Maturin Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, Lucur said: Swords ARE better if you have access to buffs that concern the wound roll. Hammers are better if you have buffs to your hit roll. As Liberators have lay low the tyrant, inherently they sometimes come with a hit buff built in, so hammers is the standard choice (besides the cheap models from sc and old starter coming with only hammers and shields). At the end of the day the damage output of a squad of Liberators is negligible and whether you do an average .2 or .22 damage per attack is no difference, so go with what you prefer the looks of. They're only there to take up space, tick battleline and hold out until damage can be directed at their adversary from elsewhere. Just out of curiosity, what's the buff to wound we have in the SCE or order army ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Astral Templars CA gives +1 wound for a unit against a hero. Knights Excelsior and Tempest Lords give re-roll 1s to wound. Which you probably aren't taking, and probably shouldn't be buffing generic battleline unit if you are. I put the numbers into my spreadsheet today. Hammers and swords are dead even on actual wounds assigned vs something with sv4+. Rerolling 1s doesn't change that. If I remember correctly, +1 to hit for a unit of 4 liberators creates a difference in average wounds that get through saves from 1.67 for sword/shield and 1.76 for hammers. 0.09 damage dealt. That's not a difference that will ever matter on the tabletop. With a -1 hit debuff, hammers do about 0.11 damage less. It really couldn't matter much less. Use what you think looks cooler. I went with swords because I feel like the better hit stat will make them more consistent. Can't make your wound rolls if you can't make your hit rolls. In reality, swords and hammers are both going to do about 1 point of damage per round. Sometimes, they'll do 2 damage. And rarely, they might do more than that. But that extra 0.09 will never show up because you can't roll 0.09. Edited July 23, 2019 by crkhobbit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucur Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Maturin said: Just out of curiosity, what's the buff to wound we have in the SCE or order army ? Empower and Celestial Blades, though i'm not sure Empower can be cast on Liberators (and too lazy to look it up ). Nor do i think it should, it's more efficient on units that actually deal the damage. Looked it up, Empower can be cast on Redeemers, which Liberators are. There you go, swords are better now! Edited July 23, 2019 by Lucur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fundre Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I'd love some feedback on my list. My local scene is small with only about 20 players and only 10 who regularly play. Our meta is influenced a lot by the UK meta (I'm based in South Africa) and we have a decent mix of all forces represented. Skaven with aboms/stormfiends/9jezzails lists are doing well and tzeentch is very tough atm here. We play competitively although tournements here are few and far between. So my list (played 7, won 5 - drawn 2) Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: GhurLeadersLord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (220)- General- Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm - Spell: Azyrite Halo- Mount Trait: Savage LoyaltyLord-Castellant (120)Lord-Ordinator (140)Battleline10 x Sequitors (260)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite GreatmacesUnits10 x Evocators (440)- 1x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades5 x Evocators (220)- 5x Grandstaves- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of LightningWar MachinesCelestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 My biggest issue is keeping the Arcanum alive so advice on items would be great. A unit of 10 evos wreck face! 3 ballistae with ordinater is an amazing character sniping unit (and I just dont get the same results with anything less than 3 + ordinator) And finally, i feel like i need a relictor and 5 more sequitors however I'm reluctant to drop 5 evos to acheive this. Any other general feedback would be appreciated. I have tried other lists similar but take more characters and combat units instead of the ballistae deestrike bomb but none of those lists work as well. I find the above list compestes well in every phase of the game and in some phases we do amazing. Thanks for reading! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Lucur said: Empower and Celestial Blades, though i'm not sure Empower can be cast on Liberators (and too lazy to look it up ). Nor do i think it should, it's more efficient on units that actually deal the damage. Looked it up, Empower can be cast on Redeemers, which Liberators are. There you go, swords are better now! Only celestial blades gives +1 to wound, to any Stormcast unit. Empower gives failed wound rerolls to Sacrosanct or Redeemer. Hammers are still better imo 😛 Edited July 23, 2019 by Maturin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 8 hours ago, Maturin said: And there are also way more buffs to hit than to wound ;). But as Lucur said, Libs aren't here to dish the damage! Yeah I don't tend to buff Liberators... