Who was to blame for the death of the world that was?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

15 minutes ago, ClockworkGeo91 said:

Thanks all for the responses. I’ll need to read them I think. Was archaon only able to destroy the world because of Teclis ritual? I.e the gamble that went against them. 

Again sorry if these are silly questions.

Yeah, he was only able to because of Teclis’ actions, although Teclis was only acting upon Lileaths plans. 

[Ryan Taylor]

Blame?! You mean who gets the accolades right? Teclis (He got godhood) and Archaon (his horse become a psuedo dragon) I would argue Archaon got screwed in his prize for defying the gods and destroying the world. He should have at least got an actual Dragon. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

@Kramer @ClockworkGeo91 I’d recommend the 2 Archaon books too, especially the first 1. I think like the glotts it’s hard not to feel for the guy. 

Read them both. They are quite good. Gotrek saga still is a favourite although the eight lamentations are a close second. So do read that one as well if you haven't ?

[VBS]

3 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Yeah, he was only able to because of Teclis’ actions, although Teclis was only acting upon Lileaths plans. 

It's been a while since I read, and I don't have the books with me now to check, so correct me if I'm wrong. But  Archaon, as part of the End Times/Apocalypse/whatever, aimed to set up a massive ritual underneath Middenheim with some sort of device that would consume the whole world.

On the other hand, Teclis' gamble was to undo the Vortex, unleashing the Winds of Magic as he thought that binding the Winds through the Incarnates was the last resort to counter that ritual. But wasn't counting on Mannfred backstabbing people. There was also bringing back Nagash and a few other things in-between as a build up ("Just as planned" style) but overall, his gamble was destroying Ulthuan+magic saturation in exchange of a chance of stopping Chaos. I don't think the lack of Teclis would have prevented Archaon from doing his chaos-thing in Middenheim.

[Sleboda]

19 hours ago, Cambot1231 said:

Could have all been prevented if Mannfred didnt betray and ruin the ritual

Totally Mannfred.

It's why I refuse to even assemble his model.

[JackStreicher]

Actually only Mannfred, if he hadn‘t intervened the apocalypse would have been stopped.

[Kirjava13]

I was out of the hobby at that point, why exactly did Mannfred prefer to doom the world as opposed to, y'know, not doing that?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

8 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

I was out of the hobby at that point, why exactly did Mannfred prefer to doom the world as opposed to, y'know, not doing that?

Think he was bitter cause Nagash sold him out to the incarnates. That part of the story confuses me as to why he’s a mortarch in aos tbh. 

 

 

 

 

 

[michu]

Josh Reynolds explained why Nagash resurrected Mannfred here https://ask.fm/JoshMReynolds/answers/139429297631

[wingren013]

Morathi. The world being too weak to resist Archaon's invasion was Morathi's fault. She is responsible for The Sundering, The War of the Beard, and The Fall of Nehekara and Rise of Nagash

[amysrevenge]

Well if you want to go there.

The Dwarfs could have held off Archaon single-handedly if Mazdamundi hadn't caved their holds in.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

48 minutes ago, wingren013 said:

Morathi. The world being too weak to resist Archaon's invasion was Morathi's fault. She is responsible for The Sundering, The War of the Beard, and The Fall of Nehekara and Rise of Nagash

Great curve ball! I completely understand where you’re coming from. 

I guess if we go back far enough you could also argue it was the old ones  

Thanks @michu! I will check that out tomorrow. 

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

 

I guess if we go back far enough you could also argue it was the old ones

True, true, true... and who defeated the (c)old ones armies? You got it! ? 

[Kronos]

Butterfly effect, I blame the Slann and Old Ones for messing with the lovely verdant, world building Polar Gates and essentially brining both Chaos, Orcs, Skaven and the evil of men... no men, no Nagash. 

 

Just realised the Old World is like Jurassic Park, but the dinosaurs couldnt contain the humans and things got out of hand.   

[Black Blade]

On 8/13/2018 at 6:30 PM, NurglesFirstChosen said:

In my opinion Sigmar is to blame. The path Archaon followed was inevitable given everything he went through. Archaon was a good man in his early days under the guise of kastner.  Sigmar did nothing but allowed it to happen. I’d understand if others considered lileath or even teclis to be at fault, but for me the buck stops with Sigmar.

What are your thoughts? 

I love lore questions! Also your answer feels the trolling I'd expect from a Chaos Spawn so not sure if you really think its Simgar's fault. Being trapped in a comet for almost two thousand years I'm not sure how much of anything is your fault. Now I played Empire and Warriors so I liked them both but I blame Archaon (he wanted to do it, he made it happen) but still not as much as Manfred. He's the real guy who sealed the deal IMHO. 

[Black Blade]

4 hours ago, wingren013 said:

Morathi. The world being too weak to resist Archaon's invasion was Morathi's fault. She is responsible for The Sundering, The War of the Beard, and The Fall of Nehekara and Rise of Nagash

She did all that! Wow and to think I wanted to pick up her new model. 

[Skabnoze]

On 8/13/2018 at 4:30 PM, NurglesFirstChosen said:

In my opinion Sigmar is to blame. The path Archaon followed was inevitable given everything he went through. Archaon was a good man in his early days under the guise of kastner.  Sigmar did nothing but allowed it to happen. I’d understand if others considered lileath or even teclis to be at fault, but for me the buck stops with Sigmar.

What are your thoughts? 

I am a big fan of Grimgor, but the death of the old world was his fault.

He bested Archaon once, but was too lazy to finish the job. Then he let the GW crew retcon his victory without bashing their faces into the dirt with his choppa.

