Is AoS cluttered?

[Attackmack]

This is from a newbies perspective, ive enjoyed AoS modelling and collecting since it was first released but hardly ever played it.

So im fooling around with the soul wars units on a table trying to get a feel for the game but with ever unit being so unique and many with a wide range of various abilities and effects that all trigger at different times/used at different times, it just feels so cluttered. I understand that someone who plays a lot of AoS, maybe even competitively, this isnt a problem. But for me as a casual player, it just feel way to difficult to overview.

If I could look at the warscroll for the unit I am currently activating and find all relevant information there it wouldnt be a problem, but since many abilities and effects trigger on OTHER units activating I constantly need to keep checking all the cards or ill be missing stuff all the time.

AoS is not complicated or difficult, but with lack of a better word I would like to call it cluttered. You have to scan every warscroll every phase of every turn to make sure your not missing something important. That or learn your warscrolls by memory, something I feel I may never be able to do.

This new box is amazing, and all in all I think AoS is great but as a casual player I feel that having all units full of abilities and special triggers is just making the game so cluttered. Its not difficult or complex, just extremely hard to overview and keep track off  

How to you guys do it? I might be wanting to start playing AoS this year down at the club but I dont wanna drag the game to a halt or cripple myself completely by missing all the abilities all the time...

[JReynolds]

2 minutes ago, Attackmack said:

How to you guys do it? I might be wanting to start playing AoS this year down at the club but I dont wanna drag the game to a halt or cripple myself completely by missing all the abilities all the time...

Personally, I have the same problem you do, with regards to keeping track of what does which.  I played smaller games to start with, because it means less to keep track of - a leader, 3 or 4 units (maybe a 1000 points, if you're using points?), and a simple scenario.  Once I'd played a few, and gotten used to certain mechanics (destiny dice - you have no idea how many times I forgot about those...), I started playing larger games. 

So that's what I'd suggest. Start small, get used to the synergies between a few units, and then expand as and when you feel comfortable. Maybe add 1 or 2 new units, and see how they work, or a new hero. Most folks I've played with don't mind smaller games, because they tend to be fairly quick, even with someone like me, who forgets how charging works on a regular basis. 

[Jamopower]

It sure is. I many times forget half of my rules as I rarely play two games in a row with the same army and even two games in a row of the same game system are not that common. It's not as bad as some games (I'm thinking of you Infinity), but there are a lot of layers that I can live without. We never use the triumphs or mystical terrain, batallions very rarely and in small games it's better to use the grand alliance abilities for all armies as it makes the game a lot more even. 

However, the nice thing with AoS is as JReynolds mentioned above, the additional rules are easy to add into the mix in the magnitude the players feel confident on using.

[AaronWilson]

There certainly is a lot going, while the core rules are minimalist (in no way a insult, it works very well) the depth in the games lies in the warscrolls and the synergies they provide and trying to remember all your overlapping rules can often lead to "******, I should of been re-rolling/been +/ you - to hit" etc etc as you're trying to remember everything that's going on.

I'd recommend either making your own little tokens out of card or buying the warscroll cards for your faction (If they have them) so you can mark effects on the table. The more you play the more you will remember. 

[Jamopower]

I don't think the warscrolls are too complex ion their own, but it starts to get bit exhaustive when you can have on top of them from different books a batallion, a super-batallion, allegiance ability, command trait effect, artefact effect, command ability effect, "chapter trait" (the skyports etc.), a spell effect, a prayer effect, mystical terrain effect, triumph, a realm effect and I'm sure that I forgot something.

 

Edit: On top of them at least malign portents, endless spells and of course the scenario special rules.

[EccentricCircle]

Yeah, I find this. My brain just isn't wired for learning game rules or statistics, which is odd, because I have a vast volume of lore material, spanning several different fictional universes rattling around in there!

I game with people who have basically memorised all of their unit's stats and can just focus on tactics and strategy. Whereas, I'm constantly flicking between pages, trying to figure out what does what. I have no idea how to actually synergise any of it, and always feel at a bit of a disadvantage.

Its why I don't really enjoy playing board games. In the time it takes me to figure out how to play a new game (or a new warhammer unit etc), the people I'm playing with have figured out how to win. I'm fine with RPGs, as I can basically use systems I've practiced forever, and avoid trying to learn new ones.

AoS at least has a straightforward set of core rules, but its all the fiddly bits around the edges that catch me out. I loved the idea of using the malign portents, but about a tern into the game I realised there way no way I could handle it, and basically stopped worrying about them.

