AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, mystycalchemy said:

I believe its the extra enhancements from Warlord/Command Entourage Core Battalions.

When I did a cursory check yesterday, I didn't see anything saying you could take Unique Enhancements multiple times, I also didn't see anything that says you couldn't take Unique Enhancements multiple times. So its very much a grey area until clarified what extra enhancements we can take with the Magnificent Core Battalion ability.

Interesting. I'll have a couple reads back through them again today. 

[Kelsicle]

Are there any other instances where a warscroll/special rule or ability relies on a very specific order of activation that might support the argument that this is intended?

[Joseph Mackay]

10 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think this is where you are misunderstanding my argument. You don't need to be able to cast another spell if a special rule tells you that you can cast a spell. Since the spell lore rule says "cast a spell from the Lore" then it doesn't matter that they can only cast one spell per turn normally. Casting a spell from the Lore through this special rule is not bound by their warscroll limitation of one spell per turn.

As I've stated before, nobody here knows if this is intentional or not. It is inconsistent with every other spell lore phrasing in the game but that doesn't mean it is wrong. There are many rules in the game that break the norms and are totally unique, such as Aetherwings moving in the enemy charge phase.

There are even other instances in the game where you can cast additional spells despite a limit of casting per turn. The Whitefire Tome allows a hero that can cast 0 spells to cast a spell. In the 2.0 realm rules for Ghyran there was a command ability that let you cast Shield of Thorns (I think?) and it could be used even if you aren't a WIZARD and regardless of how many spells that hero attempted to cast previously in the phase.

You realise that this argument would mean that every wizard who knows a lore spell would be able to cast it in addition to their warscroll spells regardless of how many spells the warscroll says they can cast right? So you’re ok with Teclis casting 22 spells a turn

[RedemptionUK]

I never thought there would be a debate over the number of spells Evocators can cast.

[Kelsicle]

3 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

You realise that this argument would mean that every wizard who knows a lore spell would be able to cast it in addition to their warscroll spells regardless of how many spells the warscroll says they can cast right? So you’re ok with Teclis casting 22 spells a turn

While I appreciate the point you are making Teclis is a poor example (His was the first scroll i checked for a counter argument too). The Archmage ability determines how many spells he can cast and specifically says that he can cast up to 4 spells, so there is an upper limit of 4 for Teclis.

[Jaskier]

13 hours ago, PJetski said:

They write strange rules all the time. Maybe it is their intent, and there is no way any of us can know either way. It definitely seems silly because it is inconsistent with the rest of the rules in the game, but just because it seems silly doesn't mean it is wrong or a mistake - I'll point out Aetherwings moving in the enemy charge phase again. 

No, the Whitefire Tome does not specify how many spells the unit can cast. It just says it can cast that spell. It does not make the unit a WIZARD that can cast 1 spell and specify that it can only cast that spell, it just says you can cast that spell.

The number of spells Evocators can cast per turn does not matter. If a special rule says "you can attempt to cast this spell" then you can try to cast it even if you can't cast any spells normally, or even if you've already cast all your normal spells. 

If they wanted Evocators to choose between casting Empower and the Lore spell they would have added another clause that said "If an EVOCATOR attempts to cast Empower then it cannot cast any other spells this turn" or "They can cast this spell instead of casting Empower" or something along those lines.

Personal opinions about intent aside, the way it is written right now allows you to cast a Lore spell regardless of how many other spells you can or can't cast. It specifies that you can't cast any other spells after that Lore spell, but the timing matters so you can cast Empower and then the Lore spell.

The reality of the situation is that we're arguing over whether a rule that says "it cannot attempt to cast any other spells in that hero phase" should be interpreted in a way that it is only relevant if a specific spell is cast before a different spell. The intent of the rule is not up for debate. 

Further, there is nothing that specifically overrides the limitation that they can only cast one spell a turn. The Age of Sigmar ruleset is permissive, as I stated earlier; you can do a particular thing if a rule tells you that you can, provided it doesn't clash with another rule. You can run when you move, but you can't run when you retreat. You can make missile attacks at any unit in your weapons' range, but only if your unit is not within 3" of an enemy unit. In this scenario, Evocators can only cast one spell per hero phase; the Errata lets them cast one spell from the Lore of Invigoration, but it does not let them cast more than one spell per hero phase. If it did, it would specifically say so, but it doesn't. 

This also isn't a case of "special rule trumps core rule" because the Evocators' special rule is that they can only cast one spell, and the special rule in the Errata does not alter that fact. 