So disappointing.  No wonder he was replaced by Gordrakk.

[RuneBrush]

+++MOD HAT+++

Was hoping not to have to do this - but anybody else who thinks it's appropriate to make a non-background driven reply to this post will be getting warning points.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

8 hours ago, Black Blade said:

I love lore questions! Also your answer feels the trolling I'd expect from a Chaos Spawn so not sure if you really think its Simgar's fault. Being trapped in a comet for almost two thousand years I'm not sure how much of anything is your fault. Now I played Empire and Warriors so I liked them both but I blame Archaon (he wanted to do it, he made it happen) but still not as much as Manfred. He's the real guy who sealed the deal IMHO. 

Haha no chaos trolling. Although I will say this, Sigmar may not be a lie as Archaon once thought, but... he is no better in virtue than a chaos god. 

The grand Theogonist ordered Kastner and his entire estate dead (women and children) based on the writings of Belakor. Please note that at this point Kastner was still a man of Sigmar who had just been injured in a heroic battle against an entire host of beast men on his own with his squire. Kastner had shown many times during his earlier life that he was a true man of Sigmar and was not a thing of chaos. 

Belakor understood that sigmars followers were so weak and afraid that after reading the fictional book, would react that way, and would throw Kastner to the wolves.

Kastners soul was corrupted at the moment when he was issued the death sentence and the marauders helped him to survive. Kastner was experiencing an element of delirium due to his wound at the time, which coupled with such betrayal made him an easy target to corrupt. 

This was reinforced when he arrived at the Kastner estate to see the young boy and others hanging. 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

There is no need to personalise the issue, it’s just a fun conversation around our views about lore. But in answer to your question I have read all the Sigmar trilogy many times and much more besides. Please note that 100 people could read the same narrative and feel very differently about it. 

Sigmar as a man butchered people without compromise if they did not agree with him. And as a god he has done the same. There is lots of stories documenting how the followers of sigmar continue to butcher in his name. 

[Nat Westwood]

I think the First Cause and Prime Mover was the Warp Gate Failure and then Taking up the Sword of Aenarion. From that point on all the heroics of all the races was just delaying the End. There was no way to win. It was just buying time. Teclis could have pulled a rabbit out the hat, Sigmar defeated all comers, Mannfred been loyal, Arkhan chosen a different path, Grimgor could decapitated everyone, Chaos would still eventually win. The cycle of decline was long set in. Even if this particular plan had failed so much damage had been done to the civilization world's they would not have been able to rebuild to defend against the next, and the next, and tge next incursions. It was Lost the Day the Old Ones lost. It had always been lost. 

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, Nat Westwood said:

I think the First Cause and Prime Mover was the Warp Gate Failure and then Taking up the Sword of Aenarion. From that point on all the heroics of all the races was just delaying the End. There was no way to win. It was just buying time. Teclis could have pulled a rabbit out the hat, Sigmar defeated all comers, Mannfred been loyal, Arkhan chosen a different path, Grimgor could decapitated everyone, Chaos would still eventually win. The cycle of decline was long set in. Even if this particular plan had failed so much damage had been done to the civilization world's they would not have been able to rebuild to defend against the next, and the next, and tge next incursions. It was Lost the Day the Old Ones lost. It had always been lost. 

Isn't that a cheery thought!

Unless you're the Chaos Gods I guess.

[Nat Westwood]

If the people of the Old World thought like me they'd never get out of bed in the morning. Let alone flagellate their backs and eviscerate an innocent neighbour's cow for being a vile chaos worshipping beastman. My comments are bad for productivity. I will take the Slayer Oath and depart to the Chaos Wastes to seek my Doom for having said such things.

[Black Blade]

10 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Haha no chaos trolling. Although I will say this, Sigmar may not be a lie as Archaon once thought, but... he is no better in virtue than a chaos god. 

The grand Theogonist ordered Kastner and his entire estate dead (women and children) based on the writings of Belakor. Please note that at this point Kastner was still a man of Sigmar who had just been injured in a heroic battle against an entire host of beast men on his own with his squire. Kastner had shown many times during his earlier life that he was a true man of Sigmar and was not a thing of chaos. 

Belakor understood that sigmars followers were so weak and afraid that after reading the fictional book, would react that way, and would throw Kastner to the wolves.

Kastners soul was corrupted at the moment when he was issued the death sentence and the marauders helped him to survive. Kastner was experiencing an element of delirium due to his wound at the time, which coupled with such betrayal made him an easy target to corrupt. 

This was reinforced when he arrived at the Kastner estate to see the young boy and others hanging. 

Well that's a good story and you mentioned elements I wasn't aware of but I still don't see how this makes Sigmar culpable for the end of the world that was. He was a man who united disparate tribes and defended his people from brutal greenskins later stepping down from the throne and traveling over the far mountains never to be seen again until the end times. Tzeentch trapped Sigmar(the man) in the wind of Azyr which makes him into a kind of psuedo/young God. Later he is restored to life in the vessel of Karl Franz as an incarnate(mortal and not a God) and he tries to prevent the endtimes. I guess I'm asking if you're going to put the burden of ending the world on his shoulders what were his actions that make him responsible over others like Teclis, Morathi, Nagash or Archaon?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

@Black Blade I do stand corrected, Sigmar isn’t directly responsible. That being said, I can’t help but hold him or at least his representatives partially at fault ?? Maybe I’m just bitter about the treatment of Kastner. 

I think I’m sold on morathi or/and the old ones ?