AoS 2 - Gloomspite Gitz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

3 hours ago, Skeekrit said:

 

Yes - 2 units of Squig Herd. They seemed to be very good and able to hold up the enemy. The -1 rend was welcome as well

The gargant points value is difficult to judge. The problem is they have the potential to go completely over the top, hit with everything, roll 18 attacks and do 6 wounds for a headbut... or they can fall over on the charge no-where near a character and injure your own army. If they get a small decrease in GHB19 I'll try them again, but it's difficult to see them being used regularly without a significant cost drop to (say) 120. Problem is explaining that to the one opponent a year where they go insane and kill his 500 point model!

I'll be exploring more with using Giants, but I think their base size is one of their advantages.  For 160 points they manage to consolidate a fair amount of offensive potential into a small footprint.  I think there are some shenanigans to be had by using Giants as a sort of reactionary tool that is mixed into your force in-between or even within other units.  

I am glad to see other people looking into the Squig Herd in this new book as well.  Most people seem to be quite taken with the Boingrot Bounders (understandable) and not giving much of a look to the Squig Herd.  The squig itself now has the same attack profile across the Squig Herd, Boingrots, and Hoppers and to me that makes the Squig Herd a very interesting unit given it's low cost.  They also simply built the Herder buffs into the core unit and so they now just inherently can reroll run & charges and so they can be a bit self-sufficient.  I think in most armies if you are using a big unit or two you will want the Boss on Giant Squig so that you can get his movement bonus, but aside from that they work pretty well on their own.  They also work quite well with Snufflers since they move at the same speed and won't out-distance the snufflers - which is the main problem with Bounders and Hoppers.

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

I always ask myself what points value would they have to be to be good...100, 120? I'm not sure.

It is a bit sad that with the Gloomspite book they did not really tweak the warscroll.  I don't think the issue that most people have with the giant can be solved with cost.  I'm not going to spend a while about the falling down rule.  Yeah, it sucks when it happens, but it is not the worst thing ever and it prevents less than 10% of actual successful charges.

I think they probably should have changed the Giant's warscroll in the same way that they changed the Colossal Squig and put a flat value onto the number of club attacks rather than a dice roll value.  If the club started at say 10-14 attacks and then had a decent wound-decay pattern I think people would be a lot more positive on the giant even with the chance to fall over on the charge.

I don't think the Giant is bad, he is simply very unpredictable.  His on-paper average performance is not bad for his cost.  The issue is that during any single game what you experience is not generally a statistically average thing.  He is very prone to large swings in performance.  At full health he can make either 3 club attacks or 18 - or anywhere in between.  It sucks to get into combat and then only make 3-5 club attacks.  That is quite a feel-bad moment.  On the flip side, he can go nuts and drop 14-18 attacks and flatten something.  You just don't know what you are going to get.  For obvious reasons that bothers people looking for competitive options, and many other people will judge him by what happens the first or second time he hits the table.  If you get amazing murder machine giant then they might love him.  If they get bad hang-over day giant then they will probably be immediately turned off.

The Colossal Squig had his random attack values converted into flat values (among a few other changes) and people immediately began to like him more.  I think that would be the best way to tweak the giant.

[Skabnoze]

9 hours ago, a74xhx said:

It's only both fanatic units that are Moonclan and not Grot.  I assumed this the easiest way for GW to stop the fanatics buffing/hiding in themselves.

It's not just fanatics.  Squig Hoppers, Boingrot Bounders, Loonboss on Mangler, Loonboss on Giant Squig, and the Squig Herd are all Moonclan units that have grots in them but do not have the grot keyword.  Most buff abilities target "moonclan Grot" units rather than simply "moonclan" and so it means that buff interactions are highly restricted in this army.   For the most part I think they managed the interactions pretty well by restricting them, but I do think that they went a bit too far and it would have been better to have more that were just restricted to "moonclan" rather than "moonclan grot".  For example, I don't really understand why the Brewgit is Moonclan Grot Hero rather than either "Grot Hero", "Moonclan Hero", or even just "Gloomspite Hero".  The Spiker is another case where I feel that the buff should apply to a wider group of targets.

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't think the Giant is bad, he is simply very unpredictable.  His on-paper average performance is not bad for his cost. 

My problem with him is that he isn't that he's unpredictable, it's that his average performance is just worse than other units at the same cost.

His full damage profile is equivalent to 2 fellwater troggoths in melee, they have positive rules not negative AND they have the ranged attack, equally he's worse than 3 rockguts.

His full health damage output is best approximated by a squig herd unit of 12, something which is 20 points cheaper, has more utility, twice his wounds, and doesn't table anywhere near as hard.

For comparison. This is 4 Loonsmasha fanatics (assuming 1 dies on the charge, MW not included) vs the Gargant.