The way it is written is that you can either cast Empower or a spell from the Lore of Invigoration, but you can still only cast one spell per hero phase.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Jaskier

[Mark Williams]

8 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

I believe its the extra enhancements from Warlord/Command Entourage Core Battalions.

When I did a cursory check yesterday, I didn't see anything saying you could take Unique Enhancements multiple times, I also didn't see anything that says you couldn't take Unique Enhancements multiple times. So its very much a grey area until clarified what extra enhancements we can take with the Magnificent Core Battalion ability.

I just spent 20 minutes reading and re-reading these sections over and over.

The 3rd paragraph under Stormcast Mount Traits, which was deleted, had two qualifying statements:

1) It explained a method for getting more than 1 mount trait.

2) It explained that if you got more than one mount trait, they did not intend for you to stack more than one on a single hero.

I believe that the first qualifier was the one that they intended to replace with the new rules, and that the 2nd one was not intended to be erased by deleting that paragraph. Basically, it's an accidental "gaf" by GW, probably because they either made a mistake and didn't think about it, or because they felt that it was an obvious, implicit rule that didn't need stating.

That I'm aware of, there are no other enhancements that can be "stacked" in such a way. As I read through the rules, they account for the situation by qualifying that you can only have one of each, for each character/hero in your army. I suspect the reason that it isn't covered in the core rules is that there's no section whatsoever for mount traits at all (again, probably a mistake via poorly written rules).

Everything I'm looking at points to poorly written rules, probably overlooked on a technicality of deleting a paragraph while trying to address some other aspect of the rules and accidentally deleting something else.

I would also point to some other logic within this thread that just because a rule doesn't say whether or not you can do something, doesn't give you permission to do it. At the very BEST, it's an unknown that needs an answer from GW, and not permission to do it until someone says you can't.

In absence of an answer from GW, it should be a discussion between yourself and your opponent, or in the case of an event, the TO (or the body that makes up the TOs).

My belief, after reading everything, is that if GW were to FAQ this, they would say that each mount can only have 1 trait, and that they goofed by deleting that last sentence. I feel like this is gonna get FAQed real quick. If I were on a TO panel I wouldn't allow mount trait stacking based on the above reasoning.... I'd be surprised, and a bit sad, if some TOs did... I can't see any consistency in the other rules or the way enhancements work in general that would make an exception for just these like that, without explicitly stating it.

Edit: Just having an in depth discussion with a friend who I game with, we're thinking that the ability to take duplicate artefacts is also probably an unintended omission as well - seems like the Enhancements section in general was really poorly written...

Edit 2: Ah, I just saw they covered it in the Errata FAQ: 27.3.3 – Artefacts of Power Add: ‘An army cannot include duplicates of the same artefact of power.’

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mark Williams

[Turragor]

8 hours ago, Kelsicle said:

Are there any other instances where a warscroll/special rule or ability relies on a very specific order of activation that might support the argument that this is intended?

Why yes! Of a sort. It needed an FAQ:

• Longstrike Raptors shooting +6 in the hero phase because they haven't moved (yet)

[AdamR]

Oh man, I've not played AoS since the start of the pandemic and the Dominion box got me keen to start again... But the last few pages of this thread are making me regret it! As if losing Skyborne Slayers wasn't bad enough!🤣🤣🤣

Anyway, while I like the new models, I wasn't keen on Yndastra's feathery wings - it just didn't sit right with all the other winged heroes.

So, 1 issue of mortal realms to the rescue and she has Knight Azyros wings!

What do we think? Good idea? Terrible mistake? I do still have the feathery wings to convert back...

Edited August 5, 2021 by AdamR

[Joseph Mackay]

7 hours ago, Kelsicle said:

While I appreciate the point you are making Teclis is a poor example (His was the first scroll i checked for a counter argument too). The Archmage ability determines how many spells he can cast and specifically says that he can cast up to 4 spells, so there is an upper limit of 4 for Teclis.

And there is an upper limit of 1 for Evocators 

[Maturin]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:03 AM, Turragor said:

This is perfectly logical. And then I'm thinking of list building as a kind of prisoner's dilemma where you don't take the worst cheese in case someone takes the worst cheese against you. And then the lists are unveiled and you open your eyes to see:

I love this hobby haha

My dream come true. Give me a week, no more cheese.

[edmc78]

3 hours ago, AdamR said:

Oh man, I've not played AoS since the start of the pandemic and the Dominion box got me keen to start again... But the last few pages of this thread are making me regret it! As if losing Skyborne Slayers wasn't bad enough!🤣🤣🤣

Anyway, while I like the new models, I wasn't keen on Yndastra's feathery wings - it just didn't sit right with all the other winged heroes.

