambar said:

I still think you are delusional. 2 armies that are never mentioned together in the lore (only their creators) and are (as you admit yourself) opposites of each other. come from 2 different realms, and are 2 different ideas of what elves should be. 

why would GW limit themselves in terms of profit (1 tome instead of 2, for the same amount of work)

if they make them 2 separate tomes, they are going to be selling more books and more kits (as people will need more of the individual style to make an army)

and they can sell more faction terrain and endless spells. speaking of, what would 2 opposite factions from 2 opposite worlds have as faction terrain? and you would end up with an awkward mixture of endless spells.

I neither want this (as it means that we would get 2 half backed subfactions, with some convoluted lore to get them to make sense together) with weird mixed armies on the table top (when they are fighting completely different wars and are so far never shown together) [as there will be not enough kits to play a pure faction in the beginning and be competitive)

 

Delusional is a bit harsh, isn't it?

They have never even been called armies so far. For now, the lore has only told us Malerion and Tyrion created their own kin, nothing about their relationship to each other. And light and dark are not necessarily opposites, particularly in AoS where the Realms of Light and Shadow are heavily intertwined and their respective gods arguably work more closely with each other than any other gods of the Realm in the current age.

You seem to go from the assumption that there'd be a direct continuation of the dynamic between high elves and dark elves in WHFB, despite that dynamic having already been dissolved during the endtimes and never given any importance in AoS. Wether I'm right or wrong about there being only one more army (I consider it just a theory myself, as written in the quoted post), I think you may end up quite disappointed either way if you expect a redo of High and Dark Elves. They are gone, whatever comes now will most likely both be GA:Order on both sides and will not have the same enmity and I think only as tenuous a connection to Ulthuan and Naggarythe as Bonereapers have to Kemri.

 

I don't really have a horse in this race, I'm a Death and Chaos boy at heart and it will be a long time before I ever pick up an aelven army. It's just something I think is possible from the information we have been given in AoS so far.

[Aelfric]

6 hours ago, alghero81 said:

@Aelfric Don’t get me wrong I liked every single AoS 2.0 battletome and I’m happy the direction they are going but my suspicion, entirely based on Legions approach, is that some soups were only placeholders not destined to live indefinitely. Then time will tell which direction they will follow but I don’t see Beasts of Chaos getting more than the new warband.

A clear temporarily soup tome is Orruks. They left Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz distinct enough to get expanded individually in future. While Ogors do not seem to be split anytime soon.

I guess the next soup battletome to give some hints will be Gitz. To me it’s perfect but if they expand on any of those sub-themes they may detract models from the main tome or price them in a way they are not more viable. 

Nagash at 880 in Legions is too much...

In the end time will tell and the new warband announced tomorrow for WU may give us some interesting hints...

I guess, at the end of the day, the longevity of these collective Battletomes will be decided by their popularity and model sales.  I hope that the Battletomes produced this year are not fiddled with for at least a couple of years, beyond points changes ( well, maybe Slaanesh  ).  Soon every faction will have a book, which will be a good stable place for the game, both in terms of play and lore-wise, to be and to grow from.

[Barkanaut]

3 hours ago, Rogue Explorator said:

I Don't think we will see an army build around Grungni anytime soon, if ever. The common assumption seems to be that like the other gods he has his own plot to bring in a superior force according to his vision. The thing is, he already did that, just in a completely different way from the others, when he abandoned the Duradin of the Realms to fend for themselves which resulted in the Kharadron. By my reading, it seems pretty clear they actually are his intended outcome, a culture of self-reliant Dwarves who no longer show up on his doorstep begging for daddy to save them all the time (it's all very Ayn Rand really). They don't particular venerate Grugni and they are not under his command, but they are the materialization of his vision in the mortal Realms and I think should be viewed as "his" army in AoS just as much the Slyvaneth are Alielle's and the Fyreslayers are Grimnir.

For light and dark aelves, I still hold on to my theory that they may actually turn out to be a part of the same faction. Whenever they show up a little in the lore I get that impression that they, just like Tyrion to Malerion, just as Hysh to Ulglu, are two sides of the same coin. The way GW has been doing Dark and High Elves in the past, as well as Drukari and Asuryani in 40k, there are a lot of parallels in the lines, so much that one force would have a lot of units that are almost copies of each other. Unless there's a massive shakeup of the lore with their release, Tyrion and Malerion aren't even remotely opposed to each other in AoS, quite the opposite, they seem to be working closely with each other, though maybe not much trustingly. And we still don't know much about those aelves in the Realms of Shadow and Light who aren't remade souls. Light and Dark mixed together may seem a bit off, but if the more mundane aelves alongside Teclis represent the twilight in between, sort of in the style of the Mistweaver Sai, I could see it working quite well.