Luckily I'm mainly here for the painting and modelling, and don't care at all about competitive gaming, otherwise I'm not sure I'd have stuck with it.

[Gaz Taylor]

1 hour ago, Attackmack said:

How to you guys do it? I might be wanting to start playing AoS this year down at the club but I dont wanna drag the game to a halt or cripple myself completely by missing all the abilities all the time...

Start small and play lots of games. Most players can't remember all the warscrolls and will have playing aids or consult the scrolls and will have played lots of games, so don't go round thinking that everybody does it. Like all games it will take some practise before it all clicks

 

[MrZakalwe]

2 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Start small and play lots of games.

 

This has the added benefit of being a lot of fun if you avoid a couple of matchups. 

[Nin Win]

It took me forever to get through a game without forgetting one ability or another.  I don't know how tournament players who jump through 3 or 4 lists a year and know whatever everyone else's models do keep that all in their brains.

One thing I ended up doing is making my own check list.

Start of Battle Round
	- what you mean stuff can happen here too?!
Hero Phase
	- command ability 1
	- command ability 2
	- magic spell
	- endless spell 1
	- trait ability
Movement Phase
	- This character needs to be within 12" of something for her ability!
Shooting Phase
	- Reroll those 1s on this unit
	

You get the idea.

 

[AlphaKennyThing]

I ended up using something similar to Nin Win. Nighthaunt are a highly synergistic army, so the learning curve is fairly steep. Others are more straight forward.

Make a checklist that lists out what you can use in each phase and work through it. You'd be surprised how quickly you can remember things. I can remember everything my Ironjawz do now without much consultation with literature, but I still check my sheet before combats for any extra stuff such as artefacts or relics.

The warscroll cards are fantastic for this. Grab some post-it notes and jot down any extras for that unit so you don't forget.

[RuneBrush]

Very much so!  I think even seasoned veterans forget things.  As a lot of people above have said, start small and build up and create playing aids that will help you remember the things you forget.  Everybody is different too - I may find tokens alongside units helps you remember that they're re-rolling hits, but you might find something else helps.

One thing I'd suggest too, is to try and keep all of your gaming detritus organised.  I keep my books under the table, warscroll cards in one corner and tokens and dice in a tray.  Sadly not many locations have enough space for a 6x4 gaming board and an area for your stuff, so keeping it neat means you can put your hand on it more quickly and also means that any photos that get taken don't look a bit rubbish.

Here's a snippet of my old edition cheat sheet for my Legions of Nagash army (it does need updating for the new edition).  I'm going to format this so that it fits on the same size as a warscroll card

[AaronWilson]

Yeah I need to do this, my magic phase is looking painful and has to be done in a specific order 

- LoC Command Ability
- Blue Scribes 2+ 
- Tzaangor Shaman - Spell Portal 
- Curseling - Soulbind Shackles
- Curseling Spell 2 
- Gaunt Summoner - Balewind Vortex
- Gaunt Summoner Spell 1 
- Gaunt Summoner Spell 2 
- Lord of Change Spell 1 
- Lord of Change Spell 2 
- Pink Horror Spell 

Need a check list!

[Dragobeth]

While AoS is not my first game, a lot of players from my local group have AoS as their first tabletop game, so I usually see people with this kind of problem.

What we usually do is make them start with little games (skirmish size is a good way to start) only with core rules and warscrolls (battletomes, lores of magic, traits, artifacts, batallions and all of that can be added later, when the player is fine with his/hers units)

Other little trick is make a list with your unit's abillities and when those abillities triggers (SW Destiny comes with a card explaining what you can do and when in your turn, I used that as a base for AoS)

You can use list building to learn your warscrolls too.

For Example, one of our players started with Seraphon.

He first choose a hero that he liked (Skink Starpriest) and look at his warscroll to look what it does and what units that little precious lizard can help.

"Oh, he can buff claws and fangs attacks" that made him buy some saurus and we started to play some skirmish.

That's a little example but buying the saurus made him remmember the Skink abillity (sometimes ofc) and he is not the first that starts with some hero + battleline and ends up with 2k points months/years later that he know perfectly how it works thanks to how he collected them.

Start with little games, collect the army by reading your warscrolls abillities (an looking for units that can help or be helped by that) and having a little list with what does what and when it does that can help a lot

And remmember that even when you have been playing more than 10 years you will still have to look for things in the rules and warscrolls, it's totally normal.

