amysrevenge Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 8 hours ago, KHHaunts said: In my oppinion The alliances do not need altering at all. I will admit there is a little grey area between some factions. Not Chaos that ones always been clear. Except Skaven. Which was never Chaos, or even remotely Chaosy, until the lore was written/altered to make them fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 4 hours ago, amysrevenge said: Except Skaven. Which was never Chaos, or even remotely Chaosy, until the lore was written/altered to make them fit. Well not even then. Even after Gw started to have written the lore, different to make them fit, skaven still seem not really to be a part of the grand chaos allegiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwface Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 2:39 PM, EccentricCircle said: The D&D alignment analogy is an interesting one. Different people will probably plot factions in different places on the alignment diagram, depending on what appeals to them about that faction. I figured it might be interesting to see where I would plot them all, so I did. Its interesting that I think there have been a few shifts in alignment in the transition from WHFB to AoS. I think this highlights that each faction is made up of various different groups and archetypes with different moral and ethical stances. By splitting them up, and redefining some of them to be their extremes, I think the spread has changed somewhat. See what you all think. And of course feel free to disagree with me about the placement! Age of Sigmar: Warhammer Fantasy What's top left in the 2nd chart? That's not Beastmen is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadee Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 My death army is Forest Alves, mired in the now pestilent glades of Rhyran, Nurgle opened the gate for Nagash to claim Alf ? elf? Alve? souls, it didnt work, now they are wandering the forests as its eternal guardians, serving in death as in life.~ Played as Death Alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus of Paint Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 18 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said: Fimir - *never* gonna happen as a main-page army. Retcon all you like, but someone will dig up the old WFB writings on fimir propagation at which point GW will be buried under PC hashtag campaigns and bad publicity. I was talking theorically, since GW has shown a trend of taking niche concepts from WHFB and turning them up to 11 as new complete factions for AoS. Maybe I’ve just seen one too many “create a new Destruction race” threads and GW already has one ripe for expansion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Screwface said: What's top left in the 2nd chart? That's not Beastmen is it? Chaos dwarves. I wanted to use the proper faction symbols from the red boxes, but couldn't find them online, so this was a but if a mishmash of themed images that popped up in google searches for the factions. I might try to redo it with minis or the canonical symbols at some point, but it will be more work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaldoBeardo Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Circus of Paint said: Also, could you not bring political correctness into the conversation? I’m sure we could collectively find worse examples of controversial lore out of the archives. Thanks! That's a *really* weird request, and no. It's something GW obviously takes in to consideration these days - so has to factor in to any discussion like this. Whether you agree with it as a concept or not. (PS. "worse" is a highly subjective term - but in the current era, Old Fimir lore firmly ticks all the social media hot-topic buttons.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circus of Paint Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said: That's a *really* weird request, and no. It's something GW obviously takes in to consideration these days - so has to factor in to any discussion like this. Whether you agree with it as a concept or not. (PS. "worse" is a highly subjective term - but in the current era, Old Fimir lore firmly ticks all the social media hot-topic buttons.) In that case I have nothing further to add to this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 +++MOD HAT+++ Shall we try and stay on topic folks rather than dipping our toe into the murky depths of political correctness. k, thx bye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlightwolf Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Stormcast eternals = Lawful Good?... looks at knights excelsior lore, yeah sure. Seriously though its precisely the fact that AoS factions don't fit traditional fantasy tropes of good guys and bad guys that makes me like them more. Each grand alliance fits to a central philosophy but there are wide variations between the members of that faction. Its also precisely what you need for a wargame otherwise how do you justify armies from the same alliance facing off against each other. Narrative is clearly a very strong part of AoS and efforts have definitely been made in the lore to ensure almost any match up can have a narrative basis. I really can't see any problem with how the alliance currently stand other than simply order has more factions which is something that will be addressed over time because A) models take time to design and produce and B) some alliances will always be favoured due to their popularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 11 hours ago, amysrevenge said: Except Skaven. Which was never Chaos, or even remotely Chaosy, until the lore was written/altered to make them fit. When was it 're written?. Up until the end times The horned rat was a denizen of the realm of Chaos. And the Skaven were essentially chaos mutants of a particular kind. How are they not "chaosy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 DnD alignment charts sort of work well for roleplay characters, but they tend to fail if you try to apply them to a whole race, faction, nation, people, world etc... Mostly because in reality even a good nation has its bad sides and bad individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said: Stormcast eternals = Lawful Good?... looks at knights excelsior lore, yeah sure. Lawful Good isn't Lawful Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, KHHaunts said: When was it 're written?. Up until the end times The horned rat was a denizen of the realm of Chaos. And the Skaven were essentially chaos mutants of a particular kind. How are they not "chaosy" Yes, the Horned Rat has also been a god within the Realm Of Chaos, but so was every god, even the good ones (Mathlann, Morr, Isha, even Sigmar himself), it is the only place were thoughts and prayers of soul beings could propogate into a reflection of their civilisation. So saying that Skaven were chaos mutants (when the original rat men were mutated from the item "warpstone" which has had many retcons but most believe was not controlled by chaos to land and was definitely not something of Nurgle at any stage) is a bit of a push. And in the Days Before they hated Chaos as much as the next non chaos mutated monstrosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Kitty said: And in the Days Before they hated Chaos as much as the next non chaos mutated monstrosity. Skaven still hate Chaos - they actually hate everything including other skaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: Skaven