It would also solve the dilemma of having two aelven forces in the pipeline that are so intertwined, so important to the lore and propably both equally long awaited. Make them big releases and they need to be spaced out, which would be unpopular and difficult to tackle in the lore. Drop them at the same time, and they cann't both be really big, leaving no one particularly happy and really robbing them of their momentum.

 

So all in all, I think it is possible there will only be only one all new army for GA:Order in the forseeable future.

 

Chaos will actually be completely covered with the release of Slaves to Darkness likely brushing out the last few stragglers. There are some avenues to expand the GA either by splitting Skaven again, reviving something old like Fimir or Chaos Dwarves or doing something completely out of the left field, but I don't think we'll see anything like that for quite a long time.

 

Death is starting to look rather complete as far as number of armies goes. It seems given that Soulblight will get a BT and some new stuff eventually. I think they will want to focus on Vampires for that and that at this point reincluding any of Necromancer, Skeletons or Zombies under them would be a poor move, essentially making them a diminished version of old Vampire Counts/Legions of Nagash. Necromancers with the minion type Undead have been called "Necromantic Hosts" a few times in AoS 2.0 and I think they could make a pretty decent force, somewhat ramshackle and more independent thanks to being lead by the somewhat still living, but more cunning and organized than Flesheaters. But propably something that could be delayed for quite some time untill the time is right for such an "unimportant", just as Genestealer Cults seem to have fit a nerve when they finally came.

 

So all in all, I think Destruction is the place to look at for new stuff and definitely the GA in the worst shape, bar Gloomspite. With the only remaining Orcs split between two factions in competition with FEC for tinyiest model range around, theoretically one army for no, but with little visual cohesion. Right now that GA has only three BTs and armies, with at least one seeming like an obvious soup placeholder. I also still think there is still some place for a more down to earth Orcs and Goblins to contrast against Ironjawz, Gloomspite and Bonesplittaz, not to forget they are still around in the lore, though they may end up looking very different from the removed Gitmob and Greenskinz kits. On the other hand I think they will maintain being the smallest and least pushed GA.

Orks in 40k seems to suffer from a lot of problems, being extremely popular in theory, but not really seeing much play or support. I'm afraid Destruction may be falling by and large into similar traps, but hope I'm wrong. My suspicion is that more people want them as a force to play against rather then as one they themselves play and collect, though I admittedly can't back that up by anything but my own bias.

I love Gloomspite and hope Mawtribes gets a big model release in its future like way future. The new orks are terrible though and the two factions couldn't look any different and mish mash if they tried. 

Destruction is too limited by unga bunga stuff. I have said this many times there are many types of destruction factions they could do if they introduced another new god to compete with Gorka Morka. We need a more intelligent faction focused on destruction. I think a release of a giant army that is acctually trying to destroy everyone else and remake their Empire would be great. They could worship a new god of destruction or gorka morka. Also there are also ways to introduce godless destruction factions. The best way to think of this is Tyranid style hivemind faction (that can ally with other forces of destructon and has personality). 

Of all the factions I feel like Destruction has some serious untapped potential and its being too limited by Gorka Morka. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Barkanaut

[Barkanaut]

23 hours ago, Mutton said:

My theory based on nothing is that Adepticon will be either where we first see the alleged "light" or "shadow" elves, OR it'll be the final 2.0 battletome update, ending with Seraphon, including a handful of redesigned kits for their crustier looking models.

It'll be interesting to see how the army release schedule proceeds. The biggest community reactions and hype come from brand new army reveals, but it's untenable to keep up forever. We already have 22-ish factions---how many more can they realistically add to their production? I wonder if we'll start seeing smaller "expansions" for all of the existing armies instead.

Kharadron Overlords need help so bad. After sucking this bad for this long we better have a hell of an update coming with a few new models and a terrain piece. 

[alghero81]

48 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I guess, at the end of the day, the longevity of these collective Battletomes will be decided by their popularity and model sales.  I hope that the Battletomes produced this year are not fiddled with for at least a couple of years, beyond points changes ( well, maybe Slaanesh  ).  Soon every faction will have a book, which will be a good stable place for the game, both in terms of play and lore-wise, to be and to grow from.

Not from this year but Nighthaunt desperately need some love  not soon, maybe not through a battletome, but I think every single battletome after them was better...

[Barkanaut]

Ha Ha. No. Back of the line and wait like the rest of us had to. 

