TheMuphinMan Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, shinros said: The whole point is that order is meant to be the various civilisations who exactly are not friends are forced to work together to survive against the other three alliances. To make a death faction that is somehow immune to nagash just seems superficial and snow flaky, it's why the flesh eater courts are not standing their ground. They are running as far as they can from the great necromancer and I doubt people want TK to be a faction that is running to the hills as soon as Nagash pops his head out. I think I'm just biased against Nagash because I see him as the kid that runs around with a supersoaker spraying people then cries when kids start spraying him back because he's not allowed to get wet. Gods of Death: We are just going to eat the souls of the dead. Other gods: K Nagash: I'm not a god yet but I'm going to steal some of those souls to increase my power and build an army. Gods of Death: K Nagash: Now I'm going to kill all the Gods of Death so I'm the sole god of death and use those souls to attack everyone else *Other gods figure they might as well use souls so Nagash doesn't use the souls to attack them Nagash: Wow I stab Sigmar in the back once and now he takes all the good souls that should be mine because those souls rightfully belong to the Gods of Death, which only includes me now. Stealing is wrong so I should ****** up the reforging process by taking a bit of the stormcasts' souls each time they die. As much as I try, I can't fight this headcanon I have towards Nagash which kind of ruins Grand Alliance death to me thus I want it to be decentralized from Nagash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, TheMuphinMan said: I think I'm just biased against Nagash because I see him as the kid that runs around with a supersoaker spraying people then cries when kids start spraying him back because he's not allowed to get wet. Gods of Death: We are just going to eat the souls of the dead. Other gods: K Nagash: I'm not a god yet but I'm going to steal some of those souls to increase my power and build an army. Gods of Death: K Nagash: Now I'm going to kill all the Gods of Death so I'm the sole god of death and use those souls to attack everyone else *Other gods figure they might as well use souls so Nagash doesn't use the souls to attack them Nagash: Wow I stab Sigmar in the back once and now he takes all the good souls that should be mine because those souls rightfully belong to the Gods of Death, which only includes me now. Stealing is wrong so I should ****** up the reforging process by taking a bit of the stormcasts' souls each time they die. As much as I try, I can't fight this headcanon I have towards Nagash which kind of ruins Grand Alliance death to me thus I want it to be decentralized from Nagash. In the age of myth the gods agreed that Nagash gets shyish and dead souls. Also you are putting the whole story on such a simple level when it's more complicated than that. I can easily say Sigmar is an idiot for trying to get an alliance with someone while also slapping him in the face aka Nagash. Also the betrayal was orchestrated by Archaon to break the two last members of the pantheon. Despite Nagash's goals he was the last of the pantheon to leave, GW have even alluded that Nagash was somewhat different in the past. Also the aelven gods essentially left during the conflict and even now the gifts they gave sigmar are not really "gifts". Malerion uses his to spy on sigmar. This is how GW decided death will be, Nagash is the big cheese on top. Settra wanted what Nagash has now and Settra lost he made his stand in the end times and lost. Even in the new core book they reference Nehekhara as a part of the death's past. Deathrattle are essentially the new "tomb kings". Don't get me wrong I would like a tomb king style faction, but don't think they are going to be independent. They detail explicitly what Nagash does to those who think such a thing in his realm. He has a whole desert which he made out of the blood of those who stood against him. But what was the nail in the coffin to that dream was in the very first white dwarf(new) when the designer of nagash and the mortarch kit said that is the theme death will follow from now on. Dark gothic horror. Also the fact that no one bought TK did not do them any favours either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Roderick Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 55 minutes ago, TheMuphinMan said: I think I'm just biased against Nagash Yeah I feel this a bit as well, which is why I'm planning on playing without special characters and theming my army as a coven of vampires hiding out in ghyran and secretly researching a way to escape nagash's dominion. I also love the idea of having more death factions that don't answer to nagash. Special snowflake maybe, but it would just give more breadth and depth to the setting. Archaon doesn't actually respect the chaos gods. The aelves don't answer to sigmar, and we all know how destruction rolls. Just my tuppence anyway. And why not bring back some of the tomb kings special characters? They were boss! Quite a few of them lasted longer than Mannfred in the end times and he's still running around. Maybe nagash gets cocky, thinks he can bring one back as a mortarch but then gets whupped somehow (he is overextended just now) and after losing the soul wars, hangs back to lick his wounds rather than taking on the new death faction straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drahazar Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 well thankfully I can continue to play TK with