still hate Chaos - they actually hate everything including other skaven Well that's true ? They hate the Skaven that hate Skaven hating Skaven , who also hate everything lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlightwolf Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 Skaven hate the other chaos factions in the same way all chaos hates each other, each god sees the others as their rivals, even champions of the same god hate their fellows because they are in competition for their god's affection. Abaddon hates the chaos gods almost as much as he hates sigmar, he just believes he's able to use them. Skaven fit perfectly into that philosophy. They would see the world entirely subjugated by the skaven, this is exactly the same as the other chaos factions only substitute the word skaven with their particular chaos god or Abaddon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Moonlightwolf said: Stormcast eternals = Lawful Good?... looks at knights excelsior lore, yeah sure. Seriously though its precisely the fact that AoS factions don't fit traditional fantasy tropes of good guys and bad guys that makes me like them more. Each grand alliance fits to a central philosophy but there are wide variations between the members of that faction. Its also precisely what you need for a wargame otherwise how do you justify armies from the same alliance facing off against each other. Narrative is clearly a very strong part of AoS and efforts have definitely been made in the lore to ensure almost any match up can have a narrative basis. I really can't see any problem with how the alliance currently stand other than simply order has more factions which is something that will be addressed over time because A) models take time to design and produce and B) some alliances will always be favoured due to their popularity. Yeah, I considered putting stormcast in a couple of places, to include the more militant ones, but didn't want to get into doing all the sub factions. I decided to put them there since that is where they aspire to be, even if many if not most fall short of those aspirations. I wholeheartedly agree that Warhammer works best when everyone is basically evil, and a mass of shades of grey. Its always a little bit awkward when you have two closely aligned factions and have to justify them having a battle. Ultimately Alignment works best when it is a dynamic system, no one stays the same alignment all their lives, but shift and change as their outlook does. Trying to apply a classification to a civilization is challenging to say the least. You have to just ask the question, what do they consider themselves to be, and what does their behaviour actually suggest? Sub groups will show variation, but it will average out to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 The point isn't how Chaosy skaven are now, or were in the World That Was. The point is that they can take something as complete and iconic as the four gods of Chaos and, through the application of lore updates, say, "oh yeah, about that, there's 5 now", and have it be accepted. They could do the same with almost anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 10:02 AM, kenshin620 said: I mean heck even Oldhammer had living people work for death. I think the Ghouls were rumored to actually have been living cannibalistic cults that eventually turned undead. You had plenty of people in Sylvania that worked for the vampires (either willingly or unwilling. Vlad did want to become Emperor after all), and the Tomb Kings even governed some living cities. Actually, the story behind the creation of the Ghouls is messed up. There were some warring barbarian tribes that Nagash came upon. He decided he could use one to conquer the other and make a power base for himself in the area. He killed all that tribes holy men and got them to worship him with the promise that he would give him their enemies strength (which was metal working skills and other more advanced techniques they lacked). He very quickly came to disdain them completely and after their first battle against the more advanced barbarians (which they almost lost due to recklessness, causing Nagash to despise them more), Nagash told them they if they wanted the strength of their enemies, they had to devour them, living or dead. Over time those barbarians devolved into the Ghouls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlightwolf Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 5 hours ago, amysrevenge said: The point isn't how Chaosy skaven are now, or were in the World That Was. The point is that they can take something as complete and iconic as the four gods of Chaos and, through the application of lore updates, say, "oh yeah, about that, there's 5 now", and have it be accepted. They could do the same with almost anything else. There have been more than 4 chaos gods since the beginning. Malal might well still exist if not for rights issues, Hashut is the deity of the chaos dwarves and has been for some time, in the earliest iterations there were even good chaos gods of law. I remember that long before it was made official many players believed the horned rat was either a chaos deity in its own right or nurgle or tzeentch manipulating the ratmen. Even back in slaves to darkness and lost and the damned the idea of the main 4 just being the most powerful of many chaos gods is suggested. The 4 main chaos gods still remain the top dogs, Hashut and the horned rat are race specific, sustained by the worship and psyche of their chosen followers. The four chaos gods have always been the Iconic chaos figureheads but there have always been side powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 6 hours ago, xking said: Why is this thread still going on? The new core rule book explains grand alliances and we have plenty of lore on what they are. Order is Sigmar and his pantheon, likes building civilization, likes culture, Iikes order and structure(natural or artificial), hates Chaos, does not want to be undead. I don't think the grand alliances are going anywhere for years to come, they are a core element of the Age of Sigmar game and setting. Yeah but we still need a grand skaven allegiance ? they still don’t seem to fit too well into the Chaos allegiance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, xking said: They fit fine in the Chaos allegiance, The rat is a part of the Chaos pantheon. There are even "slaves to darkness" that worship the great horned rat in the "warbeast" novel. Well that might be so but it never really felt right for the skaven to even be a part of any other chaos army than them. And it still doesn’t feel right (that’s at least my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyriakin Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Grand Alliance: Rats Grand Alliance: Not Rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlightwolf Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said: Well that might be so but it never really felt right for the skaven to even be a part of any other chaos army than them. And it still doesn’t feel right (that’s at least my opinion) Well we've had skaven working with chaos since at least storm of chaos in 6th edition plus I've always felt it made sense for pestilens to team up with nurgle so long as we're clear that both sides of that alliance are just trying to use the other to further their own ends. Again a very chaos thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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