[Aelfric]

Just now, alghero81 said:

Not from this year but Nighthaunt desperately need some love  not soon, maybe not through a battletome, but I think every single battletome after them was better...

Yea, I agree; Nighthaunt is in a weird spot - they fell between two stools, as it were.  I've played quite a few games against Nighthaunt, but as I was playing Troggoths I reckon it was fairly even  

[Barbossal]

2 hours ago, alghero81 said:

Not from this year but Nighthaunt desperately need some love  not soon, maybe not through a battletome, but I think every single battletome after them was better...

Legion of Grief would like a word with you. Any army that can resurrect a unit of 30 Bladegheists for 1 CP is doing just fine...

[JackStreicher]

9 minutes ago, Barbossal said:

Legion of Grief would like a word with you. Any army that can resurrect a unit of 30 Bladegheists for 1 CP is doing just fine...

eh, Nighthaunt heroes just die too fast. "Just" kill the General and the summoning stops

[Indecisive]

LoN being a placeholder died when LoG became a thing as far as I'm concerned.
I think vampires are fine in LoN, need a refresh though that holds faithful to how they've been. Splintering into their own faction would merit becoming something like Sanguinarch Exsanguinators or something.

Nighthaunt suffer from being a book below par for the 2.0 range.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Indecisive

[Neffelo]

3 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Yea, I agree; Nighthaunt is in a weird spot - they fell between two stools, as it were.  I've played quite a few games against Nighthaunt, but as I was playing Troggoths I reckon it was fairly even  

The Nighthaunt book really needs a rewrite. It feels like it was written way before the other 2.0 tomes, and is really inconsitant. It also has awful internal and external balance.

1 hour ago, Barbossal said:

Legion of Grief would like a word with you. Any army that can resurrect a unit of 30 Bladegheists for 1 CP is doing just fine...

Legion of Grief and Nighthaunt are not the same.  This is really part of the problem, and I wish Nighthaunt would be it's own tome like Ossiarch. Having to balance the Nighthaunt units across three tomes is one of the reasons the balance is so bad. Grimghast reapers were fine in Nighthaunt, it was Legions that abused them. Yet, they still got hit by the nerfbat. 

[Barbossal]

15 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

The Nighthaunt book really needs a rewrite. It feels like it was written way before the other 2.0 tomes, and is really inconsitant. It also has awful internal and external balance.

I actually feel like LoN is the one that needs the update. Fixing the Nighthaunt abuses in that tome would make it easier to give Nighthaunt appropriate point values.

[Neffelo]

31 minutes ago, Barbossal said:

I actually feel like LoN is the one that needs the update. Fixing the Nighthaunt abuses in that tome would make it easier to give Nighthaunt appropriate point values.

Points values are really only a band aid with Nightahunt right now. It's also got a myriad of issues across it's warscrolls.  The army really needs a pretty huge re write across the board.

Fixing LoN may solve one problem, but then we still have the issue with LoG.  Nighthaunt is always going to suffer until it is it's own contained tome, imo. 

[alghero81]

2 hours ago, Barbossal said:

Legion of Grief would like a word with you. Any army that can resurrect a unit of 30 Bladegheists for 1 CP is doing just fine...

Legion of Grief makes many Nighthaunt units more viable but still suffers a lot as you lose warscroll battalions, artifacts, spell variety and vampires for the graveyards that can be stopped by one single miniature over them or by killing all squishy heroes. I also guess you mean Grimghasts as Bladegheists are limited to 20. Either case they move 8”, they are nice models but depending how fast they are you may not have a general near the right graveyard and the only trick today is to use the Dreadblade. That means giving up Lady Olynder by the way that is in my opinion one of the best Nighthaunt heroes. And to stop the Dreadblade from pulling tricks you just need to engage him...

[HollowHills]

Idoneth need a new tome and endless spells. 

[alghero81]

4 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

Points values are really only a band aid with Nightahunt right now. It's also got a myriad of issues across it's warscrolls.  The army really needs a pretty huge re write across the board.

Fixing LoN may solve one problem, but then we still have the issue with LoG.  Nighthaunt is always going to suffer until it is it's own contained tome, imo. 

This and for the point cost they started with the Terrorgheist and the Royal Terrorgheist, same model different name depending on the allegiance. Put the Legion Grimghast to 500 point system but leave decently priced the pure Grimghast if that’s the problem (was it ever as bad as Hag Nar or Slaanesh? Bah). LoG will always be in par with Nighthaunt cause they lose battalions, spells, etc. for really specific tricks. The day Nighthaunt will be rewritten decently, LoG will be a memory.