The loonsmashas clearly come out well ahead and can't be tabled before actually getting to combat. Plus they strike first in combat so don't mess with your combat priority. With the removal of battleplans which have objectives held by monsters I don't think the gargant would be worth including at 140 points. His warscroll only starts to become competitive at around the 100-120 price value.

[a74xhx]

18 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

It's not just fanatics.  Squig Hoppers, Boingrot Bounders, Loonboss on Mangler, Loonboss on Giant Squig, and the Squig Herd are all Moonclan units that have grots in them but do not have the grot keyword.  Most buff abilities target "moonclan Grot" units rather than simply "moonclan" and so it means that buff interactions are highly restricted in this army.   For the most part I think they managed the interactions pretty well by restricting them, but I do think that they went a bit too far and it would have been better to have more that were just restricted to "moonclan" rather than "moonclan grot".  For example, I don't really understand why the Brewgit is Moonclan Grot Hero rather than either "Grot Hero", "Moonclan Hero", or even just "Gloomspite Hero".  The Spiker is another case where I feel that the buff should apply to a wider group of targets.

I wasn't counting them because they're Squigs... Ok, should have said fanatics are the only Moonclan without Grot or Squig.  

Annoyingly it does all make sense in the end. Except those gobbas.

 

 

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah I use Gargants way more than I should too!

They really needed an updated warscroll, that was a missed opportunity. At the moment it's all risk and little reward. 

Thanks for the tournament write up, it's a good read! 

Glad to hear the Squigs are working for you, I might have to give that a go! I'd only used them as minimum Battleline but it's a good point on the rerolls to charge. 

[Skabnoze]

36 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The loonsmashas clearly come out well ahead and can't be tabled before actually getting to combat. Plus they strike first in combat so don't mess with your combat priority. With the removal of battleplans which have objectives held by monsters I don't think the gargant would be worth including at 140 points. His warscroll only starts to become competitive at around the 100-120 price value.

The problem here is that to a certain degree these are apples-oranges comparisons.  You can statistically measure an attack statline, or a resiliency to certain attacks, but there are more intangible things to models and units in this game that are difficult to account for. 

Fanatics are a great ambush unit that is designed to be very deadly.  They are quite likely to get a round of attacks in but they will evaporate after that.  They have their own warscroll, but they still operate more like an upgrade to a unit of grots than their own distinct unit. 

I love Squig Herds (I had about ~50 cave squigs before they released the plastic ones...) but it is the Gloomspite unit that is the most susceptible to battleshock in the book.  The toothy little monsters are quite offensive, fairly self-sufficient, have a fair amount of wounds, and are priced very nicely, but their absurdly low bravery can make units evaporate quickly.  It can suck to have multi-wound models rapidly scatter.  There are ways to mitigate this, but that requires active planning.  The Giant never has to worry about bravery unless hit by one of the few bravery-based attacks in the game.

There are both pros and cons for having large or small unit footprints and simple stat comparisons don't take that into account.

I won't at all argue that other units will statistically fare better in combat.  If that is the main metric you are interested in then that is fine.  I don't argue that the Giant on average is probably not quite as good as he should be - that is fair also.  I don't think he is the horrifically terrible unit that he is usually made out to be.  To me he is a very random model who is very prone to swingy results and on average is a bit lower than he ought to be.  However, he is also dirt cheap and I don't really see GW taking his points down much farther.

You can cost adjust most things, but I feel that there is a limit to how low GW will go and the issues with the Giant are mainly inherent to his warscroll and also to the Gloomspite army not having any real potential buff-vectors for him.  His only real buff interaction is within the Troggherd battalion.  Gloomspite was designed heavily around specific keyword interactions and "Aleguzzler Gargant" was specifically left out of all ability keyword interactions.  For example, imagine if Snufflers were changed so that their mushroom buff targeted "Gloomspite" instead of "Moonclan".  There would be a lot of interesting interactions there (such as Manglers), but I think the Giant would immediately become much more interesting given that he has 3 different quality attacks on his profile.  What if the Scaremonger could buff any "Gloomspite" rather than "Moonclan Grot"?  

For me, if they broadened how some of the buffs work then the Giant would become a lot more interesting.  Or if they made some tweaks to his warscroll.  They could change the variable amount of club attacks to a set value (I'd probably start at 14) or alternatively they could leave the club variable and change it to 2 damage.  He strikes me as honestly not needing a whole lot of alteration.   But, this is simply my opinion.

[Skabnoze]

39 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Glad to hear the Squigs are working for you, I might have to give that a go! I'd only used them as minimum Battleline but it's a good point on the rerolls to charge. 

The Cave Squig scroll got a nice little rework and I feel that it is one of the gems in the book.  The unit just feels like they hit exactly the right spot with it in terms of stats, abilities, and cost.  They have the herder abilities baked into the warscroll now and so you don't have the weird positioning & order of activation issues by needing to get the herders into position for the unit.