[Jator]

  I haven't tried the game yet, but I also got the impression that AoS works better for smaller games. My reasons to think that are all the special rules each unit have, all the random rolls for initiative and effects, and moving all your units one by one (movement trays do seem like a bad option for this game).
   I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You'll have fluffy, fast fun games. But I do not know how popular that is. People usually gravitate towards "the more the better".

  Again, I don't have real experience with the game, so I'm ready to stand corrected if needed.

[MrZakalwe]

4 minutes ago, Jator said:

  I haven't tried the game yet, but I also got the impression that AoS works better for smaller games. My reasons to think that are all the special rules each unit have, all the random rolls for initiative and effects, and moving all your units one by one (movement trays do seem like a bad option for this game).
   I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You'll have fluffy, fast fun games. But I do not know how popular that is. People usually gravitate towards "the more the better".

  Again, I don't have real experience with the game, so I'm ready to stand corrected if needed.

 

I find the sweet spot to be about 1500 or (1250 when facing a swarmy enemy like Skaven to save time)

[Jamopower]

4 minutes ago, Jator said:

  I haven't tried the game yet, but I also got the impression that AoS works better for smaller games. My reasons to think that are all the special rules each unit have, all the random rolls for initiative and effects, and moving all your units one by one (movement trays do seem like a bad option for this game).
   I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You'll have fluffy, fast fun games. But I do not know how popular that is. People usually gravitate towards "the more the better".

  Again, I don't have real experience with the game, so I'm ready to stand corrected if needed.

I think it scales surprisingly well up from 500 or so points (although in that size, you'll want to have min unit sizes of 3-5 for most of the stuff and limit the heroes to one to keep it interesting). In smaller games I would also leave the faction specific allegiances and spells mostly away as they are not always so well scaling (4 gravesites in a 500 point game could be interesting...). My favourite size is 1500 points, you get plenty of stuff, but not everything you'd want and it reduces the length bit from 2000 points. 1000 points works also well.

[Attackmack]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Some form of "cheatsheet" seems like a very good idea, something that lists what my current army can do during different phases.

Of course this all become even more brainache as Im fooling around on my own, trying to play and learn both Nighthaunt and Stormcast at the same time and this is of course not representative of playing a single army with some experience behind it so I guess after a few "real" games things might start to feel easier.

A few years ago when I was introduced to Guild Ball I had the same feeling, and that was the reason I didnt get into it. Every model had its own unique abilities, synergising with several of the other models etc etc. I can see it being great fun if you can dedicate yourself enough to get really into it, but if you just want to enjoy a game every now and then it just feels like a chore  

[Overread]

Synergies can feel overwhelming if you try to learn too many at once or the game requires it - its why I'm rubbish at building decks in Magic the Gathering as I can't memorize and then organise the cards and all the dozens of abilities into combos. 

 

 

Warhammer is easier as the number of variations is far fewer per army. So focus on one army and, as said, play smaller games. You might even vary those games so that you have a very simplistic core of basic troops and then add in synergies bit by bit. This might mean you lose some matches because your army isn't working "perfectly" but it will help you play and learn to remember to use those synergies. The more you use them the more you'll find it easier to remember.

 

A cheat-sheet is also perfectly valid; writing down the order of synergy abilities or a chain of actions you want to undertake. The trick is to keep it simple so that you don't end up with super complex structures that rely upon very specific situations to work and if one bit is missing/broken/in the wrong place it fails. Those are synergies good to be aware of but not rely on (as your opponent will bash holes in any plan).

 

Practice practice practice and re-reading material helps. It's like anything, the more you do it the more you get things into your long term memory and the more you find it easier to handle all the bits pulled together. Isolated there's nothing complex in the game. Nothing. The complexity is bringing it all together at once; so break it down, practice and you'll find it comes easier. Re-reading after playing also helps as the play gives you context and the re-reading helps you review. Even writing a battle report down (even if its just notes) helps reinforce what you did in your own mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like driving a car; when you start out there are SOOO many things to remember to do almost all at once that it can be overwhelming. Check mirror, position, throttle, gears, sounds, other cars, the corner, the sign post, the direction, the satnav. Lots of stuff all at once that if you try it al first time you'll miss out loads of it. Give it hours of practice and each little bit becomes easier and suddenly you find that instead of not having enough time and being overwhelmed; you've got a lot more time and each action flows smoothly from the last. 