So, 1 issue of mortal realms to the rescue and she has Knight Azyros wings!

What do we think? Good idea? Terrible mistake? I do still have the feathery wings to convert back...

Superb. Works fantastically. 

[PrimeElectrid]

So speaking of FAQs.

Seems GW now publish these on a Friday. They have also moved to 4 weeks from release, up from 2, but actually it’s really 5 weeks (it’s the first Friday 4 weeks after the release weekend).

As it looks increasingly like the release weekend is September 4th (sigh) it means we can expect the FAQ October 8th.

Bad news for anyone attending events which require an FAQ, as you probably won’t be able to play the new Stormcast book until October 16th at the earliest.

[jhamslam]

2 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

So speaking of FAQs.

Seems GW now publish these on a Friday. They have also moved to 4 weeks from release, up from 2, but actually it’s really 5 weeks (it’s the first Friday 4 weeks after the release weekend).

As it looks increasingly like the release weekend is September 4th (sigh) it means we can expect the FAQ October 8th.

Bad news for anyone attending events which require an FAQ, as you probably won’t be able to play the new Stormcast book until October 16th at the earliest.

yeah this bodes ill for the range release of sce. im expecting them too eek it out over 3 months or so, meaning i wont be able to play the full new range in Texas at the GW Open

Damn. 

[PrimeElectrid]

First two day event in 18 months tomorrow. Smooth brain Stormcast list with Gavriel, 6 annihilators and 10 Evocators. Grand strategy is dominating presence. Table everyone or go home let’s gooo

[xking]

3 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

First two day event in 18 months tomorrow. Smooth brain Stormcast list with Gavriel, 6 annihilators and 10 Evocators. Grand strategy is dominating presence. Table everyone or go home let’s gooo

Overwhelming force can solve most problems.

[xking]

These images really help me, mixing the old and the new stuff, makes the new stuff much more palpable to me. 

[jhamslam]

5 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

First two day event in 18 months tomorrow. Smooth brain Stormcast list with Gavriel, 6 annihilators and 10 Evocators. Grand strategy is dominating presence. Table everyone or go home let’s gooo

this is a wildly irresponsible SCE list. 

I love it. 

Just have a plan for the god models. thats all this game is now

[PrimeElectrid]

2 hours ago, jhamslam said:

this is a wildly irresponsible SCE list. 

I love it. 

Just have a plan for the god models. thats all this game is now

The plan is to ignore them and kill everything else 

[Lior'Lec]

Hey all, with the increased size for the Dracothian Guard units I now need to double mine but when I checked the store they’re listed as “No longer available online”. Are these models (as well as the Sacrosanct cats and the storm drake) being discontinued, repackaged, or what? I don’t normally buy direct from GW but use their store before making orders at my LGS so not sure what the various “unavailable” types really mean. 

[RedemptionUK]

1 hour ago, Lior'Lec said:

Hey all, with the increased size for the Dracothian Guard units I now need to double mine but when I checked the store they’re listed as “No longer available online”. Are these models (as well as the Sacrosanct cats and the storm drake) being discontinued, repackaged, or what? I don’t normally buy direct from GW but use their store before making orders at my LGS so not sure what the various “unavailable” types really mean. 

Increased unit size? It's still units of 2 in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2021.

[Lior'Lec]

36 minutes ago, RedemptionUK said:

Increased unit size? It's still units of 2 in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2021.

They used to have a minimum unit size of 1 back when I first got some. Yeah, way back when I know. 

[PrimeElectrid]

13 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

The plan is to ignore them and kill everything else 

2 wins and a minor loss, no god characters yet…

Edit: ****** drawn Archaon tomorrow 🤦‍♂️

Edited August 7, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[PrimeElectrid]

17 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

2 wins and a minor loss, no god characters yet…

Edit: ****** drawn Archaon tomorrow 🤦‍♂️

****** archaon 😒

[PrimeElectrid]

Translocation is the best thing in this book currently 🤣

Yndrasta is a massive liability. Can’t kill monsters, can’t kill 5 wound heroes, can’t stand up to any pressure from anything. Died every single game after failing to kill something. Would be much better off with annihilators and an Imperatant.

Speaking of which, annihilators with Gavriel are incredible. I am not surprised that lists spamming 5-6 are doing well and I would 💯 do the same if another book wasn’t coming in (**sigh**) 4 weeks.

Bringing back 10 vindictors is also gold

Edited August 8, 2021 by PrimeElectrid