Narrative and open play. And being GW will keep there points up as well the group I am with will allow it in matched play. Though I would like to see that battletome get GWs approval. I also don't like Nagash as well I think hes a little punk. Though I do like the nighthaunt stuff as it looks cool. I have always loved the Egyptian stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDuff Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 5 hours ago, TheMuphinMan said: The problem I see with Tomb Kings is the only Grand Alliance they really fit in is Order from a narrative standpoint. Settra spat in the face of the Chaos gods after they blessed him, Nagash never did his commission of finding a way to give them immortal bodies of solid gold back when they were all alive and he already spent the advance they gave him, and the Tomb kings are too organized for destruction which leaves order (also stormcast are basically Immortal bodies gilded in golden armor). So if they were brought back into the narrative, they'd need to be ORDER units with a rule saying that they are treated as having DEATH keyword when it comes to spells and abilities Do you think Vannah's Forgotten Dead from the MP story of the same name could have enough troops (cough cough Tomb Kings) left to join with Order, or did Nagash nom-nom them all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 29 minutes ago, MacDuff said: Do you think Vannah's Forgotten Dead from the MP story of the same name could have enough troops (cough cough Tomb Kings) left to join with Order, or did Nagash nom-nom them all? They belong to Nagash now. The stormcast drew Nagash's eye to that underworld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDuff Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Yeah, just looking for a slender thread to tug on for the Tomb Boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMuphinMan Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Captain Roderick said: I also love the idea of having more death factions that don't answer to nagash. Special snowflake maybe, but it would just give more breadth and depth to the setting. Infighting between all the other grand alliances makes sense, order are allies of oppertunity (overreforged stormcast have even raised some cities in the malign portent short stories so freeguild vs stormcast could even make sense if you set it to a avenging a wiped out hamlet), destruction factions don't need much to justify infighting (2 ogre tribes fighting over who gets to eat the babies in a village), and chaos probably has more infighting than external fighting with the the 4 gods each trying to take territory from each other in the warp on top of the mortal realms, skaven backstabbing each other, etc. Infighting in death could only be justified as Nagash splitting an army in half and making it fight itself for the spectacle. As it currently stands, I see Nagash-centric "DEATH" to be more like just "SKAVEN", a faction with different subfactions within it, rather than a true "Grand Alliance". The fact that the entire Grand Alliance serves a being that can be given a point value doesn't help either which is why I also think the Nagash Model should be change to an avatar/projection/aspect/etc of Nagash rather than Nagash himself Edit: I should probably stop posting because I'm just dragging this off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Roderick Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 29 minutes ago, TheMuphinMan said: I should probably stop posting because I'm just dragging this off topic Whoops me too! Sorry tomb kings fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 7 hours ago, shinros said: At the moment they are pushing the dark gothic theme with Death. They said as such in the white dwarf. It's why they designed the mortarch's in such a fashion. For example would tomb kings fit in this picture? At the moment they are pushing the murderous cult theme with Order (Daughters, Deepkin). How do the Fyreslayers fit in this picture? See what I did there? If GW isn't going to do anything with TK, that's their choice, but why some folks keep wanting to squish the hobby-happy of those who still like TK (and even try to act like they know what GW is attempting as "evidence" that people should move on) is beyond me. If people want to cling to the possibility of TK coming around again, or at least not going away entirely, why, why, why not just let them have that? How is their enthusiasm hurting you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, Sleboda said: At the moment they are pushing the murderous cult theme with Order (Daughters, Deepkin). How do the Fyreslayers fit in this picture? See what I did there? If GW isn't going to do anything with TK, that's their choice, but why some folks keep wanting to squish the hobby-happy of those who still like TK (and even try to act like they know what GW is attempting as "evidence" that people should move on) is maybe me. If people want to cling to the possibility of TK coming around again, or at least not going away entirely, why, why, why not just let them have that? How is their enthusiasm hurting you? Well yeah that's the point of order, societies that have little in common banding together to protect said civilisation. So yes both armies fit the picture if you read the lore of order. That is the point of grand alliance order. All I am saying is that people can do TK, but don't raise your expectations of getting actual support. That's the point I am trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJ26 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 It's also been said in the lore that archaon tricked sigmar into believing Nagash left the pantheon. Sigmar got mad and rampaged through Shyish which in turn left it weak enough for archaon to defeat Nagash. Sigmar betrayed Nagash 1st...