[The Black Marshal]

It can also be a fun little modeling project to make counters and token symbolizing what effects are taking place. Banners for Command abilities, Weapons for combat, shields for buff, and so one. They can be highly personalized to your army, or generic for use in several different armies. Just something to consider, I used to have some for my 40K Black Templars and they were fun to make. 

[Dragobeth]

15 minutes ago, Attackmack said:

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Some form of "cheatsheet" seems like a very good idea, something that lists what my current army can do during different phases.

Of course this all become even more brainache as Im fooling around on my own, trying to play and learn both Nighthaunt and Stormcast at the same time and this is of course not representative of playing a single army with some experience behind it so I guess after a few "real" games things might start to feel easier.

A few years ago when I was introduced to Guild Ball I had the same feeling, and that was the reason I didnt get into it. Every model had its own unique abilities, synergising with several of the other models etc etc. I can see it being great fun if you can dedicate yourself enough to get really into it, but if you just want to enjoy a game every now and then it just feels like a chore  

Just remmember that you don't have to like the game itself, you can be in for the paint/collect part of the hobby and that is totally fine (it's a very varied hobby, some like to paint, other to play and even the play group is divided in people who like listbuilding and others that just ike to throw dices and move miniatures)

Try to learn one army first, do little games with incator + 1 unit vs 1 NH hero + 1 NH unit and add more units once you get what does those that you use.

I won't try to make it look pretty, there are a lot of rules and even the people who have been playing years have to look at the books sometimes while playing, all we can do is help you in your way to learn the rules/warscrolls. Just do little steps, don't mind if you get something wrong sometimes, it's part of the hobby and we all are always learning.

 

[Clewz]

Liking the checklist idea. When I last played a couple years ago I was constantly forgetting stuff each turn. Will definitely take that on board now I'm starting again with the new edition

[Attackmack]

28 minutes ago, Dragobeth said:

Just remmember that you don't have to like the game itself, you can be in for the paint/collect part of the hobby and that is totally fine (it's a very varied hobby, some like to paint, other to play and even the play group is divided in people who like listbuilding and others that just ike to throw dices and move miniatures)

Try to learn one army first, do little games with incator + 1 unit vs 1 NH hero + 1 NH unit and add more units once you get what does those that you use.

I won't try to make it look pretty, there are a lot of rules and even the people who have been playing years have to look at the books sometimes while playing, all we can do is help you in your way to learn the rules/warscrolls. Just do little steps, don't mind if you get something wrong sometimes, it's part of the hobby and we all are always learning.

 

No doubt, collecting and painting is my main interest and reading the lore and setting too!

I do love gaming though, and from what Ive seen AoS looks like great fun so I want to give it a proper run before I decide to go for it or not  

[chord]

For learning, like others have said start with small games. Additionally for those games only use warscrolls, and forget about all the allegiance/artifacts/etc.  Those you can add in later once you get a good feel for the units you have.  Then slowly layer those on.

A cheat sheet works well if you have a "list" you play with.  For myself I tend to play different lists each time (I'm not a "list" builder).  So I always end up flipping around a lot.  

[syph0n]

I also watch plenty of games, especially if I can find battles that include my faction(s). 

I learnt a lot just from YouTube batreps that it made my life so much easier.

When teaching my son, we play a very limited game - pick two units or sets of models, and just play. It might be only the combat phase, it might include movement or shooting, but it does help to make things stick. My son is only 7 so whilst he remembers the values for hit or wound of a few units, I have to remember the rules for his models as well as mine! 

For learning, like others have said start with small games. Additionally for those games only use warscrolls, and forget about all the allegiance/artifacts/etc.  Those you can add in later once you get a good feel for the units you have.  Then slowly layer those on.

A cheat sheet works well if you have a "list" you play with.  For myself I tend to play different lists each time (I'm not a "list" builder).  So I always end up flipping around a lot.  

Agreed.

I've tried to condense warscrolls down on to half size sheets where poss. 

I'm a teacher and we have things called 'knowledge organisers' AKA cram everything you can on to one page! They work quite well with the warscrolls...

 

[blueshirtman]

I have my warscrolls printed and laminted with add hit box for each model, so I don't have to use dice to mark stuff like wounds. I use tokens to represent beneficial effects. And the really important stuff about a model, like to not forget to heal with a huskard,  I have writen in bold red letters at the bottom of the warscroll. I know people that have magic also use tokens to represent spells, command abilities etc.