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucur Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I'm not saying anyone should intend to use Liberators to deal damage, i'm just saying the difference is negligible between hammers and blades. And, in strange circumstances, the blades could pull ahead (though hammers typically do better thanks to lltt). Also i'm a mean advocatus diaboli kind of person, for arguments' sake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchleuderMann2 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 @Fundre to protect your arcanum against tzeentch i recommend ignax scales which gives you a 4+ save against mortal wounds or the obsidian amulet from our battletome which gives you a 4+ chance to ignore the effects of all spells to your arcanum, so it also helps against debuffs at your LA. Against a missilefocussed skaven army i would use the mirror shield (hope that this is the right translation) so his jezzails have -2 to hit against the carrier of the artefact. some general advices for your army: you have great damage and tankiness in meele fights but also a lack of mobility. i dont know exactly the lists of your skaven and tzeentch opponents but in my area the tzeentch players just play some ****** battleline whoose only task is to prevent my units killing his wizards. therefore i would recommend some heroes to buff the "speed" of your units or something which kill pressure that he has to be afraid maybe dracothian guard etc. personally i like to have some autobanns against tzeentch to due to the fact that it will be hard to bann anything if the opponent has +2 to cast 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaffaBones Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) On 7/17/2019 at 10:49 PM, PJetski said: In my experience it's not even worth casting since it can be negated by simply moving >6" away from the model before shooting, and there's a chance they can come back to harm you. If you want to stop shooting you should run stuff like Tempestors (12" -1 hit aura, harder to remove), Fulminators (+1 save against shooting), and Geminids (-1 hit debuff that sticks). Also worth mentioning that hit debuffs do nothing against WLC and Thundertusks, don't do enough to stop Longstrikes since they hit on 2+ and get mortal wounds on unmodified 6, but they are great against Jezzails, Skyfires (kinda), Auric Hearthguard, Dracoths, Shootas, and Ballistae. Try positioning the vortex a little more strategically so once they get into range to shoot they are also within the vortex. The vortex also has a nice inbuilt racism against chaos, which tend to be most horde builds nowadays. But your right, geminids should be preferred. Edited July 23, 2019 by JaffaBones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaffaBones Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Question came up recently: Can we spend the command point in Anvil to activate the Raptors, then teleport, then shoot? Does the shooting have to happen immediately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, JaffaBones said: Question came up recently: Can we spend the command point in Anvil to activate the Raptors, then teleport, then shoot? Does the shooting have to happen immediately? Its not start of hero phase, just You can use this command ability in your hero phase You have to teleport near an Anvils of the Heldenhammer hero (9")or general (18") though or you can't trigger it (which I had an opponent do once, phew!) /edit - didn't notice the spend CP, teleport, activate CP hijinx here - nopes! Edited July 23, 2019 by Turragor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 You have to resolve one ability before you use the next one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 You can use the command point to shoot. Resolve the shooting. Then teleport. Then move phase, then shoot phase, then shoot their normal. You cannot teleport in between using the CA and resolving the CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucur Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just browsed tha Vanguard-Palladors warscroll, is it possible (raw, i'm not considering moral issues here ) to use the lunar blade after a shooting attack with an enemy within 1"? Because, that's what i read there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stus67 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Any thoughts on this list? Or ways to make it better? I got trounced by my friend who plays khorne with 4 bloodthirsters of incessant rage and the tyrants battalion. Against a blightkings list I did fairly decent, but had trouble with objectives. Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: AqshyLeadersLord-Arcanum (160)- General- Trait: Staunch Defender Lord-Exorcist (120)Knight-Incantor (140)Knight-Incantor (140)Drakesworn Templar (460)- Storm Lance- Artefact: Ignax's Scales Lord-Castellant (120)Battleline10 x Sequitors (260)- Tempest Blades and Soulshields- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Tempest Blades and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces5 x Sequitors (130)- Tempest Blades and Soulshields- 3x Stormsmite GreatmacesBattalionsGrand Convocation (130)Endless Spells / TerrainEverblaze Comet (100)Aethervoid Pendulum (50)Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)Total: 2000 / 2000Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlanceOnASix Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 17 hours ago, CommissarRotke said: The rules she comes with are "officially" just a Prime, but you're exactly right and the cape she gets means it's a no-brainer proxy. Questor seems like more of a narrative pick than matched though. I made mine into a Lord Veritant Shes a cool model to play with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Mercury Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 BOOM! Stop writing lists... you, re welcome. Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: GhurLeadersDrakesworn Templar (460)- General- Arc Hammer- Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm - Mount Trait: Storm-wingedDrakesworn Templar (460)- Storm LanceDrakesworn Templar (460)- Storm LanceLord-Arcanum on Tauralon (320)- Spell: StarfallBattleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammers5 x Liberators (100)- WarhammersTotal: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 88 5 1 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Sir Mercury said: BOOM! Stop writing lists... you, re welcome. Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: GhurLeadersDrakesworn Templar (460)- General- Arc Hammer- Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm - Mount Trait: Storm-wingedDrakesworn Templar (460)- Storm LanceDrakesworn Templar (460)- Storm LanceLord-Arcanum on Tauralon (320)- Spell: StarfallBattleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammers5 x Liberators (100)- WarhammersTotal: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 88 This is the kind of degenerate list building I want to cultivate! Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: GhurDrakesworn Templar (460)- General- Arc Hammer- Trait: Champion of the Realms - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm Drakesworn Templar (460)- Storm Lance- Mount Trait: Storm-wingedCelestant-Prime (340)Luminark of Hysh With White Battlemage (240)- AlliesSpellweaver (100)- Heartwood Staff- Allies5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows- 1x Shockbolt Bows5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x GrandhammersMalevolent Maelstrom (10)Quicksilver Swords (30)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 340 / 400Wounds: 86 But why oh why would you tweak the perfection of 3 dragons? I've only 1 dragon to paint (though I'll have to fix my LCoSD so he can be magnetised as a Templar) and Im there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stus67 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 What are some good artifacts to load onto a stardrake? And is there any way to survive a bloodthirster in combat with one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 hours ago, GlanceOnASix said: I made mine into a Lord Veritant Shes a cool model to play with. Pics please 👀 I have not attached her shield yet so I'm willing to try some extra conversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 4 hours ago, stus67 said: Any thoughts on this list? Or ways to make it better? You need some cavalry or shooting in this list, am not sure how you'd want to switch it up to achieve that though. Htf is your friend taking 4 bloodthirster though? That matchup feels more like an issue of him cheesing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuroyume Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, stus67 said: What are some good artifacts to load onto a stardrake? And is there any way to survive a bloodthirster in combat with one? Ignax Scale. Ignore mortal wounds on 4+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stus67 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said: You need some cavalry or shooting in this list, am not sure how you'd want to switch it up to achieve that though. Htf is your friend taking 4 bloodthirster though? That matchup feels more like an issue of him cheesing They're cheap enough to run 4 along with hounds as battleline. We're both going to a tournament in August so he's not putting on the brakes anytime soon. I have the models in my collection to run Anvilstrike, but I'm trying to avoid it because of how boring it is to play and how poorly I play it. I'm also trying to find a reason to dust off my Drakesworn. Things I also own, x3 Ballista + Ordinator 20+ Sequitors only 10 Liberators almost every hero in the line I've thought about dropping the Grand Convocation and abandon the endless spells (even though I like playing them) and just running 3 ballista with my Stardrake, but I'm not sure how well that would run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Looking at Decimators for a Warrior Brotherhood list. Using my MS Paint skills, looks like if they pile up a horde unit with 25mm bases 3 rows deep, a single Decimator can get up to 13 attacks pretty reasonably. For only 6 Decimators, that's about 35 damage after saves vs something with a 6+. Then you've got ~4d3 from the Starsouls. This list works really well in my head. Can't wait to get a practice game or two in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkhobbit Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Can you ru 8 minutes ago, stus67 said: I'm also trying to find a reason to dust off my Drakesworn. Can you run it as a LConSD? There was a list that got 8th at BrisVegas that I thought was cool. He had LAoGC and more seqs instead of libs, but points changed so: 180 LA on foot 120 LCastellant 560 LC on SD 440 Seq x20 200 Libsx5x2 440 Evo x10 60 Cogs Edited July 23, 2019 by crkhobbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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