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 11 hours ago, RuneBrush said: However it's very obvious that Tomb Kings still have got a huge following so you never know! i wouldn't go that far. its the same few voices each time, making the same arguments, making as much noise as possible making it out to be far more popular than it is. its become a meme that isnt going to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlvalentine Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Sleboda said: At the moment they are pushing the murderous cult theme with Order (Daughters, Deepkin). How do the Fyreslayers fit in this picture? See what I did there? If GW isn't going to do anything with TK, that's their choice, but why some folks keep wanting to squish the hobby-happy of those who still like TK (and even try to act like they know what GW is attempting as "evidence" that people should move on) is beyond me. If people want to cling to the possibility of TK coming around again, or at least not going away entirely, why, why, why not just let them have that? How is their enthusiasm hurting you? For what it's worth, I genuinely think Tomb Kings players will be happier in the long run if they accept the army's not coming back. Clinging on to the hope is just going to mean years and years of disappointment, and potentially time and money wasted on increasingly difficult to source models. If people move on and try to find a new army that appeals to them, they can have far more fun with Age Of Sigmar. On a general level, I do think there's a culture in Age Of Sigmar of people clinging on to their sometimes very old Warhammer Fantasy armies from back in the day and taking every opportunity to complain that they're not being sufficiently supported, and I think it threatens to hold Age Of Sigmar back. The less GW feels it needs to accomodate decades old models created for a different game, the more cool new stuff it's freed up to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Arkiham said: i wouldn't go that far. its the same few voices each time, making the same arguments, making as much noise as possible making it out to be far more popular than it is. its become a meme that isnt going to go away. I'd not say it was the same handful of people in truth. Generally whenever you get a discussion about armies*, Tomb Kings will be raised at some point. Often it's made tongue in cheek but almost as often it's people who either want to dig out their existing Tomb King army or who like the look of them and actually fancy collecting them. I actually think that if GW brought back the Tomb Sphinx and Bone Giant in some form a lot of people would be happy with that - they'd be pretty easy to merge into the existing range too and would give Death players a big model in addition to the Mortarchs and Nagash. * I'm including open days, WH Fest & club discussions in addition to forum topics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 The shooting units would also be a good addition for the Death as whole as it's something that they don't have and the Screaming skull catapult and the skeleton archers and chariots are iconic Warhammer units. Maybe if they'll do a Deathrattle battletome at some point they could renew those units. They could ditch Egyptian theme to tie them better to the remaining range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyriakin Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, robinlvalentine said: On a general level, I do think there's a culture in Age Of Sigmar of people clinging on to their sometimes very old Warhammer Fantasy armies from back in the day and taking every opportunity to complain that they're not being sufficiently supported, and I think it threatens to hold Age Of Sigmar back. The less GW feels it needs to accomodate decades old models created for a different game, the more cool new stuff it's freed up to do. All my TK were bought no earlier than the End Times. Why would new desert-themed undead miniatures not be on the level of the other new releases? Look how much better Harpies are now compared to their WHFB predecessors, or Morathi, the Great Unclean One, Nagash, etc. Also, complaints about "not being sufficiently supported" (e.g. Dispossessed, etc.) are not equivalent to "complaints about being wiped from existence" (i.e. Brets and TK). Although, i feel the likes of Dispossessed, Wanderers, Darkling Covens and various High Elves will too get clobbered with this eventually, because every concept that wasn't created prior to 2015 is not fit for purpose, apparently... (except Dwarf Slayers, Orc Brutes, Witch Elves, Khorne Barbarians, Tzeentch Daemons, Treemen, Nurgle Daemons, Cloaked "wraith" Ghosts, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 32 minutes ago, Kyriakin said: Although, i feel the likes of Dispossessed, Wanderers, Darkling Covens and various High Elves will too get clobbered with this eventually, because every concept that wasn't created prior to 2015 is not fit for purpose, apparently... (except Dwarf Slayers, Orc Brutes, Witch Elves, Khorne Barbarians, Tzeentch Daemons, Treemen, Nurgle Daemons, Cloaked "wraith" Ghosts, etc.). I don't think that it's about that they wouldn't fit. They fit perfectly, but they mostly also have full ranges already and they've been focusing on new stuff after the few haphazard battletomes in the beginning. Which is understandable, as there is whole new world to fill up with what ever they can imagine. That