They split the single multi-damage attack into 2 attacks like the old Hopper warscroll and they baked the +1 to hit bonus from the herders into the basic profile.  And now the unit simply has to have herders alive to get the run/charge bonus.

My one complaint is that I wish they had put a bit more buff synergy available to Squigs.  I don't see any reason why it would have been too much for Sporesplatta Fanatics or the Spiker to be able to effect Squig Herds - but that is not a huge complaint.

I'll probably be exploring an all Squig list built on a backbone of a few huge Cave Squig units since I already have a ton and I can't resist buying a bunch more of the new kit.

[Malakree]

@Skabnoze I agree that the combat output of a unit isn't the only thing you measure a unit on.

My point is that all the other metrics make him worse not better. The "monster" keyword is strictly a negative in every situation now. His damage table is atrocious and special rules are god awful.

He holds objectives worse than anything else near his price point. His space denial is similar to a 70 point unit.

He doesn't even put that much damage in a small space due to how bad his damage is.

The reason I put so much focus into damage output is because it's the only part of the warscroll which comes close to being worth it. 

Squig herds might be terrible vs battleshock, you can also get 12 of them for less than a giant. If your opponent battleshock off half the unit you STILL got better points per wound than the giant.

Of all the warscrolls in the army in my opinion the aleguzzler is the only one which never has a place in any army. There's no reason to use it outside of "I like the model".

At 120 points it would STILL be questionable as to whether the giant was worth it.

[ItzMercy]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Squig herds might be terrible vs battleshock, you can also get 12 of them for less than a giant. If your opponent battleshock off half the unit you STILL got better points per wound than the giant.

 

4 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

but their absurdly low bravery can make units evaporate quickly

You have to remember their 'Squigs go wild' trait, I feel like the bravery was purposely put low due to that reason.

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, ItzMercy said:

 

You have to remember their 'Squigs go wild' trait, I feel like the bravery was purposely put low due to that reason.

It's no different than the gargant falling over and inflicting mortals on your army.

The difference is you can spend a CP, of which gloomspite has tons, to stop the squigs fleeing. 

Plus you can put the wounds onto squigs then have the herders flee to reduce the mw output. 

Again though we are discussing the drawbacks of a 70 point battleline vs a 160 point behemoth. 

You can take a fungoid with those squigs for the explicit purpose of generating cps to stop the squigs fleeing forcing your opponent to go through all 12 wounds.

Assume the gargant rolls max on every random stat against a 4+ save. His expected output is

This is the absolute best damage table. To put it in perspective this is the three fellwater troggs with rr1s to hit.

So 3 fellwaters are equivilent to a gargant who rolls perfectly on its random stats.

However you look at it the gargant is so overcosted it's unreal.

[Malakithe]

This is how I compare things...Giant vs Rockguts. Same points. Discuss!

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

40 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

This is how I compare things...Giant vs Rockguts. Same points. Discuss!

TOugher.. ranged attack... and prolly more damage in melee... more models for objectives... they do have damage table (as in every 4 wounds they lose effectiveness) but by that logic every unit has one... oh and they can walk thru trees easier... and can get cover... well damn giants suck don’t they? They should give gutbusters a “tribe” called giant tamers which gives bonuses to giants to make them worth it. The warhammer giant needs more play!

[TailoredTackle]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:15 AM, Satyrical Sophist said:

I love squig herd honestly. They have done really well for me. With a moon clan general (so unless you are troggoth based or spider based, pretty likely) they represent your cheapest battleline by far.

Plus I just love the reroll run and charges.

Totally agree they have a purpose in most lists, especially at the 70pts per 6. That is where I use them in 6 man or 12 man, really handy on hand of gork when flanking because of the reroll charge at 9". What I was getting at is bumping up your wounds totals for a meatier battle line, something important when thinking about competitive lists. While the bounderz/hopperz can get into battleline with a squig general, your gonna have a tough time staying in the game if you don't get more wounds on the table. So I prefer farming that out of stabbas vs. squig herd. IMO 60 stabbas at 360 is going to serve you better than 24 squigs at 280 with the free loonshrine and the mortal wounds from Stab 'em good. Better yet, using both strengths I find a battle line of 60 stabbas, 2x6 squigs a good balance. However, I am trying out 60 stabbas, 6 squigs, 20 stabba (+5 fanatics hidden) next Saturday to hand of gork squigs onto an objective T1 and then the stabba + fanatics behind enemy in T2 to regen, inevitably getting wiped out and hoping for 10 models back (loonshrine) on my objectives in Focal Point and Better Part of Valor (2/3 missions next Saturday).

