How many editions until...

[amysrevenge]

How many editions until we get rid of the old fantasy term "to wound" and call it what it actually is, "to damage"?  You know, that roll you make to see if your successful hit deals damage or not?  The one that isn't directly related to the mechanism whereby damage becomes wounds?  That one.

I'd love to see it get fixed in AoS3.  Actually, I'd love to see it fixed tomorrow with a giant FAQ/errata.  But I'm not holding my breath.

[amysrevenge]

I should add, I was ELATED about the fix to movement, with the explicit "normal move" added to the game mechanics.

[Melcavuk]

I agree the terms are very closely aligned which can cause issues, I'd go with something along the lines of:

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Inflict damage
Which reduced Hit Points. (or health, or something etc)

That way we avoid the rolling to wound, which they then can save, which inflicts wounds, equal to damage, but some after save rolls can then negate individually (as wounds) before finally going through to to remove from your wounds characteristics (so many different meanings of the term)

[amysrevenge]

Yeah there are a couple of ways to fix it.  Adding a third  term to accompany "damage" and "wound" could do it. 

But just renaming the line on the stat block from "to wound" to "to damage" would actually cover it - wounds don't even enter the equation until after all of the unit's attacks are finished and you convert the pile of unsaved damage into wounds, but each individual attack turns into damage as soon as its "to wound" roll is made.

[Retro]

I've always wondered why the save roll was last.

I think it should be something like:

Roll to hit
Roll to save
Roll to wound
Roll for damage/inflict damage per wound.

 

[Overread]

I think the save roll is last because mechanically its often got the least chance to succeed for the vast majority of models. So you place it last after two other, higher chance, rolls have been whittled down. Otherwise for regular troops you're not going to make all that many saves and then you've got a higher chance to wound right after. 

[JPjr]

49 minutes ago, Retro said:

I've always wondered why the save roll was last.

I think it should be something like:

Roll to hit
Roll to save
Roll to wound
Roll for damage/inflict damage per wound.

 

I can totally see the logic in your order BUT and it's a big but (so I cannot lie) I'd say that by having the save roll at the end it keeps the person on the ****** end of any beatdown active and involved to the end of the combat and increases the drama/tension, rather than them just being a spectator as their lovingly built and painted pieces of plastic get sent to the great recycling bin in the sky.

I know we're not talking a huge amount of difference but honestly I reckon from a games design POV and trying to keep people active even small things like that make a big difference.

 

[firebat]

About the same time as Elves, Goblins and Dwarfs also disappear I expect 😛

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, JPjr said:

I can totally see the logic in your order BUT and it's a big but (so I cannot lie) I'd say that by having the save roll at the end it keeps the person on the ****** end of any beatdown active and involved to the end of the combat and increases the drama/tension, rather than them just being a spectator as their lovingly built and painted pieces of plastic get sent to the great recycling bin in the sky.

This is one of the part that I really liked about Malifaux's ruleset.  Since every attack is an opposed duel that both players take part in and you actively take part in the defense of your models you can use resources to potentially swing defense in your favor if you really need something to live.  I that sort of system works best for keeping players engaged and feeling like they can do something.  But, I think you would have to do a whole lot of work to adapt something like that into an army-scale game rather than a skirmish game.  I never feel like a spectator in that game and that is usually one of the negative aspects of most wargames.

I think the AoS rules work fine for the game as it currently stands though.  If they were to change a part of the core rules then I would prefer to see the rounds become full alternate-activation turns rather than the hybrid I-go-U-go that the game currently is.  But, that change would require a very large adjustment to the core rules and a full rework of all of point values and much of the allegiance/unit abilities.  So it is not something I would advocate doing now.  It is a fun alternate way to play the current game though if you don't mind having to deal with a few weird rule interactions and potential point imbalances.

[amysrevenge]

4 hours ago, Retro said:

I've always wondered why the save roll was last.

I think it should be something like:

Roll to hit
Roll to save
Roll to wound
Roll for damage/inflict damage per wound.

 

The problem of the wording is still there in your list too though.  Your "roll to wound" has nothing to do with wounds, it's to do with damage.  The damage turns into wounds, to compare against the Wounds characteristic of the target, only at the end.

 

The whole problem is using the word "wound" both for the "To Wound" statistic and for the "Wounds" statistic on the standard stat line.  You start in the realm of "wound", then go on to "damage", and then back to "wound" again.

 

To fix it, either the "To Wound" statistic needs to be renamed as "To Damage", or the Wounds statistic needs to be renamed to "hit points" or "health" or some such.

[gjnoronh]

3 hours ago, JPjr said:

I can totally see the logic in your order BUT and it's a big but (so I cannot lie) I'd say that by having the save roll at the end it keeps the person on the ****** end of any beatdown active and involved to the end of the combat and increases the drama/tension, rather than them just being a spectator as their lovingly built and painted pieces of plastic get sent to the great recycling bin in the sky.

I know we're not talking a huge amount of difference but honestly I reckon from a games design POV and trying to keep people active even small things like that make a big difference.

 

They have explicitly said that's the reasoning in past editions.

 

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, amysrevenge said:

The problem of the wording is still there in your list too though.  Your "roll to wound" has nothing to do with wounds, it's to do with damage.  The damage turns into wounds, to compare against the Wounds characteristic of the target, only at the end.

 

The whole problem is using the word "wound" both for the "To Wound" statistic and for the "Wounds" statistic on the standard stat line.  You start in the realm of "wound", then go on to "damage", and then back to "wound" again.

 

To fix it, either the "To Wound" statistic needs to be renamed as "To Damage", or the Wounds statistic needs to be renamed to "hit points" or "health" or some such.

I propose that we change the statistic name on the warscroll to be "ouchies". 

[amysrevenge]

Boo-boos

[Skabnoze]

5 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Boo-boos

But then they would get confused with the Nighthaunt.

[Lousy Beatnik]

In first edition Warhammer, it was called "to kill" 😀

[AaronWilson]

To be fair.. you are rolling to wound, because it's no damage until they save the armor save.. which is triggered by a wound roll.

[JackStreicher]

15 hours ago, firebat said:

About the same time as Elves, Goblins and Dwarfs also disappear I expect 😛

They already did „Aelves, Grotz and Duardin“

😜

[amysrevenge]

23 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

To be fair.. you are rolling to wound, because it's no damage until they save the armor save.. which is triggered by a wound roll.

To be unfair, it's not wounds until after saves are failed and you turn damage into wounds. Haha

[Lucio]

Is this really something people worry about? Really??

 

[amysrevenge]

It gives rise to every question about when saves happen, when effects that trigger on a save happen, when effects that trigger on unsaved wounds happen, when effects that trigger on a model being killed happen, all of it.

If the difference between wounds and damage was simple, nobody would have ever asked about how the Lord Castellant or Lord Arcanum healing effect works.

[AaronWilson]

Not going to lie I've played for 15 years and It's never crossed my mind