said, they also have big potential of expanding the existing subfactions in the style of Daughters of Khaine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyriakin Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, Jamopower said: I don't think that it's about that they wouldn't fit. They fit perfectly, but they mostly also have full ranges already and they've been focusing on new stuff after the few haphazard battletomes in the beginning. Which is understandable, as there is whole new world to fill up with what ever they can imagine. That said, they also have big potential of expanding the existing subfactions in the style of Daughters of Khaine. That's what I mean. It's not an "either/or" situation. GW can, and will, bring older concepts up to date with their improved miniatures, while also dropping in ground-up new concepts like KO and ID. I mean, i see this kind of thing often...: -------------------------------- Rumour Monger: "New Black Coach incoming." Customers (picturing the old Black Coach): "The Black Coach sucks! Boring! We want new ideas, not the same tired old WHFB stuff!" ***GW releases awesome new Black Coach*** Customers: "Ooh, that looks amazing!" ------------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EccentricCircle Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 I guess it depends what you are getting out of the hobby. For me the appeal of the Tomb Kings is their aesthetic. I love ancient Egypt and enjoy painting and displaying models inspired by it. If they brought back Settra or Khalida as the mortarch of a deathrattle army, but dropped that aesthetics to continue the Dark and Gothic look, it wouldn't scratch that itch. (I don't *mind* Gothic skeletons, and have many, but I'll never quite love my LoN/Vampire Counts army to the same extent, as my Tomb Kings, which were my second ever WFB army!) So partly its nostalgia, partly its the fact that I still enjoy using those models, and partly its that I'd like to paint something new in that style (*eyes the reaper and mantic undead again...*) I'd be happy to see a "Tomb Kings like" faction as part of Death (albeit probably not led by Settra for the reasons discussed above), I'd be happy to see them as a renegade faction rebelling against Nagash, or as part of Order honestly. So long as I had cool Egyptian minis to put on my shelf, and occasionally roll out on the battlefield I'd be happy. I don't think that is likely to happen any time soon, and thankfully I was able to finish my collection when they discontinued the range, so there aren't any models i'm particularly missing. A made for order run would be good if it let me fill out a couple of the army lists I can't quite field with my current collection. I'm not holding out too much hope, but I'd definitely be on board if they do bring them back at any point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Along with Bretonians I don’t think we’ll be seeing them back. There was an opportunity for a Necrotect style faction with the big stuff but they didn’t go for it. I do think you are well served with Tyler Mengel’s fan made Battletome it’s really good and GW has given it a bit of nod so I’d crack on with that and there’s always the possibility to counts-as with the updated factions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 New response on this subject apparently: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davariel Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I think there's a very good reason that there's still interest in Tomb Kings. I mean, if you look at Bretonnia (the obvious comparison) there just isn't the same enthusiasm. Bretonnia - unlike the TK - just isn't that interesting (and I say that as an old Bret player). They had a ton of beautiful models, but they wouldn't really add much to AoS. Tomb Kings, on the other hand? They're a *really* interesting faction, conceptually speaking. They're undead, but they break most of the usual fantasy undead rules. They're not particularly evil (well, no more than living despots, anyway). They're associated with light and the sun. They're adept at ranged warfare. Yes, we can all just cry "but they're just Egyptians, that's not unique or interesting", but on a spectrum of fantasy undead I think they actually are pretty interesting. And the reason I think we get so much interest in them still is because that stands out against the current GA: Death, which is gothic undead and... that's about it? Don't get me wrong, I love the death range to, well, death - but it's a bit one dimensional in some ways. Tomb Kings are just different, and that diversity has an appeal. Whether or not that goes anywhere, who knows - if we get a couple of very different and unique death factions the interest might well die down. But until we do I don't think the Tomb Kings will be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Tomb Kings are very much still alive in AoS 2. Why shouldn't they be? They have points and warscrolls - that's all you need to field them within the current game mechanics. It's not like you need to create your own fan-made rules and points in order to make them playable. So they didn't get a points update in the GHB 2018 - so what? All that means is that the most current Tomb Kings points values are to be found in a different book. Anyone who says that Tomb Kings (or indeed Bretonnia) is not a 'legal' army is pushing their own opinion and agenda as fact. Never forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Jamie the Jasper said: Tomb Kings are very much still alive in AoS 2. Why shouldn't they be? ... Because they're dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.