[Malakree]

25 minutes ago, TailoredTackle said:

Totally agree they have a purpose in most lists, especially at the 70pts per 6. That is where I use them in 6 man or 12 man, really handy on hand of gork when flanking because of the reroll charge at 9". What I was getting at is bumping up your wounds totals for a meatier battle line, something important when thinking about competitive lists. While the bounderz/hopperz can get into battleline with a squig general, your gonna have a tough time staying in the game if you don't get more wounds on the table. So I prefer farming that out of stabbas vs. squig herd. IMO 60 stabbas at 360 is going to serve you better than 24 squigs at 280 with the free loonshrine and the mortal wounds from Stab 'em good. Better yet, using both strengths I find a battle line of 60 stabbas, 2x6 squigs a good balance. However, I am trying out 60 stabbas, 6 squigs, 20 stabba (+5 fanatics hidden) next Saturday to hand of gork squigs onto an objective T1 and then the stabba + fanatics behind enemy in T2 to regen, inevitably getting wiped out and hoping for 10 models back (loonshrine) on my objectives in Focal Point and Better Part of Valor (2/3 missions next Saturday).

Played against @Skeekrit today on shifting objectives with 48 squigs and 120 stabbas, basically impossible to shift and the squig damage output is pretty hefty.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

 

11 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Played against @Skeekrit today on shifting objectives with 48 squigs and 120 stabbas, basically impossible to shift and the squig damage output is pretty hefty.

Ooooo what did they play vs the squigs?

[TailoredTackle]

59 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Played against @Skeekrit today on shifting objectives with 48 squigs and 120 stabbas, basically impossible to shift and the squig damage output is pretty hefty.

Did you feel the squigs outperformed the stabbas? Were you buffing the stabbas with stab em good or sneeky snufflers?

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, TailoredTackle said:

Did you feel the squigs outperformed the stabbas? Were you buffing the stabbas with stab em good or sneeky snufflers?

Na, he had the squigs I was playing my ironjawz.

The squigs are just so tanky at 2 wounds a piece, the jaws are easily better than buffed up stabbas. Then having the flee for mortals was the final kick in the teeth.

To put it in perspective.

Squigs are 280 points for 48 wounds with 2 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/1.

I'm paying 320 points for 40 wounds of ardboys with the same attack profile. Except if the squigs flee they puke mw out AND they can attack in 2 ranks.

They are really good for their points cost, the damage output is way better than the stabbas.

[a74xhx]

And the modding starts. At this point I'm not sure if I have a great idea, or if I'll need to buy a new loonshrine.

[CitizenX]

Quick update. Played two games for Path to Glory and neither Stormcast nor Nighthaunts could withstand the might of the mangler squig  who refused to fight fair. The Doppelganger Cloak was definitely the right call with Fight Another Day. 

[Malakithe]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

Na, he had the squigs I was playing my ironjawz.

The squigs are just so tanky at 2 wounds a piece, the jaws are easily better than buffed up stabbas. Then having the flee for mortals was the final kick in the teeth.

To put it in perspective.

Squigs are 280 points for 48 wounds with 2 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/1.

I'm paying 320 points for 40 wounds of ardboys with the same attack profile. Except if the squigs flee they puke mw out AND they can attack in 2 ranks.

They are really good for their points cost, the damage output is way better than the stabbas.

Yes...this is what I like to hear....mmm squigs...

What was his full list?

Edited March 3, 2019 by Malakithe

[Nickmoss90]

10 hours ago, Malakree said:

Na, he had the squigs I was playing my ironjawz.

The squigs are just so tanky at 2 wounds a piece, the jaws are easily better than buffed up stabbas. Then having the flee for mortals was the final kick in the teeth.

To put it in perspective.

Squigs are 280 points for 48 wounds with 2 attacks at 4+/3+/-1/1.

I'm paying 320 points for 40 wounds of ardboys with the same attack profile. Except if the squigs flee they puke mw out AND they can attack in 2 ranks.

They are really good for their points cost, the damage output is way better than the stabbas.

So the next question is are stabbas worth it due to the hiding of a loonsmasher unit? Or just taking up more area with Congo line?

[AxolotlQuestions]

30 minutes ago, Nickmoss90 said:

So the next question is are stabbas worth it due to the hiding of a loonsmasher unit? Or just taking up more area with Congo line?

Stabbas come into their own once you start buffing them with snufflas and sporesplattas, especially if you can trigger the loonboss command ability. Not to mention that you can bring them back with the loonshrine. 

[ItzMercy]

13 hours ago, CitizenX said:

Quick update. Played two games for Path to Glory and neither Stormcast nor Nighthaunts could withstand the might of the mangler squig  who refused to fight fair. The Doppelganger Cloak was definitely the right call with Fight Another Day. 

That's a sexy mangler

[CitizenX]

4 hours ago, ItzMercy said:

That's a sexy mangler

And he's backed up by a rainbow of Squig bounderz at the moment. The end result is going to be a tide of killer skittles/easter eggs of doom when the painting is done.